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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    .G. wrote: »
    I can't see any photo , looks like its just me!

    It's gone for me aswell. The same pictures are here if you just scroll down.
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/irishtransport/2019-dublin-bus-fleet-list-t12537-s600.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭ .G.


    That looks miles better than the current DB livery and is streets ahead of the car crash that is the NTA livery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Saw a picture of an Enviro 400 MMC tester in the livery for this trial

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/eybusman/47853497891/


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    That bus looks good so far. With the decals applied on it; it will probably look amazing when it's with DB.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    No front fog lights fitted. I honestly see them only going with Wright....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    No front fog lights fitted. I honestly see them only going with Wright....

    Would it not be possible for them to go with the Enviro 400MMC on the the Volvo B5LH chassis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Would it not be possible for them to go with the Enviro 400MMC on the the Volvo B5LH chassis.

    That I wouldn't know but I'm sure it could.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,899 ✭✭✭✭ Gael23


    When are these entering full service


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,314 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Would it not be possible for them to go with the Enviro 400MMC on the the Volvo B5LH chassis.

    That I wouldn't know but I'm sure it could.

    Good luck in getting ADL to body anything Volvo. They really don't want to do it. Volvo are their biggest rival. If they did do it there would be a premium.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭ StreetLight


    Gael23 wrote: »
    When are these entering full service

    It'll take a few weeks to train in all the drivers and maintenance staff.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    ...That is the question.

    Reading the Irish Time piece,it all sounds (and looks) good.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-takes-delivery-of-first-hybrid-double-decker-vehicles-1.3899918

    Interesting bit of flesh-on-bones in relation to the size of order going forward.
    “In the next week or so, a procurement process will get under way for some 600 double-deck hybrid buses to be delivered over a five-year period. The vast majority of these will be deployed in Dublin, although some will operate in regional cities,” the spokesman added.

    “We would then hope to sign a contract with the winning bidder before the end 2019, with the prospect of the first batch of the new buses being delivered next year.”

    That's c.120 vehicles per anum,which,based upon projected expansion of the Greater Dublin Region,does'nt really allow for much wriggle room,unless other measures,such as extending the current 14 year service life,are introduced.

    Given the current (:rolleyes:) preoccupation with Electrical propulsion as the only show-in-town,it is somewhat surprising to note the NTA rather brusquely dismissing the 100% sustainable Bio-gas option which is attracting the attention of both Trucking and Public Transport operators in the UK.
    The NTA recently announced fully electric double-decker buses could be seen on Cork streets within five years. It expects electric buses rather than biogas-fuelled vehicles are more likely to be deployed.

    Bio-gas,specifically when generated from Agricultural Anerobic Digestor Systems,offers a significant degree of synergy between Irelands largest polluting sector (Agriculture) and Irelands least significant polluting sector (Public Transport),and really requires a somewhat more considered study from the NTA,in advance of taking decisions which may not work out quite as smoothly as anticipated.

    It seems that a certain sector of the NTA's senior staff consider Gas powered vehicles to be "Old" technology.....If this is the case,then it takes somewhat from the Authority's role as a Public Transport Oversight body.

    With none of the current alternative fuels being commercially self-sustaining,it will fall of the Government to subsidise the transfer from the traditional Diesel fleets,some of the figures quoted in this article are interesting,to say the least...

    https://utilityweek.co.uk/gas-powered-buses-are-better-value-claims-trade-body/
    The NGVN claim the figures from the latest funding announcement mean an average public subsidy of more than £130,000 per electric bus and just £28,000 per gas-powered bus.

    The trade body also pointed to a previous funding round in 2015, which showed an average subsidy of £142,000 for all-electric vehicles, compared to just under £43,000 for each biomethane bus purchased by councils in Nottingham and Reading.

    Reading Buses,in particular,has backed the Gas alternative,simply because of it's proven benefits in intensive public transport operations...

    https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/reading-buses-gets-green-government-11661174

    Chief Engineer,John Bickerton,was very clear about the reasons for his company's decision...
    Chief Engineer John Bickerton said: “This bid will allow us to continue the expansion of our gas bus fleet as we bring our double deck gas buses online.

    “We hope that other operators will see what we are doing with gas as a cost-effective alternative to the battery headaches of electric buses, costs of hybrids and the complexity of a Euro Vl diesel.

    “Gas is a clean, simple and reliable way to deliver mass transit and we have got big plans for the future in Reading too."

