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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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Comments

  • #212
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Buses bought.

    Alexander Dennis got the contract, 100 Enviro400Er Battery/Diesel buses in the first tranche, up to the full 600. Glad that they went with an established bus already, no point trialing out new tech on our streets, we can't afford for anything to go wrong.

    See here.

    66 passengers? :Confused:


  • #213
    belfast stephen
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭belfast stephen


    thomasj wrote: »
    66 passengers? :Confused:


    Wonder what the price was between ADL and Wrightbus I have heard Dublin bus were very happy with the Volvo B5LH and have heard from many people that the After sales is terrible from ADL


  • #214
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    belfast stephen wrote: »
    Wonder what the price was between ADL and Wrightbus I have heard Dublin bus were very happy with the Volvo B5LH and have heard from many people that the After sales is terrible from ADL

    According to the independent piece linked, there wasn't a bid from Wrightbus because they were in administration at the time.


  • #215
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    thomasj wrote: »
    According to the independent piece linked, there wasn't a bid from Wrightbus because they were in administration at the time.

    But Wrightbus went into administration 5 months after the tender.


  • #216
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    thomasj wrote: »
    66 passengers? :Confused:

    Probably just the number of seats, doesn't include standing passengers. I believe the SG class has 67 seats.
    GM228 wrote: »
    But Wrightbus went into administration 5 months after the tender.

    Was the original tender not just for 3 buses from each company for a trial and subsequent use by DB? I'd assume the bigger tender went out after the trial.

    And even if they had tendered, I'd assume it would be null and void when they went into administration.


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  • #217
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This is excellent news in that it is not an off the shelf product and is not the same vehicle as an AH, so those who are expecting to get such a vehicle will be in for a shock.

    It is a longer vehicle, with an interior and exterior design that is based on NTA specifications which will become apparent in due course. It is also based on the Enviro 400 City design and not the MMC design seen on the AH.

    I believe as part of this deal Alexander Dennis are investing heavily in a support network for the vehicles.


  • #218
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This thread is for the discussion of the Dublin Bus Demonstrator vehicles currently on trial with the company.

    If you wish to discuss today's news about an order for 600 Hybrid vehicles from Alexander Dennis by the NTA, please use the dedicated thread below which has been created due to the significance of this news.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058050021

    - Moderator


  • #219
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Oh. That's great news. I will be happy with travelling on these buses once they come into Dublin.

    It is a big change from using the SG's most of the time.

    I would like to hear some first impressions about these buses in the UK. Are they any good to use as a driver or as a passenger?


  • #220
    ax586
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    devnull wrote: »
    This is excellent news in that it is not an off the shelf product and is not the same vehicle as an AH, so those who are expecting to get such a vehicle will be in for a shock.

    It is a longer vehicle, with an interior and exterior design that is based on NTA specifications which will become apparent in due course. It is also based on the Enviro 400 City design and not the MMC design seen on the AH.

    I believe as part of this deal Alexander Dennis are investing heavily in a support network for the vehicles.


    You do realise Dublin bus will be involved in this..I mean the nta asked the Dublin bus design committee to be involved..so more like it will be something like a Dublin bus spec


  • #221
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ax586 wrote: »
    You do realise Dublin bus will be involved in this..I mean the nta asked the Dublin bus design committee to be involved..so more like it will be something like a Dublin bus spec

    I've no doubt that Dublin Bus, Go Ahead and maybe even Bus Eireann would all have been heavily involved. They are all stakeholders in this, so of course would be asked for their opinion. GA probably would have a lot of input given their experience with ADL in London.


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  • #222
    ax586
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    bk wrote: »
    I've no doubt that Dublin Bus, Go Ahead and maybe even Bus Eireann would all have been heavily involved. They are all stakeholders in this, so of course would be asked for their opinion. GA probably would have a lot of input given their experience with ADL in London.

    Yea thought so aswel..A rumour doing the rounds is GA might not be getting any as someone high up said they have a young fleet at the moment now as I said it's a rumour


  • #223
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ax586 wrote: »
    Yea thought so aswel..A rumour doing the rounds is GA might not be getting any as someone high up said they have a young fleet at the moment now as I said it's a rumour

    Sure, that makes sense, I wouldn't expect GA to get any from the first batch of 100 and maybe not for 3 or 4 years, but they would probably eventually get some.

    As you say GA are mostly newer Euro 5/6 GT and SG buses. I'd assume they will continue to follow previous years example of replacing the 100 oldest buses in the city fleet each year.

    So probably replace the AV/VT/AX's over the next year or so and then the EV/VG's after that. Obviously the VT's would be the one with the question mark over them, will be interesting to see what they do there.

