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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    With the Wrights Streetdeck 96V (WH) apparently now not actually meeting the NTA Tender Specification

    Why? What is up with the Streetdecks? Not good enough emissions or fuel savings?

    It would be a big change for DB to move away from Wrights after all these years.

    Very interesting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    Why? What is up with the Streetdecks? Not good enough emissions or fuel savings?

    It would be a big change for DB to move away from Wrights after all these years.

    Very interesting.

    The Volvo bus which is Wright bodied would be still in the running if true about the Streetdeck. That one would be probably the most similar to the SG as it's a Volvo chassis on a Wright body.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »
    Why? What is up with the Streetdecks? Not good enough emissions or fuel savings?

    It would be a big change for DB to move away from Wrights after all these years.

    Very interesting.

    There is nothing "up" with the Streetdeck 96V per se,indeed it is picking up a steady few orders out foreign (in the UK ;) ).

    However the recently issued E-Tender documentation contained a small sting-in-the-tail for the Wrights own "mild" hybrid product.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/215834
    The buses to be provided under the Framework Agreement are intended to:
    • be double-deck vehicles with a minimum of 40 seats on the upper deck, a minimum of 17 seats (not including longitudinal tip-up seats) on the lower deck and an overall capacity (including standees) of 70 passengers or greater, subject to the vehicle length not exceeding 11.50 metres;
    • be equipped with a chassis incorporating a low-floor section within which the following are located:
    - a wide front entrance doorway fitted with a twin-leaf door and a motorised ramp suitable for unaided wheelchair access;
    - a dedicated wheelchair space, which can be easily accessed from the front entrance doorway ramp;
     a dedicated buggy space, which can be easily accessed from the front entrance doorway ramp; and
    - a wide centre exit doorway fitted with a twin-leaf door;
    • conform to EU/UNECE Vehicle Category M3 and belong to UNECE Class I;
    • be designed for both seated and standing passengers;
    • be suitable for use on city and suburban routes with frequent passenger stops;
    • be suitable for travelling on mixed roadways at speeds of up to 65 kilometres per hour;
    • meet the relevant definition of a ‘clean vehicle’ under the European Union’s (EU’s) forthcoming revised Directive on the promotion of clean and energy-efficient road transport vehicles (a.k.a. the ‘Clean Vehicles Directive’), which is anticipated to enter into force from mid-2021 onwards;
    • be capable of zero-tailpipe-emissions operation, in order to leverage the air quality benefits of zero-emission vehicles in advance of the roll-

    Since the Streedeck 96V,as currently configured,apparently cannot meet that Zero-Tailpipe-Emission spec point,it is difficult to see what role it now fulfills in this comparison test.

    This would appear to leave the ADL and Volvo B5LH as the two left slugging it out for the championship,with perhaps,the scales tilted ever so slightly towards the Volvo,with potentially an alternative body,as in the Volvo approved MCV Evo-Seti which was flashed around last year.

    What is more interesting,to my mind,is that all of the large-scale hybrid bus suppliers now appear to be rethinking their Euro6(D) Engine requirements,with both Cummins and Daimler heading back to,6 cylnder 7 litre+ capacities,following less than spectaularly successful operational experience,with the current 4 Cylinder,5 Litre offerings.

    In the UK & Ireland,Volvo would be well ahead in terms of vehicles in-service,with the undoubted advantage of a very comprehensive after-sales and warranty system,however,it is a valid question as to how long any manufacturer can continue to maintain that level of comprehensive backup and remain commercially viable ?

    The results of the NTA's comparisons will be eagerly awaited. :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Since the Streedeck 96V,as currently configured,apparently cannot meet that Zero-Tailpipe-Emission spec point,it is difficult to see what role it now fulfills in this comparison test.

    This would appear to leave the ADL and Volvo B5LH as the two left slugging it out for the championship,with perhaps,the scales tilted ever so slightly towards the Volvo,with potentially an alternative body,as in the Volvo approved MCV Evo-Seti which was flashed around last year.

    It would be interesting if they went for the MCV bodied buses alright but surely the NTA and DB would request a Wright bodied bus in order for there to be commonality with body parts with the SGs and other Wright bodied vehicles in the DB fleet. Would expect the NTA to request it going by DB and BE requests.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    It would be interesting if they went for the MCV bodied buses alright but surely the NTA and DB would request a Wright bodied bus in order for there to be commonality with body parts with the SGs and other Wright bodied vehicles in the DB fleet. Would expect the NTA to request it going by DB and BE requests.

    Anyone got any idea of what proportion NTA/DB are of Wright's order book?

    Also given they could well be outside of the EU come the end of Oct, would that have any effect in a no deal scenario, so it would be advisable to pivot away rather than deal with, tariffs from an NTA POV?


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    It would be interesting if they went for the MCV bodied buses alright but surely the NTA and DB would request a Wright bodied bus in order for there to be commonality with body parts with the SGs and other Wright bodied vehicles in the DB fleet.

