The Bi-Lingual Auditory Assult By Newstalk

PopePalpatine

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Research has shown this:

https://www.forasnagaeilge.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Attitudes-towards-Irish-2015.pdf

40 per cent wished the language to be revived with over 50 per cent wishing it to be preserved. (2009)

In the Republic, almost two-thirds (64 per cent) believe that Ireland would lose its identity without the Irish language. (2013)

According to the 2013 Irish Language Survey, there was support for teaching of the Irish language in schools with four-in-five adults in the Republic agreeing that the language should be available as a subject in school.

A 207 page report, they don't do their Gish Gallops by halves do they?

God forbid that Foras's gravy train gets derailed.

gormdubhgorm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

A 207 page report, they don't do their Gish Gallops by halves do they?

God forbid that Foras's gravy train gets derailed.

You have gone off tangent on another anti-Irish language rant. Rather than discussing the facts at issue in the report.

I assume if there was no report or no source given. The usual boards.ie comment would appear 'have you got a source for that?' :rolleyes:

But now since a source is given the source itself is attacked. For being too comprehensive and a waste of money! :rolleyes:

Instead you should really be asking why your attitude is like this regarding the Irish language. If we go back to the OP's initial post we will see that the underlying argument of the OP is the same.

Even a bilingual news report offends the OP. Even though there was English side by side with it.

What exactly is wrong with that?
Why is it offensive?

I notice neither of those questions have yet to be answered on this thread. There has only been the usual throw away remarks from a certain cohort of individual.

My view is there is nothing wrong with it nor is it offensive. The problems are with the individual(s) who have their own 'underlying issues' regarding the Irish language. Inadequacy, fear or whatever you wish to call it. The underlying problem is not the Irish language itself or Newstalk.

iffandonlyif

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm sure this is just a typo, but in case anyone should think us a bheith ró-dairíre go deo (humourless bastards), I found this statistic to be very amusing, like one of them old Soviet-era approval statistics.

He was accounting for the beliefs of the dead.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is again noticeable that you did not answer any of my questions regarding the use of Irish words in day to day Irish live.

On all Irish radio we hear the words 'Taoiseach', 'Tainiste', 'Dàil', 'Luas', 'Oireachteas'. In Irish life these words are commonly used.

People know their meaning in a news report and normal conversation. I assume you use many of those words in conversation and understand them on radio?

If you do not like the Irish language language so much (like the OP) why do you use those Irish language words in conversation? And also, how are you and the OP able to understand them?

Hilariously, your argument proves what I have said all along and which you repeatedly fail to comprehend: it is not the language people object to, it is the way in which it is promoted!

And, by the way, they're spelt 'Tanaiste' and 'Oireachtas'. What was it you said about the irony of misspelling?!

gormdubhgorm

iffandonlyif wrote: »

.
your argument proves what I have said all along and which you repeatedly fail to comprehend: it is not the language people object to, it is the way in which it is promoted

Not true if you look at the OP's comment and subsequent comments from the OP the issue is clearly NOT with the way the Irish language is 'promoted'.

It is CLEARLY because the OP has issues with the Irish language as you yourself may also have.

eirman wrote: »

I strenuously object to the creeping intrusion of the gaelic language several times an hour on Newstalk bulletins.
It offends my auditory senses and is forcing me away Newstalk.
(I can never get to the mute function quick enough).

Appeal To Newstalk Management:
Please don't let a minority force their beliefs on the majority.

eirman wrote: »

I was taught to despise the language in school.
The very sound of the language grates on my senses!

I know it sounds weird, but I am a product of the Irish educational system.

Yet another poster soon after said they had exactly the opposite experience and they too are a product of the Irish education system.

It is clear the OP has 'underlying issues' with the Irish language and it not simply about the promotion of the language.

I am not sure whether you have the same 'underlying issues'. But you seem to have jumped on the 'promotion' angle. You continuously erroneously apply the OP's problem with the Irish language as a 'promotional' one. This is clearly false as proven by the OP's own words. The OP's has an issue with the Irish language, full stop.

