The Bi-Lingual Auditory Assult By Newstalk

gormdubhgorm

whisky_galore wrote: »

You're confusing anger with apathy.

It seems like a rather strong apathy, considering how you post so vociferously about it. For one who has no interest, which seems odd.

Yet views language in general as a 'language of communication' in another post. Which I agree with.

In my opinion, there is a lot of contradictions with you, in any language!

whisky_galore

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It seems like a rather strong apathy, considering how you post so vociferously about it. For one who has no interest, which seems odd.

Yet views language in general as a 'language of communication' in another post. Which I agree with.

In my opinion, there is a lot of contradictions with you, in any language!

Whatever you think yourself.

two wheels good

whisky_galore wrote: »

You're confusing anger with apathy.

Obviously not apathy judging by the tone of your posts.
Elsewhere on the Radio forum .. you were keen to tar the Irish-speaking community on the basis of a few callers whinging on phone-in radio ... with your whingiing on social media.

You've got an axe to grind and any thread will do.

boardise

Happened to hear the end of Newstalk Breakfast today .Things going along nicely until suddenly a babble of strange noises emanated from the radio. I then realised that it was Shane Coleman signing off ,for some inexplicable reason, in Gaelic.
I'm just recovering from this unexpected change of language when the next sound I hear is Ciara Kelly uttering the words ' Tiocfaidh ár lá'.
I nearly fell of the chair at this bizarre carry on. . Here was a broadcaster in a national station mouthing a slogan associated with a terrorist organisation .
What a shame the country can't decide in a calm and reasoned way on a suitable policy for dealing with the minority language Gaelic that doesn't involve shoe-horning it into places where it's not needed -generating confusion, embarrassment and the farcicality on Newstalk this morning.

iffandonlyif

It's staggering the level of ignorance from Irish language enthusiasts about why it is non-enthusiasts would rather not be forced to hear it. Fear, hatred, British allegiance... No! Quite simply, we resent having to listen to a language we don't understand and which is often promoted for political reasons. A language must earn its stripes as measured by number of speakers before it can be justifiably imposed on the overwhelming majority. Incidentally, I would be much more tolerant of an hourly Irish-language programme than one in English containing tokenistic, pidgin Irish.

iffandonlyif

iffandonlyif wrote: »

It's staggering the level of ignorance from Irish language enthusiasts about why it is non-enthusiasts would rather not be forced....

But it isn't being forced on you. Everyone hears things on the radio, whether a fashion item, for example, or cricket scores, which we don't understand nor want to.

There are plenty of us who do want to to hear the first language of the country on national radio, because there is no dedicated Irish-language radio station with a consistent national focus, really until about 4pm weekdays on RnaG, which otherwise is pretty much local radio.

So there is nowhere else for radio listeners to go, in terms of a nationwide broadcaster. I'm sorry you feel put-out by hearing a few sentences in Irish, but rest assured you're not as put-out as people who have very little choice when it comes to Irish language output.

boardise

I would suggest it is a category error to equate the medium with the content.

iffandonlyif

iffandonlyif wrote: »

It's staggering the level of ignorance from Irish language enthusiasts about why it is non-enthusiasts would rather not be forced to hear it. Fear, hatred, British allegiance... No! Quite simply, we resent having to listen to a language we don't understand and which is often promoted for political reasons. A language must earn its stripes as measured by number of speakers before it can be justifiably imposed on the overwhelming majority. Incidentally, I would be much more tolerant of an hourly Irish-language programme than one in English containing tokenistic, pidgin Irish.

This is the most first world of first world problems. There are a few things you can do here:

1) Stop listening to that program.

Oh wait, that is it.

_Kaiser_

iffandonlyif wrote: »

It's staggering the level of ignorance from Irish language enthusiasts about why it is non-enthusiasts would rather not be forced to hear it. Fear, hatred, British allegiance... No! Quite simply, we resent having to listen to a language we don't understand and which is often promoted for political reasons. A language must earn its stripes as measured by number of speakers before it can be justifiably imposed on the overwhelming majority. Incidentally, I would be much more tolerant of an hourly Irish-language programme than one in English containing tokenistic, pidgin Irish.

Most of the stations have this slot at a quiet time of the week, eg: FM104 have an Irish slot on Sunday mornings where the presenter throws in sentences in English randomly as well which is even more jarring. I think it's a licensing thing that they have this show? Same as how the UK TV channels have signed programmes in the early hours.

Irish as a language has been on life support for decades. Anyone who can speak it to a reasonable degree has fluent English, and at this the level of state support and that it's still mandatory in schools is ridiculous at this point - especially as schools become more multicultural.