    John Bickerton is stating publicly,what many senior Bus Engineering figures will privately admit to thinking in the face of huge PR from the E V sector.

    Perhaps the most telling quote is....
    “The vehicles are also among the most reliable in our fleet and the engineers like their simplicity".

    Quite often,in Public Bus Transport,simplicity actually IS the key. :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    If the NTA are opting for Hybrid buses; what happens if the EU favours bio-gas buses instead by placing an EU Directive here?

    What is the NTA's official position on using bio-gas vehicles in Ireland if they were not opting to use them in the first place?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    If the NTA are opting for Hybrid buses; what happens if the EU favours bio-gas buses instead by placing an EU Directive here?

    What is the NTA's official position on using bio-gas vehicles in Ireland if they were not opting to use them in the first place?

    It appears that the "Official" position is Electric.

    The EU directive element largely relates to the actual level of emissions,rather than how that level is achieved,and thus far,the EV sector has proven more robust in getting it's technology out there,even if it is less than fully operable in real-time.

    It should also be borne in mind (Particularly in the wake of the Huawei issue),that EV and hybrid performance depends largely upon Battery technology & performance,with the battery sector now effectively dominated by Chinese R & D and production elements.

    Whether they admit it or not,the EU may well be listening a bit closer to the USA/China debate than we might think initially.

    I personally feel that the NTA should be putting more research into the various Gas powered options,as not to do so,may well leave us exposed to far less controllable external developments.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    One of the new hybrids has just left Conyngham Road and headed west.

    Livery looks well in the flesh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    One of the new hybrids has just left Conyngham Road and headed west.

    Livery looks well in the flesh.

    Probably out for driver familarisation training. Will be allocated to the 25a/b when it enters passenger service


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    AlekSmart, the problem with Bio-gas vehicles, is that they aren't zero emissions at the tail pipe. They do produce NOX at the tail pipe, an increasingly serious health issue in our cities.

    By comparison, full BEV's produce no local emissions at all, which is a major win in terms of peoples health in our cities.

    At best, bio-gas buses are seen as a temporary, imperfect solution, that will eventually be replaced by full BEVs. But bio-gas buses require lots of new infrastructure to be put into place to support them. But then that infrastructure would go to waste in 5 years time when BEV double deckers start hitting the market.

    Hybrids of course aren't perfect either and do of course emit NOX too, but at levels similar to bio-gas buses, but without expensive new infrastructure. So I'd assume they see those as an easier temporary solution until full BEV double deckers become the norm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »
    AlekSmart, the problem with Bio-gas vehicles, is that they aren't zero emissions at the tail pipe. They do produce NOX at the tail pipe, an increasingly serious health issue in our cities.

    By comparison, full BEV's produce no local emissions at all, which is a major win in terms of peoples health in our cities.

    At best, bio-gas buses are seen as a temporary, imperfect solution, that will eventually be replaced by full BEVs. But bio-gas buses require lots of new infrastructure to be put into place to support them. But then that infrastructure would go to waste in 5 years time when BEV double deckers start hitting the market.

    Hybrids of course aren't perfect either and do of course emit NOX too, but at levels similar to bio-gas buses, but without expensive new infrastructure. So I'd assume they see those as an easier temporary solution until full BEV double deckers become the norm.

    Indeed,all well n' good for sure,however 600 Hybrid buses,with a premium of c.30% is quite a price for a "temporary" solution.

    I would be less certain of the temporary,imperfect element of bio-gas,as I believe the current,less than transparent nature of where and how,major Electric Vehicle manufacturers source their Batteries could still surface as an issue.

    With China now the dominant force in EV battery technology,a great many of the traditional Bus Manufacturers can,hand-on-heart,state "Golly,we had no idea" etc etc should any embarrassing ecological issues surface.

    Sourcing ecologically grown Coffee beans for our lattes is one thing,but sourcing similarly produced Lithium or Cobalt for our Car & Bus batteries may be less important to the greater population ?

    The UK's Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership,has produced a very unbiased and clear guide to the various options available,complete with comparative figures,which,I suggest,should be widely circulated here in Dublin ?

    https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/projects/bus-working-group/lowemissionbusguide.htm

    Having visited Reading Buses Great Knollys St facility,I was hugely impressed with the neat and tidy Gas infrastructure,which uses Gas direct from the domestic mains supply pipework,which is then compressed on-site and pumped directly into the vehicles,eliminating the requirement for large storage vessels,so long a fixture in the diesel bus world.