You also ignore the question as to why hearing Irish on the radio is offensive?

You were also unable to describe what 'Irishness' means to you which was telling. Even briefly.

You deliberately use the word 'Gaelic' for Irish or Gaeilge which is telling.
They are all 'tells' as they would say in poker.

EmmetSpiceland

Unless you’re talking to an American, or other foreigners, calling the language “Gaelic” is very odd. And, even then, you’d probably say “Irish Gaelic”, or vice versa.

PopePalpatine

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You have gone off tangent on another anti-Irish language rant. Rather than discussing the facts at issue in the report.

I assume if there was no report or no source given. The usual boards.ie comment would appear 'have you got a source for that?' :rolleyes:

But now since a source is given the source itself is attacked. For being too comprehensive and a waste of money! :rolleyes:

Instead you should really be asking why your attitude is like this regarding the Irish language. If we go back to the OP's initial post we will see that the underlying argument of the OP is the same.

Even a bilingual news report offends the OP. Even though there was English side by side with it.

What exactly is wrong with that?
Why is it offensive?

I notice neither of those questions have yet to be answered on this thread. There has only been the usual throw away remarks from a certain cohort of individual.

My view is there is nothing wrong with it nor is it offensive. The problems are with the individual(s) who have their own 'underlying issues' regarding the Irish language. Inadequacy, fear or whatever you wish to call it. The underlying problem is not the Irish language itself or Newstalk.

I personally don't have any problem with Newstalk's bilingual news report. It's their station, their choice, even if their choice is just a cynical ploy for another government grant or tax write-off that's part and parcel of the language's life support.

In fact, maybe the inadequacy lies somewhere else, with a language with a media that depends desperately on government funding.

gormdubhgorm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Unless you’re talking to an American, or other foreigners, calling the language “Gaelic” is very odd. And, even then, you’d probably say “Irish Gaelic”, or vice versa.

There is a definite clear intent there from the OP. Which is obvious to anyone who knows this.

Ironically, another poster has been constantly using a promotional of Irish angle to try and defend the OP.

When the OP never even mentioned 'promotion'. Nor was the OP even aware the use of the Irish language for 'seachtain na gaeilge'. The OP's whole basis of argument seems to be that he/she despises the language and 'its very sound' grates on his/her senses. The OP used language such as 'Gaelic', 'beliefs' and so on.

It does not sound like reasoned or impartial argument to me. In fact to me it sounds like an irrational hatred with no foundation base on logic whatsoever. Pure irrational hatred, nothing more, nothing less.

If the OP came back to this thread it would be interest to find out the OP's level of educational attainment. Their background, and if they have any interest in any languages at all. Plus what their proficiency in them is.

Because in my experience people who are more open to languages (or even life and cultures itself) certainly would not have this irrational hatred towards the Irish language. Unless there is an unlying cause. Or something 'snapped' somewhere.

eirman wrote: »

I strenuously object to the creeping intrusion of the gaelic language several times an hour on Newstalk bulletins.
It offends my auditory senses and is forcing me away Newstalk.
(I can never get to the mute function quick enough).

Appeal To Newstalk Management:
Please don't let a minority force their beliefs on the majority.

eirman wrote: »

I was taught to despise the language in school.
The very sound of the language grates on my senses!

I know it sounds weird, but I am a product of the Irish educational system.

Morathi wrote: »

It's just for seachtain na gaeilge*, you'll be able to understand when they say "and that's all the news for now/more in an hour" in a week or two.

I know these times are hard, but hang in there. If the world got through Megan and Harry leaving Buckingham, you can overcome this tragedy.


