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The Bi-Lingual Auditory Assult By Newstalk

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    #32
    tv3tg4
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭tv3tg4


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Because many in SF do not have much Irish at all really.

    There was a documentary on tg4 recently and the queen had more Irish than one shinner.

    Newstalk are doing better than most radio stations than the Irish. Splanc is part of the licence for the station.

    But credit were it is due.


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    #33
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The tokenism is over now thankfully. Service as usual.


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    #34
    EmmetSpiceland
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    The tokenism is over now thankfully. Service as usual.

    I don’t think its like will ever be again.

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



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    #35
    ButtersSuki
    Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    Just seeing this now. I heard a couple of these a few weeks ago. Tbh I found the direct (and inaccurate
    ) translations to be the most offensive part of it. Surely they would have a staff member across their stations that can speak Irish fluently, or at worst go and ask or hire someone to do these very basic translations correctly?


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    #36
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Legally, radio stations have to play a certain amount of content as Gaeilge.

    Which is yet anther mad BAI requirement. RnaG and Raidio na Life exist, do they have an English requirement?

    Does Radio Maria have islamic calls to prayer mandated by the BAI? (Although how religious broadcasters are allowed at all is another mad kettle of fish)

    It's nuts and it's tokenism and any actual advocates of the Irish language should regard it as an insult tbh.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #37
    zell12
    Registered Users Posts: 23,611 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    ButtersSuki wrote: »
    Just seeing this now. I heard a couple of these a few weeks ago. Tbh I found the direct (and inaccurate) translations to be the most offensive part of it. Surely they would have a staff member across their stations that can speak Irish fluently, or at worst go and ask or hire someone to do these very basic translations correctly?
    Tá tú suas chun friggin dáta le Nuastálk


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    #38
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,562 ✭✭✭Allinall


    ButtersSuki wrote: »
    Just seeing this now. I heard a couple of these a few weeks ago. Tbh I found the direct (and inaccurate
    ) translations to be the most offensive part of it. Surely they would have a staff member across their stations that can speak Irish fluently, or at worst go and ask or hire someone to do these very basic translations correctly?

    Any examples, and what would the correct translation be?


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    #39
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    zell12 wrote: »
    Tá tú suas chun friggin dáta le Nuastálk

    Broken Irish is better than clever English... :D


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    #40
    zell12
    Registered Users Posts: 23,611 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Allinall wrote: »
    Any examples, and what would the correct translation be?
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116569368&postcount=23


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    #41
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,562 ✭✭✭Allinall


    zell12 wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116569368&postcount=23

    Neither of those examples say that “you are up to date”


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    #42
    zell12
    Registered Users Posts: 23,611 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Allinall wrote: »
    Neither of those examples say that “you are up to date”
    That's because it is a direct literal translation from english, and sounds wrong.


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    #43
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    zell12 wrote: »
    That's because it is a direct literal translation from english, and sounds wrong.

    Not sure where you are getting this from, if it's good enough for well known writers like of Alan Titley or Beairtle Ó Conaire then it should be good enough for you.
    https://www.gaois.ie/ga/corpora/monolingual/?Query=suas+chun+d%C3%A1ta&SearchMode=exact&PerPage=50

    Just because something in one language sounds similar to something in another, does not mean its wrong. I don't know if it came into Irish through English, but if it did, so what? Loan words/phrases are a totally natural part of the evolution of a living language.


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    #44
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,562 ✭✭✭Allinall


    zell12 wrote: »
    That's because it is a direct literal translation from english, and sounds wrong.

    How does it sound wrong?

    How else would you translate “up to date”?


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    #45
    bike2wkr
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭bike2wkr


    niallers1 wrote: »
    The problem years ago you had non Irish speakers trying to teach Irish.

    Nowadays, (at least in my daughters school) the focus is on speaking/ day to day conversation. It is taught in a very different way and by people already fluent. Not just by "teachers" who are one chapter ahead of the class.

    An nuacht is deireanai ...the latest news. There is no direct translation.

    Ta an nuacht is deireanai agaibh..!


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    #46
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Legally, radio stations have to play a certain amount of content as Gaeilge. It is possible that this is being used as a loophole by Newstalk to get around this requirement in a piecemeal fashion.

    Radio stations know that they will lose listenership and advertising if they have entire shows in Irish, that's why they stick them in off peak graveyard slots. That's reality.


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    #47
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,312 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Radio stations know that they will lose listenership and advertising if they have entire shows in Irish, that's why they stick them in off peak graveyard slots. That's reality.

    I can't argue with that. I have found programmes accidently on graveyard slots.

    There is some quality stuff done in the Irish language medium in general, in fairness. But because many have a deep seated fear/loathing of the language (like the OP for some reason) they are not heard by many.

