Creche charging for child's place during closure.

I think everyone has to play fair here. Something like half seems about right, ATM. Also I think their will be some system put in place to use these workers to look after the children of medical personnel. So the creche may not be out of any wages if the system is joined up. The creche provides the workers to mind children in peoples homes. The Govn't provides the insurance and the wages.
So it could end up being a much smaller, retainer fee to the creche.
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0318/1123846-social-protection/

We've paid up for March and I'm ok with that but I see this situation running through the summer. I'd have to seriously consider changing shifts at work and switching to part time in the creche or completely pulling the plug. We've already had to take enough days off work due to regulations around high temperatures, etc. There are plenty that can well afford it and also have a good network of family in the local area to help out when needs be. We're not in either of those positions

pavelpro wrote: »

Can creche/after school ask for the prove that You lost job to asses your credibility to pay?

I am thinking to give a month notice as we already paid for March and it will be half a month for April to get free from them. I understand their situation but with my wife loosing her job i am not in position to pay them at all. I dont think i will have any difficulty to sign in again if only they not going to take it personally.

They won’t take it personal they are a business. They may not be around when you try to go back.

L'prof wrote: »

We've paid up for March and I'm ok with that but I see this situation running through the summer. I'd have to seriously consider changing shifts at work and switching to part time in the creche or completely pulling the plug. We've already had to take enough days off work due to regulations around high temperatures, etc. There are plenty that can well afford it and also have a good network of family in the local area to help out when needs be. We're not in either of those positions

Our crèche has just informed us that they won’t be charging us past 29th of March and will be keeping places. Wasn’t expecting that. Very happy

Arciphel wrote: »

Very decent of them. Are they a chain of creches or a sole operator?

Sole operator as far as I know

AdMMM wrote: »

We've paid for this month but will have to contact them about next month because of how uncertain the wages are for us.

I know places are hard to come by for child care, but if closures continue into next month, they wouldn't be able to get in any new kids until they open again. It works in everyone's favour to reach a compromise here.

Some won’t open again though. There does need to be a compromise but some won’t reopen. It’s going to be a mess with both parents and providers suffering.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

All indicators are pointing to schools not reopening until September. Primary school might make it back for a few weeks in June.

The EU travel ban is for 30 days initially and might be extended. This is a very strong indicator that crèches will be closed for at least another month but probably longer AND the 30 day ban hasn't even started yet. The lock down in China is still in place so again this points to at least two to three months but probably longer. Northern Ireland are taking about closing schools for four months when they do decide to close them. England are taking about 4 months forced isolation for OAPs and people who are at risk.

There is absolutely nothing in the media or coming from the government that suggests that this will end within the next month. Gardai and health board have leased vehicles for an initial four months.

I suggest that you plan for an initial two months with the possibility of it going four months

I think this will go on, and either the Childcare place we use is clueless, has their head buried in the sand or what I think is most likely, they are giving out no information because they just hope/expect parents to keep paying out which is a completely unrealistic situation. I fully expect to get an email containing a veiled threat about our childs place near the end of the month or at the very last minute to put fear into parents who wont have enough time to think it through. I have no intention of being blackmailed.

amadangomor wrote: »

It really is amazing that people are being asked to pay for a service when they are not getting said service.

It is not any consumers of a service's responsibility to pay staff wages when not availing of a service. There are social supports which are set up to deal with situations like this.

This will go on until the summer at least so no creche until September probably and when they do reopen they will be crying out for children to fill the places as the economy will be in trouble with unfortunately many people unemployed.

Don't fall for any emotional blackmail employed by the creches to make you feel like you should pay to keep a place or to contribute to their employees wages

Agreed,

Arciphel wrote: »

So in this scenario, parents continue to pay the creche, the creche pay the employees and then at some stage in the future the creche owner will receive the €203 per worker per week refund. Are they then going to divide that up and give it back to the parents who paid their fees during the closure? Are they going to give it to their employees? No, they are most likely going to trouser it. The only people who will get punished here are the parents who continue to pay the fees.

Assuming that (unfortunately) most creche staff are on minimum wage that means their pay is about €414 a week. Deduct €203, it's about half. Taking into account the reduction in utilities, food etc. it seems a common sense solution would be to pay half fees during the closure, if you can. I am being off the wall here?

I dont expect that off the business we deal with, half cost, not likely, I see no reason in subsidising their business obligations when no service is possible, not even half, especially as we have heard nothing from them, other than the last parting comment by the manager saying its unexpected (not in my opinion) and not their fault (neither is it any parents fault).

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

If our creche is anything to go by, they will play hardball with every parent and tell them that everyone else is paying in full, even if that is not the case. They big up things like bringing the kitchen and facilities up to the required standards like they're doing us a favour.
That's why I will be monitoring here closely and engaging with as many other parents in our creche as possible.