It's useless in daily life and sucks resources that could be better allocated elsewhere, but if you suggest letting it stand or fall on its own, the outrage from the middle-class types (who will label their kids with obscure Irish names as some sort of trendy fashion statement), and the few Irish speakers is massive (you can see it on this thread even) - it's "our" national language, it's our heritage, and so on, with those against it inferred to be somehow less Irish, less educated, or a West-Brit because of this.

Anyway.. I do remember this coming up on NT Breakfast during "Irish week" (which I never knew was a thing), and Shane committing to keeping it up afterwards. It's a pointless fashion statement as so much of the commentary on this show is anyway though. It's unintelligible to probably over 99% of their audience but if it's only a few phrases at the end of the show it's not a big deal, although I agree that there's no reason for it either.

iffandonlyif

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the most first world of first world problems. There are a few things you can do here:

1) Stop listening to that program.

Oh wait, that is it.

Good lord, an Irish language zealot lecturing me on first-world problems.

Edit: just been given a warning for the above comment by a mod who had earlier engaged in disagreement with me. Staggering how pathetic these people are.

Elmo

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Most of the stations have this slot at a quiet time of the week, eg: FM104 have an Irish slot on Sunday mornings where the presenter throws in sentences in English randomly as well which is even more jarring. I think it's a licensing thing that they have this show? Same as how the UK TV channels have signed programmes in the early hours.

Yeah basically out of prime time in case people's eyes and ears are hurt!

What is more annoying is the Top 40 countdown on Friday Nights on 2fm, it so tokenistic that its almost entirely in English. The presenter can't even seem to do the countdown in Irish, instead cupla focal as gaeilge followed by numbers in English.

gormdubhgorm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's useless in daily life and sucks resources that could be better allocated elsewhere, but if you suggest letting it stand or fall on its own, the outrage from the middle-class types (who will label their kids with obscure Irish names as some sort of trendy fashion statement), and the few Irish speakers is massive (you can see it on this thread even) - it's "our" national language, it's our heritage, and so on, with those against it inferred to be somehow less Irish, less educated, or a West-Brit because of this.

That is a very lazy ill informed narrative. I suggest you do a bit of research.

This is only one example to start you off.

https://www.gscd.ie/

Larbre34

Gaelic isn't a language.

Irish, nó an Gaeilge, is one of the two official languages of this State.

Anyone who objects to it assaulting their ears ought to **** off to any land where only English is spoken. I'd be happy to offer them a lift to the Airport.

gormdubhgorm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Gaelic isn't a language.

Irish, nó an Gaeilge, is one of the two official languages of this State.

Anyone who objects to it assaulting their ears ought to **** off to any land where only English is spoken. I'd be happy to offer them a lift to the Airport.

I think deep down a lot of people who are anti the Irish language. Their own countries language have deep seated insecurities about their Irishness which manifest itself in the hatred of the language. It is clearly shown in this thread.

It is attacked was attacked from both sides of the spectrum in history. The English did a great job of the false narrative that Irish is the language of the poor uneducated.

Now we have many self hating Irish people creating the false narrative that Irish is the language of the middle classes.

I find it amusing to watch. If people don't like it fine. But why do some attack the Irish language as if their life depends on it? What is the seed of the vitriol?

PopePalpatine

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think deep down a lot of people who are anti the Irish language. Their own countries language have deep seated insecurities about their Irishness which manifest itself in the hatred of the language. It is clearly shown in this thread.

It is attacked was attacked from both sides of the spectrum in history. The English did a great job of the false narrative that Irish is the language of the poor uneducated.

Now we have many self hating Irish people creating the false narrative that Irish is the language of the middle classes.

I find it amusing to watch. If people don't like it fine. But why do some attack the Irish language as if their life depends on it? What is the seed of the vitriol?

Let's start with the hundreds of hours wasted at school reading the most dreary prose and poetry in a language 99% of the class won't use after leaving the classroom.

Topics understandably deviate a little bit, which is normal, but just a gentle reminder that this is about occasional Irish phrases on mainly English-language stations, esp. Newstalk, not the school curriculum per se -Mod

gormdubhgorm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Let's start with the hundreds of hours wasted at school reading the most dreary prose and poetry in a language 99% of the class won't use after leaving the classroom.

That is the problem with the way the language is taught and the school system, Not the language itself.

Is there the same feeling about French or German taught in Irish schools.
Or your own languages Italian and Latin.

There is plenty of ciorcal comhra you can go to and have a pint while conversing in Irish for example. No pressure just a nice atmosphere.