    Although if anyone has a great level of Irish and is a bit of 'mouth' with a minimal level of personality. They would have a good chance of walking into an Irish media job - as Gaeilge. What is the population of avid Irish listeners 100k ish?

    Once you have decent Irish you become very niche, and have a great chance of working in that medium if you wish. Smaller pool less competition.

    But it does work the other way as well. Because I have seen and heard top quality actors / radio presenters. Many of whom have a very low profile except in the Irish language world.

    And I think 'jayus that is great stuff'.
    Plus then I think they could go into the English language medium and earn more. But the 'grá' for the Irish keeps them there, it seems.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #48
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,312 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    As for Irish programming, I don’t mind it too much but with something like Splanc my own Irish wouldn’t be good enough to keep up. I’m fine with the news, and the like, but if it’s not in the, shall we say, “Queen’s Irish” I’m liable to get lost.

    Just read this now. Flipping gas
    'Queen's Irish' I will have to remember that one!

    I suppose you could call it 'Michael D' Irish.

    I tried listening to Ra Na Life. But even I know (with my middling Irish) some of the presenters/guests Irish is not great. And some of the guests on it seems to resort to throwing in 'likes' in English - while making up Irish words they don't know or just using long phrases in English.

    R na L is aimed at youngsters in fairness. And R na G is the one to listen to I find.

    I remember Radio Nova used to have a chirpy young one on (can't remember her name don't listen to Nova anymore for other reasons)

    She did the 'A to Zee' of rock - As Gaeilge and then in English. Short Bio's of bands etc I thought it was clever way to do it.

    I am not sure Newstalk have the gaps in their schedule to do the likes of that?
    But surely a small bit of Gaeilge at news times is no harm. If the OP was more open he/she might start picking bits up naturally. Particularly after listening to it in English. No harm in it imo. We are in Ireland after all.

    ---

    If the Newstalk management are reading this I would say ignore the OP.

    Find other ways of sneaking Irish in. As you would do with a small child and their vegetables. Because imo opinion such an anti Irish language view ,the OP holds is not based on logic. But a childish irrational fear.
    It would also benefit people who want to make some sort of an effort. You get out of language you put into it. It can open eyes to a different way of thinking. Or a a turn of phrase, not used in other languages.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #49
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    I can't argue with that. I have found programmes accidently on graveyard slots.

    TBH I think they should go big into podcasting. Cheap to do and overcomes any scheduling issues, people can listen whenever they want (and wind back anything they had trouble understanding). Can link to a website with a transcript, or "hard words" explained, etc.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #50
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Find other ways of sneaking Irish in. As you would do with a small child and their vegetables.

    This is exactly the sort of paternalism that turns people off imho. But at least vegetables are good for kids... you might feel that people who don't want to learn or speak Irish are missing out on something useful, but they don't.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #51
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,312 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    This is exactly the sort of paternalism that turns people off imho. But at least vegetables are good for kids... you might feel that people who don't want to learn or speak Irish are missing out on something useful, but they don't.

    Who are the 'they' exactly and what is the mindset??

    If you are in Spain you hear Spanish radio, if you are in France you hear French etc.
    Should it really that odd to hear, Irish on Irish radio?

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #52
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »

    There is some quality stuff done in the Irish language medium in general, in fairness. But because many have a deep seated fear/loathing of the language (like the OP for some reason) they are not heard by many.

    I'm sure there are but I'm not bothered learning just to listen to a show! They haven't invented radio with subtitles yet.
    I'm also sure if TnaG hadn't subtitles or English language movies they would lose a lot of viewers.

    It's not just loathing, many people aren't arsed learning something they're not going to use beyond what is essentially hobby usage.


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    #53
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,312 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    I'm sure there are but I'm not bothered learning just to listen to a show! They haven't invented radio with subtitles yet.
    I'm also sure if TnaG hadn't subtitles or English language movies they would lose a lot of viewers.

    It's not just loathing, many people aren't arsed learning something they're not going to use beyond what is essentially hobby usage.

    It is baffling to me. Because there seems to be an inbuilt hatred and fear of the Irish language as proven by the OP's post.

    A language cannot cause physical harm to anyone. Would the OP have given out about a French on a French radio station?

    It is actually very easy to learn the Irish language. It costs no money. There are ciorcal comhrá all over Ireland where people practise speaking Irish.
    In fact many foreigners have no issue with trying it. I met people ranging from France, Russia, Sudan, Holland. and Australia giving Irish a go.Which says a lot.

    It seems the problem is many self-hating Irish people. Ironically stemming from the era when Irish was viewed as the language of the poor. And the English discouraged the use of the Irish language. That is what 'auditory assault' is code for in the OP's first post

    In other threads regarding nationalism and Sinn Féin etc I made the point that many 'so called' Republicans and people who want a UI do not speak the Irish language either at all/or to any great extent.