    Hybrid and Full EV technology has also a requirement for specific infrastructure,not all of it cheap n cheerful either,the assessment of which I assume the NTA will be using the trials for.

    That being said,I remain puzzled at the time-frame which the Authority is putting forward,which sees it specifying and tendering for technology,which it's own trials will barely have managed to identify,let alone compare ?

    I remain of the view that ecologically produced biomethane,is a far more robust alternative for Irelands situation,than relying upon fuel storage raw material sourced in the darkest (and poorest) regions of Africa and other similarly challenged regions ?

    Either the NTA commit to meaningful trials and comparisons,or,it admits that the decision has already been taken at executive level,and a "winner" already exists in advance of the trial process.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Indeed,all well n' good for sure,however 600 Hybrid buses,with a premium of c.30% is quite a price for a "temporary" solution.

    Well first of all that 30% premium would be paid off with fuel savings....

    But then you also have the fact that Biogas buses have similar premiums over Euro 6 diesels, plus you have to build a facility to produce the biogas and inject into the Natural Gas network and then you have to build the infrastructure in the depot for the rather large CNG refuelling stations which convert the gas to Biomethane. €€€€€€

    Oh and you know you can't just use the normal consumer low pressure gas network. You have to get Board Gais to run high pressure pipes to each depot €€€€€

    Oh and you know this process uses large amounts of electricity, so you need to get the ESB to upgrade the electrical supply to every depot too... (at least this won't go to waste once they convert to BEV).

    This is all a very expensive undertaking for every depot. WAY more then hydbrid buses cost.

    And the worst thing about it, it all goes to waste in just a few short years once the BEV deckers arrive, because the people of Ireland won't accept NOX producing vehicles, when a 100% NOX free solution exists. They will demand that we go all EV and zero tailpipe emissions, just like the BEV cars they will be buying themselves.

    BTW There are also a lot of environmental concerns about Biogas.

    For one, the ideal temperature for biogas generation is 37c. Clearly we don't get anywhere near those temps. So ironically a large amount of electricity needs to be used to produce heat for the process.

    So now we are using large amounts of electricity to produce biogas and then also large amounts of electricity to convert it back to biomethane in the depots!

    Obviously it would be much more efficient to supply that same electricity directly into a BEV's batteries. It is a similar issue hydrogen production faces.

    Also the process to create Biomethane releases other green house gases in the production process. It is far from a slam dunk.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I would be less certain of the temporary,imperfect element of bio-gas,as I believe the current,less than transparent nature of where and how,major Electric Vehicle manufacturers source their Batteries could still surface as an issue.

    With China now the dominant force in EV battery technology,a great many of the traditional Bus Manufacturers can,hand-on-heart,state "Golly,we had no idea" etc etc should any embarrassing ecological issues surface.

    Sourcing ecologically grown Coffee beans for our lattes is one thing,but sourcing similarly produced Lithium or Cobalt for our Car & Bus batteries may be less important to the greater population ?

    I'm disappointed. That is very FUD like from you! Have you been spending too much time in Biogas companies sales presentations!

    You'll be happy to hear, that most of the European car companies are pouring Billions into building their own battery factories here in Europe and they are all making the right noises about sourcing raw materials for batteries.

    Also I hate to say it, but the latte drinkers care more about cancer causing NOX and PMs being blown in their and their childrens faces by Dublin Bus then they do about some poor miner in China.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The UK's Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership,has produced a very unbiased and clear guide to the various options available,complete with comparative figures,which,I suggest,should be widely circulated here in Dublin ?

    https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/projects/bus-working-group/lowemissionbusguide.htm

    I have, very interesting and it shows how complex setting up Biogas infrastructure is. Just look how mad that chart they include under the Biogas section on the complexity of getting gas into a depot!!
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Hybrid and Full EV technology has also a requirement for specific infrastructure,not all of it cheap n cheerful either,the assessment of which I assume the NTA will be using the trials for.

    Hybrid are relatively simple, just new maintenance skills and tools. Such changes would also be required for Biogas buses and probably a lot more radical.

    Full EV would require substantial upgrade to the electrical supply to each depot and charging points. But then you need to do that electrical upgrade for Biogas anyway (electrical work, not chargers obviously). So not substantially different.

    The difference is, that going biogas would require extensive, expensive infrastructure that would end up going to waste in 6 to 12 years. Whereas once we go full EV, I don't forsee any change beyond that.