Id like to be able to get in touch with parents, not really much opportunity, other than a passing hello when classes were on, everyone is just busy coming and going in my experience. I think the business in question will play hardball like you say.

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Our creche sent an email shortly after the closure last week to ask us to keep paying so they can pay their staff. We had already paid March fees for our 2 kids but considering not doing so from April omwards. Realistically the creches are going to be closed for months and our job security is tenous at the moment. Like everything Coronavirus related it's a **** situation but I can't justify paying full amount for service we aren't getting

Initially, the Govt responded too little, too late, now they are over doing it, while I agree with social isolationat the moment, Im beginning to wonder if it would be better to maintain whats going on for a time to "flatten the curve" to allow the health service to cope better, but after that to encourage social isolation more for people at risk. Ive been told children can be carriers, but they and other people of a certain age or even health category aren't affected. Im beginning to think this situation has gone past the point where continued isolation will actually help in the longterm.

L'prof wrote: »

Our crèche has just informed us that they won’t be charging us past 29th of March and will be keeping places. Wasn’t expecting that. Very happy

This is realistic and very sensible on their part, no one need pay for a service they cant avail of, no worry or concern about getting customers for them.

Water John wrote: »

I'm beginning to think this situation has gone past the point where continued isolation will actually help in the longterm. 1874 Quote.

Really dangerous thinking. We know about 20% of positive tests need hospitalisation. The number is going up exponentially. If we reach 15,000 positives by the end of the month, about 3,000 will have been hospitalised. Worse is the number needing ventilators, which we don't have.
Medics in a few weeks may have to decide, basically who lives and dies. I'm not being alarmist. Our only action that can limit the number infected is, social isolation.

As I said, in the longterm, as at that point, so many people will have gotten it and hopefully have developed some kind of immunity, and until a vaccine is developed, now is not longterm.

Now, isolation, absolutely,
Im suggesting, down the road, those that are most likely to be affected might be better or essential to isolate themselves AND also potentially first in line to receive a vaccination.
We cant all stay isolated forever,
It will be said its easy for me to say, but I was full on early on for banning flights from affected areas, closing down large gatherings and not allowing entry or Quarantining or returning anyone immediately who arrives here from those places (unfortunately there is nor ever was any plan for that), seems we could have the ability and spaces but no will (infrastructure/reserves/plan) to carry it out, and as drastic as that seems even now it would have done a lot more to flatten the curve and protected vulnerable people more before we got to where we are now.

polydactyl wrote: »

I had no problem paying for the full two weeks of March as we are still earning but as we both work front line for the HSE we both need to go in to work in all this so need to arrange alternate childcare. I certainly can’t afford to pay the Creche and in addition someone else to mind my kids regardless of them losing a place. I’ll have to risk it if that’s the case. I could manage reduced fees possibly while paying someone else but can’t do both.

I wonder have the government any plans to help people in your situation. It’s crazy that they’re paying teachers full wages, paying crèche workers whatever benefit they’re getting and you’re having to worry about this, in addition to all the other worries your job brings at the moment. Similar problems for shop workers, and all essential services that can’t operate from home. There surely should be some arrangement for the above to offer some childcare, however it would be rolled out, using school or crèche buildings. I’ll be in a similar position in a few weeks as will be returning to work post mat leave. My childminder may still take my kids, but she’s >60, so I’d really rather not ask.

salmocab wrote: »

The answer isn’t using school or crèche buildings as the mixing of children is why they are closed down.

I’m not suggesting that the schools should reopen, but if every teacher in my sons school took just four children in a class room, they could be kept >2M apart, and there would be 40 children that frontline workers wouldn’t be stressing about what to do with in the day times. For insurance reasons etc, we couldn’t exactly ask our kids teachers to pop over to our house to mind them.
I’m not saying this is the answer, I’m just saying that if this is going to be ongoing, and it is, someone needs to come up with a system that supports frontline workers rather than adding childcare to a long list of worries

salmocab wrote: »

It’s not the answer, children need to be kept apart and that wouldn’t happen in your scenario. There does need to be something setup alright and I’d think childcare workers that are Garda vetted and probably on either reduced payments or SW minding at the child’s home is far more feasible than opening places that are shut to stop the spread.

Except that if the carer trips and breaks their leg whilst minding the kids, there’s no insurance cover in place.

salmocab wrote: »

So you want someone to come up with a system but think that insurance is insurmountable? People look after kids in people’s homes every day I’d be confident something could be easily done on that score.

No, I don’t think it’s insurmountable. I just think we’ve proven in this country time and time again that it tends to be a major issue.

salmocab wrote: »

I’d say insurance would be one of the simplest parts to sort out.