If you listened to the few Irish words on Newstalk you might pick up a few in non-academic/pressured environment.
If you find that is too much of a chore for you. Maybe something else is the issue?

iffandonlyif

Larbre34 wrote: »

Irish, nó an Gaeilge.

Lol.

gormdubhgorm

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Lol.

The poster is correct though.

https://www.unitedlanguagegroup.com/blog/gaelic-irish-differences

Also people should be aware of the Irish Language Plan by the BAI

https://www.bai.ie/en/bai-publishes-irish-language-action-plan/ - which may explain the questions on this thread.

Elmo

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The poster is correct though.

https://www.unitedlanguagegroup.com/blog/gaelic-irish-differences

Also people should be aware of the Irish Language Plan by the BAI

https://www.bai.ie/en/bai-publishes-irish-language-action-plan/ - which may explain the questions on this thread.

I think the BAI probably aren't all that aware of that plan or any other paper they have written.

PopePalpatine

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is the problem with the way the language is taught and the school system, Not the language itself.

Is there the same feeling about French or German taught in Irish schools.
Or your own languages Italian and Latin.

There is plenty of ciorcal comhra you can go to and have a pint while conversing in Irish for example. No pressure just a nice atmosphere.

If you listened to the few Irish words on Newstalk you might pick up a few in non-academic/pressured environment.
If you find that is too much of a chore for you. Maybe something else is the issue?

You asked why there's so much "vitriol" towards Irish and I gave you an explanation, but apparently that wasn't good enough.

I'm personally consigned to the fact that Irish language education reform is decades away. There's just too many vested interests at play, be it teachers, civil servants or parish pump politicians.

iffandonlyif

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The poster is correct though.

https://www.unitedlanguagegroup.com/blog/gaelic-irish-differences

Also people should be aware of the Irish Language Plan by the BAI

https://www.bai.ie/en/bai-publishes-irish-language-action-plan/ - which may explain the questions on this thread.

I was laughing at the peculiar tendency to force unnecessary Irish words into English sentences, in this case 'nó an'.


As the article you link itself acknowledges, 'Gaelic' is perfectly acceptable when referring to the traditional language of Scotland, which completely refutes the common Gaeilgor argument that Gaelic is an adjective - "it's like calling English 'Germanic'," etc. While not the official name of the Irish language, only a dogmatist could object to its use. Luckily the Irish language has plenty of those.

Elmo

Elmo wrote: »

I think the BAI probably aren't all that aware of that plan or any other paper they have written.

Why?

I can't seem to click through to the report itself, maybe the link is broken, and the summary doesn't give much insight. What is it that makes you think the BAI is unaware of its own report?.

Elmo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Why?

I can't seem to click through to the report itself, maybe the link is broken, and the summary doesn't give much insight. What is it that makes you think the BAI is unaware of its own report?.

I have very low opinion of the BAI.

gormdubhgorm

iffandonlyif wrote: »

I was laughing at the peculiar tendency to force unnecessary Irish words into English sentences, in this case 'nó an'.


As the article you link itself acknowledges, 'Gaelic' is perfectly acceptable when referring to the traditional language of Scotland, which completely refutes the common Gaeilgor argument that Gaelic is an adjective - "it's like calling English 'Germanic'," etc. While not the official name of the Irish language, only a dogmatist could object to its use. Luckily the Irish language has plenty of those.

I realise all that but Gaelic when discussing Irish is normally the phrase used by foreigners or for foreigners who use it in place of Irish.

https://www.bitesize.irish/gaelic-irish-language/

That is the key.

And Gaelic refers to Scots Gaelic.

For an Irish person to use the word 'Gaelic' to describe the Irish language they are:

1) Either talking to foreigners
2) Being deliberately obtuse
3) Trying to distant themselves from the Irish language

It is similar to Irish people who insist on saying 'TG four'


As for your question as to why people break into Irish when discussing the word 'Gaeilge'. It is because they are thinking in Irish and not English. I always find it charming. Similar to how a French person / person thinking in French would say 'en français'.

The thinking in English is a problem to be open to listening to Irish on the radio.
If more Irish people removed that baggage/mindset they would be open to listening to words and phrases. Like on the Newstalk radio for example. It is key to learning a language to think in that language. Take down the mental barriers. Now whether the OP is willing to do so is the OP's personal choice.

I realise there are some Irish language zealots who hate grammar errors or want the Kerry Reg changed to 'C'. Because there is no 'K' in Irish.

But this thread shows the ugly other side - it is indicative of the close minded, self hating Irish Person when it comes to the Irish Language. A psychologist would have a field day with it.

Elmo

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I realise there are some Irish language zealots who hate grammar errors or want the Kerry Reg changed to 'C'. Because there is no 'K' in Irish.