    Sure batteries will get more power dense, cheaper and lighter over time. But the electrical grid work won't really change once done.

    The future of all vehicles is BEV. Simple as that. You can't ignore the NOX emissions of Biogas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »
    Well first of all that 30% premium would be paid off with fuel savings....

    But then you also have the fact that Biogas buses have similar premiums over Euro 6 diesels, plus you have to build a facility to produce the biogas and inject into the Natural Gas network and then you have to build the infrastructure in the depot for the rather large CNG refuelling stations which convert the gas to Biomethane. €€€€€€

    Oh and you know you can't just use the normal consumer low pressure gas network. You have to get Board Gais to run high pressure pipes to each depot €€€€€

    Oh and you know this process uses large amounts of electricity, so you need to get the ESB to upgrade the electrical supply to every depot too... (at least this won't go to waste once they convert to BEV).

    This is all a very expensive undertaking for every depot. WAY more then hydbrid buses cost.

    And the worst thing about it, it all goes to waste in just a few short years once the BEV deckers arrive, because the people of Ireland won't accept NOX producing vehicles, when a 100% NOX free solution exists. They will demand that we go all EV and zero tailpipe emissions, just like the BEV cars they will be buying themselves.

    BTW There are also a lot of environmental concerns about Biogas.

    For one, the ideal temperature for biogas generation is 37c. Clearly we don't get anywhere near those temps. So ironically a large amount of electricity needs to be used to produce heat for the process.

    So now we are using large amounts of electricity to produce biogas and then also large amounts of electricity to convert it back to biomethane in the depots!

    Obviously it would be much more efficient to supply that same electricity directly into a BEV's batteries. It is a similar issue hydrogen production faces.

    Also the process to create Biomethane releases other green house gases in the production process. It is far from a slam dunk.

    I'm disappointed. That is very FUD like from you! Have you been spending too much time in Biogas companies sales presentations!

    You'll be happy to hear, that most of the European car companies are pouring Billions into building their own battery factories here in Europe and they are all making the right noises about sourcing raw materials for batteries.

    Also I hate to say it, but the latte drinkers care more about cancer causing NOX and PMs being blown in their and their childrens faces by Dublin Bus then they do about some poor miner in China.

    I have, very interesting and it shows how complex setting up Biogas infrastructure is. Just look how mad that chart they include under the Biogas section on the complexity of getting gas into a depot!!

    Hybrid are relatively simple, just new maintenance skills and tools. Such changes would also be required for Biogas buses and probably a lot more radical.

    Full EV would require substantial upgrade to the electrical supply to each depot and charging points. But then you need to do that electrical upgrade for Biogas anyway (electrical work, not chargers obviously). So not substantially different.

    The difference is, that going biogas would require extensive, expensive infrastructure that would end up going to waste in 6 to 12 years. Whereas once we go full EV, I don't forsee any change beyond that.

    Sure batteries will get more power dense, cheaper and lighter over time. But the electrical grid work won't really change once done.

    The future of all vehicles is BEV. Simple as that. You can't ignore the NOX emissions of Biogas.

    On that basis,bk,I'll proceed on the assumption that you're on-the-fence about Bio-Gas...... :)

    I'm certainly sitting on it,at the moment.

    Sadly,as yet,I've managed to escape the Bio-Gas sales industry presentations....with not a glass of chardonnay passing through my gullet...:(

    My opinions to date stem,from visits to operators and some brief drives in a couple of the vehicles,so very much seat-of-the-pants stuff,which I acknowledge will not cut it in the technological sense.

    What is undeniable,is that ANY of the new propulsion norms will be significantly more expensive,to purchase and initially operate,than the straight Diesels,particularly Euro 5 standard,that went before.

    This fiscal issue,particularly in large fast growing urban areas,will definitely reopen the debate about how (and who) funds public transport as the Private Sector alone may find it difficult to turn enough profit from the "Latte Drinkers" to sustain the investment,particularly as it's now not only Dublin Bus vehicles which are blowing NoX and Particulates into the chizzlers faces.

    I'm hoping that the Dept of Transport-NTA will allow the HEV trials,and the seperate but concurrent broader LEV comparison trial to run full term and be thoroughly studied,BEFORE placing the long-term orders,but indications are that the "Authorities" thinking is already set.

    https://www.gasnetworks.ie/business/natural-gas-in-transport/the-causeway-project/

    That could indeed, be a great bold leap forward,or then again,it might not.