    Those represent about 350 buses or so of the 600. Once your through those, you'd be into the Euro 5 GT's, so then you might see some of them turning up with GA.

    It also makes sense given that DB mostly operate the through city center routes, where they would really benefit from the EV operation mode. GA being the more outer routes need this less.

    Despite that, I'd be shocked if they didn't get input from GA given their experience in London and with ADL.


  • #224
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    What will happen with these buses when they go to BÉ? Are they due to receive new double deckers any time soon?


  • #225
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    How much more are these than a typical diesel bus ? Was there’s a point in going for a middle ground instead of just waiting for fully electric or do we legally have to embrace these new buses ?


  • #226
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    How much more are these than a typical diesel bus ? Was there’s a point in going for a middle ground instead of just waiting for fully electric or do we legally have to embrace these new buses ?

    I can't find an article now, but I remember a previous order of SG classes buses being 400k each. These seem to be 50k more at 450k each.

    Having said that keep in mind inflation and the lack of any competitors with just one tender, you'd expect to pay more either way.

    Also keep in mind that these should have significantly lower fuel costs, so the total cost of ownership may end up similar or perhaps even cheaper.

    I'm not sure we "legally" have to buy these, but it is definitely government policy to shift to zero emission vehicles * and I don't think it would look good at all for the NTA to continue buying Diesel only buses for the next 5 years. They were already receiving a lot of public criticism over the past 2 years.

    Also this shift is likely to help greatly with routing buses down different streets and the quays and busconnects. These should help lessen the objections to buses causing extra pollution and noise to residents. 50k extra is a dropping in the ocean compared to 2 billion busconnects project, so I think it is money well spent.

    * As an aside, I was delighted last Monday while driving through the city that I noticed not one, but 4 An Post fully EV vans! Nice job by An Post in making the switch to full EV.


  • #227
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Thanks bk very informative. No fifty extrae each is nothing , it’s not like double the cost and fifty k is a drop in ocean. Is anyone manufacturing double decker electric yet ?


  • #228
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Thanks bk very informative. No fifty extrae each is nothing , it’s not like double the cost and fifty k is a drop in ocean. Is anyone manufacturing double decker electric yet ?

    ADL do one in partnership with the Chinese bus manufacturer BYD, the Enviro400EV and the Optare Metrodeck is another one.

    The issue is lack the range for a full days operations on Dublins relatively long routes and the other issue is that they put the batteries in the back of the lower deck, so reduce the number of passengers they can carry by a couple of people, which isn't good. I think the battery tech needs to advance further to make them more energy dense, so more range in lighter and smaller battery packs.


  • #229
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Will the new buses include digital advertising billboards instead of paper.


  • #230
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Will these only be deployed to Dublin Bus or a mix of them and Go Ahead?


  • #231
    ax586
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ax586


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Will these only be deployed to Dublin Bus or a mix of them and Go Ahead?

    Rumour has it DB and BE but mainly DB as GAI have a very young fleet


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  • #232
    Polar101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭Polar101


    So what does this mean for the overall bus numbers at DB/GAI - with old buses being replaced gradually, will there actually be more buses in service?


  • #233
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    bk wrote: »
    Probably just the number of seats, doesn't include standing passengers. I believe the SG class has 67 seats.

    Oh dear. That is not a good thing for the people on board and those waiting, even if the only emissions are rainbows. The lessons of squashed SGs on VT routes are not being learned.


  • #234
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dfx- wrote: »
    Oh dear. That is not a good thing for the people on board and those waiting, even if the only emissions are rainbows. The lessons of squashed SGs on VT routes are not being learned.

    The vehicle is 11m which is not exactly short for a double decker and you also have to take into account that a hybrid vehicles will have more equipment installed than a standard full diesel so that will mean less room for passengers and more for equipment for the various systems.

    Would you care to point me towards a hybrid vehicle for the UK/Ireland market of a VT type length that has the range that the Enviro 400 ER has? Surely there must be one if it is such a no brainer?


  • #235
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    If there isn't a comparable length and capacity (without pretending you can fit 30 standees) then you don't voluntarily replace what you currently have until there is.

    We have had eight years of GTs and SGs with seating of 67ish and another ten years of these with seating of 66 and passenger demand only going up. Twenty years with no increase of capacity, but any number of plans that will make it work eventually...

    Why are we still ordering buses with a seated capacity of 66?


  • #236
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dfx- wrote: »
    If there isn't a comparable length and capacity (without pretending you can fit 30 standees) then you don't voluntarily replace what you currently have until there is.

    Because, they are getting old and they will start breaking down on the road with passengers on them, which doesn't look good for public transport and is likely to drive people back to their cars.