    MCV would not have the capacity to build the number of vehicles that the NTA would like per year so I can't see them going down that route unless they are prepared to take a smaller number of vehicles per year at the start of the contract whilst MCV ramps up their capacity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Anyone got any idea of what proportion NTA/DB are of Wright's order book?

    Also given they could well be outside of the EU come the end of Oct, would that have any effect in a no deal scenario, so it would be advisable to pivot away rather than deal with, tariffs from an NTA POV?

    I'm not sure but I think it may be up to Volvo to pay any tariffs as they are Volvo buses with Wright bodywork, I think it's Volvo that contracts Wright to make the bodywork for their buses. MCV bodies are built in Eygpt so I would imagine tariffs would higher from Eygpt then any proposed UK tariffs. If we're buying double deckers you're pretty much confined to UK coachbuilders and at that it is only really Wrights and ADL that have the resources to mass produce buses on the scale the NTA requests.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    Anyone got any idea of what proportion NTA/DB are of Wright's order book?

    Well, in 2018 482 Wrights buses were registered in the UK, someone will have a figure for the NTA (DB, GAI and BE) registrations and I'm sure someone will have an idea of those outside the UK (Mexico etc) and that may give a rough idea of the proportion for 2018 anyway.


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I'm not sure but I think it may be up to Volvo to pay any tariffs as they are Volvo buses with Wright bodywork, I think it's Volvo that contracts Wright to make the bodywork for their buses. MCV bodies are built in Eygpt so I would imagine tariffs would higher from Eygpt then any proposed UK tariffs. If we're buying double deckers you're pretty much confined to UK coachbuilders and at that it is only really Wrights and ADL that have the resources to mass produce buses on the scale the NTA requests.

    To clarify, the NTA contract for double deckers is with Volvo UK who then subcontract to Wrights, the contract for single and midis is direct with Wrights.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,763 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    One of DB's new hybrid buses where carrying members of the government for a press conference on their Climate Action Plan in Dublin today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    One of DB's new hybrid buses where carrying members of the government for a press conference on their Climate Action Plan in Dublin today.

    I saw that yeah they all looked liked they'd never been on a bus in their lives a bit like Ross' spin on the 44. I wonder when these buses are due to enter service?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,763 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I saw that yeah they all looked liked they'd never been on a bus in their lives a bit like Ross' spin on the 44. I wonder when these buses are due to enter service?

    They may still be some driver training to do yet before it goes out for it's hybrid trial on the 25.

    Does anyone know which bus was it out today? Was it WH1 or WH2? Is WH3 delivered yet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Joegriffin2019


    They are waiting on final 3 to arrive, then a photo shoot with all 9 then entry in to service after driver training. Ide say 2-3 weeks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    They may still be some driver training to do yet before it goes out for it's hybrid trial on the 25.

    Does anyone know which bus was it out today? Was it WH1 or WH2? Is WH3 delivered yet?

    WH2 from the picture I saw


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    The first vehicles will enter service by the end of the week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    Can't wait to try them out, would love a rumnin fully EV though...

    Funny in the EV ones they have a diesel heater for winter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Can't wait to try them out, would love a rumnin fully EV though...

    Funny in the EV ones they have a diesel heater for winter.

    Problem is that EV double deckers are still only in the development stage and all the EVs buses that have been fully developed are single deckers so they wouldn't be much use for Dublin.

    Perhaps they could trial some EV single deckers with GAI though for the quieter routes they use Streetlites on.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Funny in the EV ones they have a diesel heater for winter.

    Do they?! I would have thought a heat pump from the batteries would be enough. They do generate heat. But perhaps not enough for really cold countries. I'd doubt it would be an issue for our temperate climate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    Do they?! I would have thought a heat pump from the batteries would be enough. They do generate heat. But perhaps not enough for really cold countries. I'd doubt it would be an issue for our temperate climate.

    I believe the ones in London have a diesel heating


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    The NTA have indicated that a public consultation will take place later in the quarter in relation to alternatively fuelled buses, which will form part of a wider consultation on elements of public transport within the state.

    It's now expected that they will award the framework contract for the purchase of double deck hybrid buses and place first order by the end of the current calendar year, all going well with the first vehicles to enter service in Q4 2020.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,563 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    devnull wrote: »
    The NTA have indicated that a public consultation will take place later in the quarter in relation to alternatively fuelled buses, which will form part of a wider consultation on elements of public transport within the state.

    It's now expected that they will award the framework contract for the purchase of double deck hybrid buses and place first order by the end of the current calendar year, all going well with the first vehicles to enter service in Q4 2020.
    Should we just disband the nta and have the expert public decide everything?


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Should we just disband the nta and have the expert public decide everything?

    Unfortunately the NTA have took a lot of a battering about not consulting people enough so I've been under the impression that orders may have come from higher up that they need to consult more, all of that fake 'we wasn't consulted' stuff we heard about BusConnects has probably played into this as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    The NTA have indicated that a public consultation will take place later in the quarter in relation to alternatively fuelled buses, which will form part of a wider consultation on elements of public transport within the state.