    We shall see ? ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    I think the EU is backing a directive in using Bio-gas buses instead of Hybrid's because of the progress noted in bio-methane engines. Using bio-methane buses are known to be clean & renewable energy from their engines. Is there any main reason why they would advocate for them under EU law in that the faults with bio-gas are known to be well documented with them when talking about their big disadvantages in increasing worsening health problems. It's apparent on the NTA's word here in this country that they appear to have been heading in the right direction when they have had the correct analysis & advantages in trying to buy hybrid buses for our transport sector.

    The NTA have to do this now because they do have a significant part to play here in reducing emissions on our own transport sector. Buying alternative powered buses is only one part of the equation in keeping in line with their emission targets. They are planning to buy significant amounts of new rolling stock for the DART Expansion Programme in Dublin including the DART Underground project which won't come in over the next couple of years.

    There is an article here from last March about a bio-gas bus being trialled in Cork which had gone from Lapps Quay to the Centre of Marine & Renewable energy in Ringaskiddy.

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/irelands-first-biogas-bus-makes-maiden-voyage-today/

    This bus was part of the low emission bus trial taking place in Dublin & Cork.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    One of my reasons for wishing to see the Testing phase allowed to run its FULL course,is to avoid situations which occur in the "Real World" of Bus operation.

    https://electrek.co/2019/05/24/byd-indianapolis-electric-bus-range/
    Electric bus maker BYD has to install and pay for a wireless charging infrastructure upgrade in Indianapolis after its buses experienced “lower-than-expected distances on one charge” during testing.

    Indianapolis Public Transportation Corporation IndyGo announced it reached an agreement with BYD to get the new infrastructure. BYD will install wireless charging hardware for the buses, in addition to three wireless inductive charging pads along bus routes.

    With BYD now being the dominant player in the Electric bus market,and equally dominant in Battery technology and development,it's easy for them to stump up the cash to rejig this particular system.

    However,somewhat more of an issue for EV's might be this....
    This isn’t the only time BYD’s buses have encountered range issues. Albuquerque opted to “reject and return” 15 BYD electric buses last year. The buses experienced range, braking, and electrical issues, the Albuquerque Journal reported. Albuquerque then decided to order diesel buses.

    It's all to play for !!! ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    I think the EU is backing a directive in using Bio-gas buses instead of Hybrid's because of the progress noted in bio-methane engines.

    The EU Directive on the Promotion of Clean and Energy Efficient Road Transport Vehicles (aka the "Clean Vehicle Dorective") which comes into force in 2021 will not be specific to Bio-Gas, but rather it will define "clean vehicles" based on their CO2 emissions.

    The Framework Agreement will be for + or - 600 diesel-electric buses which will be compliant with the Directive.


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    ...That is the question.

    Reading the Irish Time piece,it all sounds (and looks) good.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-takes-delivery-of-first-hybrid-double-decker-vehicles-1.3899918

    Interesting bit of flesh-on-bones in relation to the size of order going forward.
    “In the next week or so, a procurement process will get under way for some 600 double-deck hybrid buses to be delivered over a five-year period. The vast majority of these will be deployed in Dublin, although some will operate in regional cities,” the spokesman added.

    “We would then hope to sign a contract with the winning bidder before the end 2019, with the prospect of the first batch of the new buses being delivered next year.”

    That's c.120 vehicles per anum,which,based upon projected expansion of the Greater Dublin Region,does'nt really allow for much wriggle room,unless other measures,such as extending the current 14 year service life,are introduced.

    The Framework Agreement will be for delivery of + or - 600 buses over a 2.5 year timeframe which means an average of 240 vehicles per year assuming the purchase quantity remains at 600.

    It will however have an option of a 2.5 year extension which will see a reduction to an average 120 vehicles per year if that option is exercised.

    Could a supplier realistically supply 20 vehicles per month? I doubt it so I would say the 2.5 year extension option will be taken.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    GM228 wrote: »
    The EU Directive on the Promotion of Clean and Energy Efficient Road Transport Vehicles (aka the "Clean Vehicle Dorective") which comes into force in 2021 will not be specific to Bio-Gas, but rather it will define "clean vehicles" based on their CO2 emissions.

    The Framework Agreement will be for + or - 600 diesel-electric buses which will be compliant with the Directive.