    There are very good reasons to keep the fleet young.
    dfx- wrote: »
    We have had eight years of GTs and SGs with seating of 67ish and another ten years of these with seating of 66 and passenger demand only going up. Twenty years with no increase of capacity, but any number of plans that will make it work eventually...

    Why are we still ordering buses with a seated capacity of 66?

    Because for the most part they fit our narrow roads and streets well. Bigger buses don't. Just like London Bus (most of which actually have less seats).

    And you can also increase capacity by increasing the number and frequency of buses.

    After all, China manages to move around over a billion people on exclusively single decker buses.


  • #237
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    China could move people around on minibuses. South Africa does on deathtrap minibuses, but it is still not the way to go..

    We keep saying it and it keeps being posted that it can be done by increasing fleet size and frequency but it is not happening. There is no advantage to having 200 new buses when the next three 66s are bursting full to Chapelizod/13 to Kilmainham/15 to Terenure etc etc..

    The thing that will get people back to their cars more than anything else is standing waiting in the cold and then holding onto a handrail standing on a bus for weeks on end per year. Standing on a full bus with fogged up windows is a miserable bus experience to the most important person,the passenger - whatever is coming out of the exhaust pipe.


  • #238
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dfx- wrote: »
    We keep saying it and it keeps being posted that it can be done by increasing fleet size and frequency but it is not happening.

    But it has already happened! When GA won the contract, the size of the overall Dublin Bus fleet has increased by 10% and as routes have been transferred to GA, DB has been increasing frequency on their core routes.
    dfx- wrote: »
    The thing that will get people back to their cars more than anything else is standing waiting in the cold and then holding onto a handrail standing on a bus for weeks on end per year.

    People already do that on the VT's and DART and Luas too! We had previous experience with buses that were left get too old and broke down frequently. It looked terrible and is partly what drove so many people to cars in the first place. Keep the fleet young and well maintained has helped greatly improving reliability, which is why so many people are using the bus and are packed onto it now. This is something we definitely don't want to be back sliding on.

    Hopefully ADL produces a 500ER some day and we can use those on suitable routes. But there really aren't that many routes suited to big tri-axles. What we really need is BusConnects and of course Metrolink, Dart Expansion, etc. The Tri-axles really don't give you much more capacity, they themselves are just a band-aid.


  • #239
    thenightman
    Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭thenightman


    Very disheartening to hear these are actually a decrease in capacity. As someone who spends €1450 a year and at least 80 mins a day currently standing on jam packed Dublin Buses morning and evening (after the first two 13's don't stop at all) I would have assumed someone competent in the NTA would have considered a capacity increase on new buses to be a good idea.

    The people making the more buses = more capacity are forgetting that Dublin has little to no bus priority, so throwing more smaller buses down the north quays, D'olier Street or Naas Road doesn't really solve anything. You still get passed by the first two full buses, and two empty ones arrive 15 minutes later. The experience is still miserable and off putting to those who have the option of driving.

    Still, at least they've moved away from the awful uncomfortable Wrightbus!


  • #240
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    bk wrote: »
    But it has already happened! When GA won the contract, the size of the overall Dublin Bus fleet has increased by 10% and as routes have been transferred to GA, DB has been increasing frequency on their core routes.

    The 'expansion' has happened, but the 66s/13s/15s/39s/27s are still full near the city. Even the 24hr routes are busy, demand is up. It hasn't had the impact that it had been long promised that it would.
    bk wrote: »
    People already do that on the VT's and DART and Luas too! We had previous experience with buses that were left get too old and broke down frequently. It looked terrible and is partly what drove so many people to cars in the first place. Keep the fleet young and well maintained has helped greatly improving reliability, which is why so many people are using the bus and are packed onto it now. This is something we definitely don't want to be back sliding on.

    Hopefully ADL produces a 500ER some day and we can use those on suitable routes. But there really aren't that many routes suited to big tri-axles. What we really need is BusConnects and of course Metrolink, Dart Expansion, etc. The Tri-axles really don't give you much more capacity, they themselves are just a band-aid.

    That experience is nearly 30+ years old now with KDs and Ds/DFs. The RVs never broke down, even now the AXs rarely broke down and it's very rare to see a broken down EV/VG/VT. The early AVs did, but they were a brand new type. We've got to get over the unreliability of the KDs in the 21st century.

    DARTs and Luas doesn't compare to the breadth of service of the bus network. It's a city that runs (or stands waiting) by its bus service. For the level of investment over eight years, the passenger is getting the same product in capacity (and NTA committing to 600 more of them!) and same chance of getting on board or indeed less as the demand goes up with the fare for the same seats and same quality of journey.


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  • #241
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Are we talking here about the loss of one seat?


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