    Yet many seem to be the very people who like to view themselves as 'not English'. Yet somehow they have let slide the most Irish thing left. Which is the Irish language.

    Now I am not a republican etc, but I find it very hypocritical of people who shout to the rooftops about being 'Irish'.
    But on the other hand they neglect the language. They follow English music, English films and English popular culture. Take away the Irish language and wipe it out. What is the difference between Ireland and the UK then? And what is 'Irishness?'

    Maybe the OP views himself/herself as English and identifies more with England/UK which is fair enough.

    But the OP must realise that they live in Ireland and Irish is one of the official languages of the state in the Irish constitution. Until that changes the OP has little to giving out about.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »

    It is actually very easy to learn the Irish language. It costs no money. There are ciorcal comhrá all over Ireland where people practise speaking Irish.
    .
    I agree with all of your post except for a minor disagreement here. I know you're talking about facilities, which are abundant and free, but the language itself isn't very easy.

    I've kept up my Irish since leaving school, and I still wouldn't call myself fluent. I often test myself by trying ri mentally translate something from a radio report or a newspaper into Irish, and will soon be reaching for the dictionary. Maybe not always for a definition, but a declension (is it an abstract noun? No idea, and the rules are unpredictable. I should know what a strong plural is but I don't).

    In my opinion, Irish is harder than French or German, or even Arabic (which has very few noun declensions, and almost no verb conjugation, highly recommend) and that difficulty, combined with the undoubted postcolonial self-loathing, has done the language in.

    Accents are another thing. People from the Gaeltacht have a different phonology to those of us who learned the language in school. I simply cannot follow some of the actors on Ros na Rún, but have no problem understanding the actors who obviously got their Irish in school and at university.

    As languages go, it's not the easiest to grasp. Especially because what we might call standard Irish is so audibly different to native-spoken irish. I love irish, and I get by, but my French is better and whilst that's my own fault, it does take a tremendous effort.

    By the way, I wish we could put to bed this idea that Irish is badly taught. It's taught exactly how French and German are, with the same focus on oral and aural work. Going by some people, you d think kids were still being force-fed Peig, which is actually a great resource anyway.


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    #55
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I agree with all of your post except for a minor disagreement here. I know you're talking about facilities, which are abundant and free, but the language itself isn't very easy.

    I've kept up my Irish since leaving school, and I still wouldn't call myself fluent. I often test myself by trying ri mentally translate something from a radio report or a newspaper into Irish, and will soon be reaching for the dictionary. Maybe not always for a definition, but a declension (is it an abstract noun? No idea, and the rules are unpredictable. I should know what a strong plural is but I don't).

    In my opinion, Irish is harder than French or German, or even Arabic (which has very few noun declensions, and almost no verb conjugation, highly recommend) and that difficulty, combined with the undoubted postcolonial self-loathing, has done the language in.

    Accents are another thing. People from the Gaeltacht have a different phonology to those of us who learned the language in school. I simply cannot follow some of the actors on Ros na Rún, but have no problem understanding the actors who obviously got their Irish in school and at university.

    As languages go, it's not the easiest to grasp. Especially because what we might call standard Irish is so audibly different to native-spoken irish. I love irish, and I get by, but my French is better and whilst that's my own fault, it does take a tremendous effort.

    By the way, I wish we could put to bed this idea that Irish is badly taught. It's taught exactly how French and German are, with the same focus on oral and aural work. Going by some people, you d think kids were still being force-fed Peig, which is actually a great resource anyway.

    Irish is not overly hard, certainly not an outlier in terms of dificulty as far as languages go. Some of the grammer rules can be dificult, but it is also relativly easy in some areas too, very few irregular verbs for example, and a relativly close and consistant relationship between spelling and pronunciation.


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    #56
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    I don't really care how easy or hard it is to learn. I'm just not bothered, it is of no use to me.

    I don't have any romantic notions about language, if it was of use to me everyday, say if I lived full time in Russia it would be useful to learn at least the basics of Russian. It is just a tool for communication as far as I'm concerned.


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    #57
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,312 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Accents are another thing. People from the Gaeltacht have a different phonology to those of us who learned the language in school. I simply cannot follow some of the actors on Ros na Rún, but have no problem understanding the actors who obviously got their Irish in school and at university.

    As languages go, it's not the easiest to grasp. Especially because what we might call standard Irish is so audibly different to native-spoken irish. I love irish, and I get by, but my French is better and whilst that's my own fault, it does take a tremendous effort.

    By the way, I wish we could put to bed this idea that Irish is badly taught. It's taught exactly how French and German are, with the same focus on oral and aural work. Going by some people, you d think kids were still being force-fed Peig, which is actually a great resource anyway.
    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Irish is not overly hard, certainly not an outlier in terms of dificulty as far as languages go. Some of the grammer rules can be dificult, but it is also relativly easy in some areas too, very few irregular verbs for example, and a relativly close and consistant relationship between spelling and pronunciation.