    The Framework Agreement will be for delivery of + or - 600 buses over a 2.5 year timeframe which means an average of 240 vehicles per year assuming the purchase quantity remains at 600.

    It will however have an option of a 2.5 year extension which will see a reduction to an average 120 vehicles per year if that option is exercised.

    Could a supplier realistically supply 20 vehicles per month? I doubt it so I would say the 2.5 year extension option will be taken.

    My understanding is that the 5 year "option" is the one being progressed,however there are some imponderables which could intervene in the process. :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    My understanding is that the 5 year "option" is the one being progressed,however there are some imponderables which could intervene in the process. :)

    The contract will be for 2.5 years, not 5, it will however have a renewal option for the NTA to extend by a further 2.5 years. It's not quite the same as a 5 year contract.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    The tender for the Hybrid buses has been issued.

    Tender discussion thread here:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057983932


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    GM228 wrote: »
    The contract will be for 2.5 years, not 5, it will however have a renewal option for the NTA to extend by a further 2.5 years. It's not quite the same as a 5 year contract.

    Correct....not quite.....it might end up at 30 months and be done with it ? ;)

    IV.1.3)
    Information about a framework agreement or a dynamic purchasing system

    The procurement involves the establishment of a framework agreement with a single operator

    I wonder who the lucky single operator is ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,561 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    bk wrote: »
    The Chinese have a MASSIVE head start in building EV buses. They are now building 10,000 new EV buses every 6 weeks! That is the size of the London Bus fleet every 6 weeks.

    One saving grace for European bus manufacturers is that the Chinese don't have much experience of Double Deckers, there buses are all single deckers. But it will be interesting to see where this all leads.

    are they not bothered being first to market with double decker or is the market too small to bother with from their perspective?

    just read the below which is interesting!

    https://commonwealthmagazine.org/opinion/kicking-the-tires-on-battery-electric-buses/


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Correct....not quite.....it might end up at 30 months and be done with it ? ;)

    Eh?

    It will be 30 months initially, it may be 60 months eventually, it may be 600 buses or it may be more or less.


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I wonder who the lucky single operator is ?

    The single operator in terms of the contract notice is the NTA, the actual operators will be DB and eventually also BE and GAI.

    This is standard and does not mean the actual operator of the buses.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    are they not bothered being first to market with double decker or is the market too small to bother with from their perspective?

    Well a Chinese company BYD, was the first to build a Double Decker BEV, which were trialled in London. They are actually a partnership between BYD and ADL Enviro400EV's. London has now placed an order for 37 of them.

    I get the impression that they are far from perfect. That they are VERY expensive and the batteries take up passenger space, reducing the number of passengers that can be carried, which isn't great. I suspect the order of 37 is a token gesture until prices drop and battery tech improves, it certainly isn't a serious order for a fleet the size of London.

    Part of the problem I suspect is that most of the world don't use Double Deckers. China is 100% single decker, except for Hong Kong. Most of the world is single decker. So I suspect they aren't too bothered about the relatively small DD markets. All Double Deckers tend to be dominated by European companies, so could be hard for them to break in. Thus the partnership with ADL.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    Interesting news from the Cummins Engine Corporation,regarding it's next generation Diesels,which are being marketed as a "Drop In" mod for existing Cummins Euro 6 power plants.

    https://cumminseurope.com/news/cummins-takes-euro-vi-step-ahead-phase-d-certified-clean-diesels
    In terms of vehicle integration, this is no need to re-engineer the Euro VI installations as our Phase-D engines offer a seamless, drop-in solution,”

    It is of some note that Cummins are outlining a 24% reduction in NoX emissions over their existing Euro 6 spec engines in barely 4 years,which points to the speed of technological development in the modern Diesel Powerplant.
    In addition to emissions test cell verification, the Phase-D regulations require on-road testing to capture real-world measurement. Duty cycle-based testing using high precision Portable Emissions Measurement systems (PEMs) installed on Cummins-powered buses has indicated a 25 percent reduction in NOx emissions, compared to the Phase-A engines when Euro VI was first introduced in 2015.

    With the Wrights Streetdeck 96V (WH) apparently now not actually meeting the NTA Tender Specification,that leaves the choice currently between the Volvo B5LH (VH) and the ADL (AH) product,with the ADL now potentially capable of even better Powerplant results,should the Cummins "Drop-In" upgrade make it into the Dublin Test fleet.

    It's all to play for ? ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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