I though Kerry was KY reg, they get a single letter? I though only cities got single letters. Also all regs have the name of the county in Irish above the English letter.

gormdubhgorm

Elmo wrote: »

I though Kerry was KY reg, they get a single letter? I though only cities got single letters. Also all regs have the name of the county in Irish above the English letter.

I mean there is no 'K' in the Irish language so some people in the Kerry Gaeltacht want the 'KY' reg changed.

The Irish word for Kerry is 'Ciarraí'.

In my opinion it is unnecessary wanting to change the Kerry reg (just an example from the top of my head) and is the opposite end of the spectrum of this thread.

There has to be give and take. A middle ground imo.

iffandonlyif

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I realise all that but Gaelic when discussing Irish is normally the phrase used by foreigners or for foreigners who use it in place of Irish.

https://www.bitesize.irish/gaelic-irish-language/

That is the key.

And Gaelic refers to Scots Gaelic.

For an Irish person to use the word 'Gaelic' to describe the Irish language they are:

1) Either talking to foreigners
2) Being deliberately obtuse
3) Trying to distant themselves from the Irish language

It is similar to Irish people who insist on saying 'TG four'


As for your question as to why people break into Irish when discussing the word 'Gaeilge'. It is because they are thinking in Irish and not English. I always find it charming. Similar to how a French person / person thinking in French would say 'en français'.

The thinking in English is a problem to be open to listening to Irish on the radio.
If more Irish people removed that baggage/mindset they would be open to listening to words and phrases. Like on the Newstalk radio for example. It is key to learning a language to think in that language. Take down the mental barriers. Now whether the OP is willing to do so is the OP's personal choice.

I realise there are some Irish language zealots who hate grammar errors or want the Kerry Reg changed to 'C'. Because there is no 'K' in Irish.

But this thread shows the ugly other side - it is indicative of the close minded, self hating Irish Person when it comes to the Irish Language. A psychologist would have a field day with it.

I agree, it's unusual to hear Irish people innocently saying Gaelic in place of Irish. But if people want to say Gaelic - provocatively or otherwise - they should be entitled to. None of this, 'It's Gaeilge because we've decided it is.' And, incidentally, I don't agree that it is unreasonable for a non-Irish speaker to say 'tee-gee-four'.


To describe it as self-hating is provocative. One is free to choose what parts of Irish history and culture they identify with. Many Irish choose not to identify with the Ascendancy. It would be wrong to accuse them of self-hatred.

gormdubhgorm

iffandonlyif wrote: »

I agree, it's unusual to hear Irish people innocently saying Gaelic in place of Irish. But if people want to say Gaelic - provocatively or otherwise - they should be entitled to. None of this, 'It's Gaeilge because we've decided it is.' And, incidentally, I don't agree that it is unreasonable for a non-Irish speaker to say 'tee-gee-four'.


To describe it as self-hating is provocative. One is free to choose what parts of Irish history and culture they identify with. Many Irish choose not to identify with the Ascendancy. It would be wrong to accuse them of self-hatred.

I am calling it as it is. It is very transparent. The OP is a classic case of a self-hating Irish person.

Styling themselves as erudite, 'wordly' and so on. Yet have an illogical gripe where he/she described hearing a few words of Irish as an 'auditory assault' on an Irish radio station .

The two ways of thinking and the OP's use of language seem incongruent to my mind.

If a person truly sought and or appreciated knowledge and culture they would not have a vehement hatred of any language. Never mind Irish.

People who are born and bred in Ireland (plus attended the Irish education system) yet refuse to say 'TG ceathair' and instead steadfastly say 'TG four' have underlying issues in my opinion. That is just the truth of it.

It is a clear indicator of a mindset. If someone was talking about TV5 (the French channel) I would say 'TV cinq'. Simply because that is the name of the station and I know the word for five is cinq.

In my opinion the OP is clearly a self hating Irish person.
It is not provocative in my opinion, just a fact of life.

Would you get an Eastern European person, Chinese person (who live in Ireland) creating a thread such as this?

I think not, because they appreciate culture and language. And they live in Ireland.

It speaks volumes.

iffandonlyif

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would you get an Eastern European person, Chinese person (who live in Ireland) creating a thread such as this?

This is to completely misunderstand OP's mindset. No, of course you wouldn't, for the reason that OP dislikes the intrusion of Irish not because of its oral qualities but because of the cultural intentions of its promoters.


You talk about self-hate. That claim is premised on the belief that an Irish person ought to embrace the language of their ancestors. It's beliefs like that from Irish-enthusiasts that cause people to resist the language.