* This means Irish Language Week**

** Oddly runs for over two weeks.

eirman wrote: »

Thanks Morathi - So you are saying that things will be back to normal soon?
Great news - I can now shelve plans to write to the station!

gormdubhgorm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I personally don't have any problem with Newstalk's bilingual news report. It's their station, their choice, even if their choice is just a cynical ploy for another government grant or tax write-off that's part and parcel of the language's life support.

In fact, maybe the inadequacy lies somewhere else, with a language with a media that depends desperately on government funding.

I agree with you to an extent. The Irish language could be dealt with more wholesomely across the board rather than in piecemeal fashion.

However, Seachtaine na Gaeilge does work to some extent. In that it gives people who have 'school Irish' a chance to use it for the fun of it. And if it sparks an interest or renewed interest in the language there is no harm in it.
Seachtaine na Gaeilge is designed as a little nudge to the Irish population.

Offices using Irish even for the day or whatever or even an hour two. I remember back when I spoke a lot less Irish than I do now. And they had a day like that in the office where people spoke Irish to each other. I was terrified I would get the grammar wrong not know words.
Basically through lack of use, and lack of confidence in speaking the language.

But sure, once I started getting going I was grand. I remember someone started laughing and said - 'you have Irish!'

OK, there is a vocal minority like the OP which would be completely affronted by the whole idea. But the silent majority would not mind Newstalk putting on a few words of Irish in a few newsreports. The reaction would certainly not be as negative and visceral among the majority of the Irish population.

Hotblack Desiato

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

BAI and the Irish constitution is part of the Irish state and applies to radio.

The constitutional claim that Irish is the first language of the state is a nonsense and always has been. The mother tongue of the vast majority of the people is not Irish. Might I remind you our constitution also states a woman's place is in the home...

The BAI requirements (not just Irish, lots of things) are a farce and are strangling radio in this country.

PopePalpatine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

A 207 page report, they don't do their Gish Gallops by halves do they?

God forbid that Foras's gravy train gets derailed.

It’s an report by the ESRI. Foras merely commissioned it. The size was up to them.

I’ve often wondered about whether online forums reflect real life, especially in 2021 and in the pandemic when most people are online. You’d think it might.

Given the discrepancy between attitudes on this thread - not just comments but thanks - I wonder about boards. Especially given the views expressed the most forcefully here as what “people think” are a tiny minority.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The constitutional claim that Irish is the first language of the state is a nonsense and always has been. The mother tongue of the vast majority of the people is not Irish. Might I remind you our constitution also states a woman's place is in the home...

The BAI requirements (not just Irish, lots of things) are a farce and are strangling radio in this country.

A constitutional claim can’t really be nonsense. It’s not saying that the language is widely spoken either. Just that it takes precedence in certain cases.

The mention of the constitutional claim about a woman’s place being in the home is interesting because the citizens assembly is discussing it now. It’s not going to stay but they aren’t sure what’s going to replace it.

Anyway 66% of the members are randomly selected. And they can come up with amendments. So let’s see if they want to drop the Irish language and Sendung that to the public.

Might be worth trying actually. Bring some people out if the woodwork

Hotblack Desiato

It'd be political suicide. Remember about ten years ago when Enda Kenny said that we might consider making Irish optional for the Leaving and there were demonstrations with people with their mouths taped up ffs. Not because they were not being allowed do something, but because they wanted other people to be compelled to do something.

Oh and they had lots of nice expensive placards too, no doubt ultimately paid for by the taxpayer.

Compulsion has been disastrous for the language.

gormdubhgorm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The constitutional claim that Irish is the first language of the state is a nonsense and always has been. The mother tongue of the vast majority of the people is not Irish. Might I remind you our constitution also states a woman's place is in the home...

The BAI requirements (not just Irish, lots of things) are a farce and are strangling radio in this country.

I agree with you on the constitutional claim as it is nominally aspirational. But does serve act as a preservative for the Irish language in a legal sense. I look on it like perseverative in jam. The BAI sort of pretend to follow the line as far as I see it.

But bits of Irish here and there such as Newstalk do help keep Irish in the public consciousness even in a limited way.