    It's now expected that they will award the framework contract for the purchase of double deck hybrid buses and place first order by the end of the current calendar year, all going well with the first vehicles to enter service in Q4 2020.

    I'd imagine this will be one public consultation with very little input or consideration. I could be surprised but I don't believe the majority care what is fuel their bus is using unless they have a particular interest in technology, heavy vehicles or happen to be bus enthusiasts.

    Just like they don't care about the livery, who's operating it, the driver, the look of the interior or the brand of tyres used but rather that they have a safe, clean, reliable, efficient, quick and user friendly service.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 34,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AlmightyCushion


    Why do we need to consult the public on hybrid vehicles? It makes no sense. Let's consult the public on what type of tires the bus uses while we're at it.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I'd imagine this will be one public consultation with very little input or consideration. I could be surprised but I don't believe the majority care what is fuel their bus is using unless they have a particular interest in technology, heavy vehicles or happen to be bus enthusiasts.

    I largely agree with you, but I do think there will probably be public interest in the environmental impact of the options and perhaps noise levels.

    I suspect that there might be worry that members of the public will see these for what they really are, just more diesel engined buses and will start complaining loudly.

    I mean we've already seen people question why not full EV multiple times on this forum. So I'm sure at least some people in the public are wondering the same.

    It is probably a good idea to actually lay out to the public, the results of the emissions trials from earlier this year.

    If they can show that the PM/NOX levels of the hybrids are significantly less then the straight Euro 6 buses and similar to Biogas, then it might avoid some criticism. Or Dieselgate claims.

    I'd also suspect they will show the big difference in cost of buses and infrastructure between Euro 6, Hybrid and Biogas and might discuss the current challenges around full EV double deckers.

    If they are transparent about it, it might help avoid criticism.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 34,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AlmightyCushion


    bk wrote: »
    I largely agree with you, but I do think there will probably be public interest in the environmental impact of the options and perhaps noise levels.

    I suspect that there might be worry that members of the public will see these for what they really are, just more diesel engined buses and will start complaining loudly.

    I mean we've already seen people question why not full EV multiple times on this forum. So I'm sure at least some people in the public are wondering the same.

    It is probably a good idea to actually lay out to the public, the results of the emissions trials from earlier this year.

    If they can show that the PM/NOX levels of the hybrids are significantly less then the straight Euro 6 buses and similar to Biogas, then it might avoid some criticism. Or Dieselgate claims.

    I'd also suspect they will show the big difference in cost of buses and infrastructure between Euro 6, Hybrid and Biogas and might discuss the current challenges around full EV double deckers.

    If they are transparent about it, it might help avoid criticism.

    You don't need a public consultation for that. You can just put out a statement saying why we can't go full EV and detailing how these new hybrid buses are better than the existing diesel buses and when fully electric buses are practical we'll move to them.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull


    Why do we need to consult the public on hybrid vehicles? It makes no sense. Let's consult the public on what type of tires the bus uses while we're at it.

    It will not be a consultation about just this per se, it will be an element of a wider consultation on public transport within the state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭ XPS_Zero


    devnull wrote: »
    Unfortunately the NTA have took a lot of a battering about not consulting people enough so I've been under the impression that orders may have come from higher up that they need to consult more, all of that fake 'we wasn't consulted' stuff we heard about BusConnects has probably played into this as well.


    Every time I hear of this I think of that sign in my doctors office "To Google is not research".
    You're asking people totally unqualified to render an opinion and they'll usually get it wrong, because they are only interested in their own little patch of the picture.


    This idea has lately taken hold that public representatives and bodies are delegates for peoples opinions and must slavishly follow public opinion on every topic. I see it with Brexit. Like all the PC stuff and the constant need to add new letters to LGBT it's probably an overcorrection of a legit problem, where people vote a govt in on policy x then they do a total u-turn ignoring policy x (Labour in Ireland, Lib Dems in the UK, both with college fees)....but it has to stop.


    They're not delegates they are representatives, public opinion is meant to be put through the prism of elected and appointed people who do this stuff as a full time job and temper that opinion with expert advice.


    That's before getting into the fact that a certain % of the Irish population are just professional whingers who will complain at everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭ StreetLight


    First one went into service this morning on the 25A.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,763 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    First one went into service this morning on the 25A.

    More interestingly; it was WH2 that made the first ever revenue earning service on the route today.

    What happened to WH1. Is that having more driver testing done or not?

    The first of the new AH's have arrived in Broadstone 3 days ago. It's said that the bus is brand new but built to a London spec.

    It looks brilliantly well. No decals have been painted on it though when the photograph shows it on Darren's Hall Flickr.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭ john boye


    More interestingly; it was WH2 that made the first ever revenue earning service on the route today.

    What happened to WH1. Is that having more driver testing done or not?

    If they've both been delivered how does it matter which one enters service first? Is it important?


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