    I actually made a typo in my previous post I left out the word 'way'. 'I meant to say the easiest way to learn the Irish language'. Not that it was a particular easy language to learn to start from scratch. Something like Spanish would be more accessible I would say?

    However, talking to foreigners about languages they say that English is more difficult to learn than Irish.

    As regard learning the language and the different accents. I watch Ros Na Run it has the three dialects and I watch the subtitles in Irish just to pick bits up. It is like listening to music you just have to get the 'tune' of it. Focloir.ie is great as well because it has the three dialects in sound files for many of the words.

    And I meant to say the easiest way to learn a language is to just speak it in a Ciorcail Chomhrá (Conversation Circle) no pressure. Natural environment like a pub just chat no matter what your level. There are loads of them all over the place. There are also loads of Pop Up Gaeltacht's.
    Many are still going virtually now during covid19.

    whisky_galore wrote: »
    I don't really care how easy or hard it is to learn. I'm just not bothered, it is of no use to me.

    I don't have any romantic notions about language, if it was of use to me everyday, say if I lived full time in Russia it would be useful to learn at least the basics of Russian. It is just a tool for communication as far as I'm concerned.

    I would agree 100% that it is a tool of communication with links in to my last point easiest way to learn a language, is to listen to others speaking and speak it yourself.

    Once I brought my cousin to a Ciorcail Chomhrá. He would be like the OP very fearful of the Irish language. Would have never seen the point etc.
    It was funny how eventually he got into it speaking a word here or there. He was mostly listening. And started thinking of Irish.

    In the car back home says he 'jayus, I learnt more in those two/three hours than I did in years of Irish at school'

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #58
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »



    I would agree 100% that it is a tool of communication with links in to my last point easiest way to learn a language, is to listen to others speaking and speak it yourself.

    Once I brought my cousin to a Ciorcail Chomhrá. He would be like the OP very fearful of the Irish language. Would have never seen the point etc.
    It was funny how eventually he got into it speaking a word here or there. He was mostly listening. And started thinking of Irish.

    In the car back home says he 'jayus, I learnt more in those two/three hours than I did in years of Irish at school'

    Its like having a door stepping Jehovah who just won't leave. Don't care about your links.
    Not interested in learning. Full stop.

    You like it, we get it, fair play. I couldn't give a rats ass.


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    #59
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,312 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Its like having a door stepping Jehovah who just won't leave. Don't care about your links.
    Not interested in learning. Full stop.

    You like it, we get it, fair play. I couldn't give a rats ass.

    It is nothing to do with Jehovah and you don't have to be so angry about it.

    If you don't like Irish fine. Change the dial. But if a few words of Irish even on the news makes you so angry. Using phrases like 'rat's ass' and 'door stepping Jehovah' it does make me question whether your previous post was genuine.

    In that, you said you view a 'language as a tool for communication'. If you really held this view you would not seem so angry about hearing a few words of Irish on the radio.

    Nor would you be blind to the richness of a language and the different viewpoint it can give. Not just Irish, any language.

    I suspect that your main gripe is just because it is Irish, and you don't wish to see anyone else who has an interest in it. Because it would be much easier to play the 'pointless dead language' narrative?

    Is that the game? The self hating Irish person who views Irish as a relic of the past?

    Fair enough if you think that. But why the level of anger?

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #60
    gourcuff
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭gourcuff


    the people who give out about the irish language are often monolingual.

    Its nothing to do with the irish language per se, it is every language that is not english.

    They were crap at french and german at school as well, they holiday in the ex-pat boozed up brits abroad parts of europe, and grunt and point ignorantly if ever forced to speak another language in a restaurant or shop.

    Irish people shouldn't take it personally against the irish language, these people are usually crap at every other language.


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    #61
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,827 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    It is nothing to do with Jehovah and you don't have to be so angry about it.

    If you don't like Irish fine. Change the dial. But if a few words of Irish even on the news makes you so angry. Using phrases like 'rat's ass' and 'door stepping Jehovah' it does make me question whether your previous post was genuine.

    In that, you said you view a 'language as a tool for communication'. If you really held this view you would not seem so angry about hearing a few words of Irish on the radio.

    Nor would you be blind to the richness of a language and the different viewpoint it can give. Not just Irish, any language.

    I suspect that your main gripe is just because it is Irish, and you don't wish to see anyone else who has an interest in it. Because it would be much easier to play the 'pointless dead language' narrative?

    Is that the game? The self hating Irish person who views Irish as a relic of the past?

    Fair enough if you think that. But why the level of anger?

    You're confusing anger with apathy.


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