It does not exactly state a woman's place is in the home (it was very cleverly worded I think for 1937) :

Article 41.2 states:

1. In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2. The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home

Whatever about the 'wimmin', I think the Irish language is important for the 'common good'.

And although the BAI in Irish radio and reality of the Irish language v the statement in the constitution could better.
It is better than nothing which is the likely alternative.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It'd be political suicide. Remember about ten years ago when Enda Kenny said that we might consider making Irish optional for the Leaving and there were demonstrations with people with their mouths taped up ffs. Not because they were not being allowed do something, but because they wanted other people to be compelled to do something.

Oh and they had lots of nice expensive placards too, no doubt ultimately paid for by the taxpayer.

Yeh, its political suicide because most people don't agree with you.

Compulsion has been disastrous for the language.

In terms of compulsion Irish probably has to be as compulsory as English constitutionally. Which doesn't mean Irish can't be made non compulsory in school but that English has to probably have the same status.

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Might be worth trying actually. Bring some people out if the woodwork

The usual shower who make a lot of well meaning noises about retaining it but can't be bothered using it themselves.
Dog in a manger stuff.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

The usual shower who make a lot of well meaning noises about retaining it but can't be bothered using it themselves.
Dog in a manger stuff.

By out of the wood work I mean y'all anti Irish language campaigners. Never seen nor heard outside the internet.

It's perfectly legitimate to be in favour of Irish maintaining a status while not using it. Thats my position.

fvp4

fvp4 wrote: »

By out of the wood work I mean y'all anti Irish language campaigners. Never seen nor heard outside the internet.

It's perfectly legitimate to be in favour of Irish maintaining a status while not using it. Thats my position.

I can understand the opposition to compulsory Irish, I can even understand the opposition to any further funding for the promotion of the language. I disagree, but there is a cogent argument to be made along a pretty clear line of thought.

What I do not understand, and I'd love someone to explain, is the specific opposition to hearing Irish language snippets on the radio. Snippets, like. I just want to understand why it provokes people.

By the way, someone earlier mentioned Seachtain na Gaeilge. I don't know if anyone here listens to the Beo ar Éigean podcast on RTE Radio 1. Anyway, during Seachtain na Gaeilge the hosts were basically complaining about the event, arguing that it's tokenistic, a box-ticking exercise, which I thought was an interesting view I hadn't heard before. I think they're right. The radio stations are great to promote the language for the (two weeks of) Seachtain ba Gaeilge, but after that they sorta give up.

Fair play to Shane Coleman for keeping up with it, though.

Hotblack Desiato

fvp4 wrote: »

Yeh, its political suicide because most people don't agree with you.

It's political suicide because of a very small but very vocal lobby group, which uses taxpayers' money to tell taxpayers what they should think and what their government should do.

A few posts back there was a survey mentioned, it said "40 per cent wished the language to be revived" but 40 percent are not prepared to become fluent in the language themselves, so they are hypocrites and/or just telling the surveyor what they want to hear.

Ask loaded questions, get loaded answers.

In terms of compulsion Irish probably has to be as compulsory as English constitutionally. Which doesn't mean Irish can't be made non compulsory in school but that English has to probably have the same status.

I don't agree that the constitution has any bearing on what LC subjects can be optional. But I would be fine with making both optional at LC.

Dan Jaman

I notice in recent years the Scottish teaching authorities have introduced the teaching of Gaelic into the shools.
As a product of the Scottish education system from 'way back, I only hope the teaching methods have improved.
In spite of being exposed to several psychopaths with the full range of corporal punishment at their disposal, I managed to glean enough to get me by.
However, if any of those nutters had been teaching me Gaelic, I suspect I'd also have an aversion to it.

gourcuff

love the language personally, see a huge revival in the last decade, am making a conscious effort to get back into it with duolingo and an irish language cd in the car.. great to retain some element of cultural identity i feel..