Well hopefully someone will sort something, to make it simpler for those that need it most

pwurple wrote: »

You're saying the privatisation of childcare, like there was a public system to begin with...

Creches have evolved, been created by entrepreneurial hardworking small business women (for the most part), to help the rest of us out. To provide a service where none existed. There was no such thing as a creche when I was a baby. Childcare facility regulations didn't even exist here in this country until 2006. First aid, management, staff-child ratios, behaviour management, fire safety measures, premises and facilities, heating, ventilation, lighting, facilities for rest and play... all that was defined in 2006. That expense, those regulations, all of it fell on creches to build and pay for. This is when the HSE started to regulate and inspect creches.

It was 2009 before a curriculum appeared. Aistear, followed by the first phase of ECCE 2010. Second phase of ECCE was end of 2016. Slowly, ebbing towards some shape of a public system.

Childcare education in colleges has appeared, where there was none before. All driven by, built and lobbied for by our hardworking childcare sector. I know women who set up creches and also teach in these college courses. Building , building, building.


What I'm saying is, we have a heck of a lot to thank our childcare sector workers and creche owners for.

I support them!

And that's why people significant fees on a monthly basis.

That isn't up for discussion here though.

This is parents being expected to continue paying fees for a service not being in receipt of. Show me one other sector of society where that holds? Regulations or not?

lawred2 wrote: »

And that's why people significant fees on a monthly basis.

That isn't up for discussion here though.

This is parents being expected to continue paying fees for a service not being in receipt of. Show me one other sector of society where that holds? Regulations or not?

Any company that has employees working from home is paying the same amount of wages for what is, in most cases, significantly reduced output.

GreeBo wrote:

But how about this side of things...when all this is over, will you expect your childrens creche places to still be available?

That would be effectively extortion by the creche. Payment should be for a service, not the threat of removal of a place.

I'd say the demand for childminders is going through the roof at the moment

dubrov wrote: »

That would be effectively extortion by the creche. Payment should be for a service, not the threat of removal of a place.

I'd say the demand for childminders is going through the roof at the moment

If you stop paying, why would they keep your place??

1874 wrote: »

But this is a situation where the customer is getting zero/nothing/nada, can you give me another example where another individual or business which would pay for NO SERVICE off a business?
Childcare staff may be at home, but their output is significantly reduced to zero, not a limited amount that means work is being completed, by the nature of that work and many others, work from home is not possible.


Im not faulting them for that, but its not of my/our/parents fault (which was the rationale/excuse given to me for why I would still be charged for childcare with no service).
The businesses who are charging past March are doing it for themselves, not their staff, many of which are already not being paid anyway.
There is in effect blackmail in place by suggesting or outright stating that a childs place will only be reserved if people continue to pay. Even making NO statement as has been missing from the business/childcare service I have up till now being paying/paid for already (in advance) is unacceptable.

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle and will be different for each creche.

No point in paying them nothing and then they close their doors for good and parents are screwed.


You call it blackmail, but can you give me another example where an individual or business would guarantee a resumption of service without any payment during the times of no service?

I wouldnt expect a hotel to keep my room free for me in between my bookings for example.

powerstar wrote: »

Hi,
Is there any legal way we approach this problem, I am sure creches can get support form govt like any other business now. I wonder why no one in the govt talking about this huge issue. It's better they come with a plan rather than each creche deciding their own rules.

I guess their response is that you are free to cancel at any time...at the moment they are effectively charging people every month to keep their place, lots of private schools charge you to hold a place, its just that its a one off charge.

My crèche is asking for 50%. While I’m not delighted at the prospect of paying, for me I’m happy to do my bit to try to make sure it survives this and reopens.

Apart from the shortage of childcare places in general, for me it’s more that I don’t want my kids disrupted anymore than they need to be. They’re in a crèche they love, they’ve great friends and the staff are great. It has the feeling of a big extended family. They do loads of different activities. I had experience of a different crèche previously and while the care etc there was great, it just lacked the community feel that we now have. To me it’s more than a service that I pay for every month, it’s a massive positive part of my children’s life and if I can do something to maintain that, then I will.

Now at the same time I’m able to work from home while this is going on and will be fully paid, I can see how even 50% is a lot to people with uncertain jobs or who have to pay for other childcare.

starbaby2003 wrote: »

I can’t imagine when this is all over, there will be the same demand for places. Creche’s that are not being in any way flexible are playing Russian roulette in my opinion. My crèche has asked for full fees which is bull****.

Whilst asking for full fees is a bit much I think, there might be a drop in demand but it won’t last long as people try to get back to work, there was already a shortage of places especially in urban areas so whilst there may be a drop in demand I’d think it likely that there would still be good numbers. Obviously the longer it goes the more the economy will struggle but if it’s 6-8 week thing it may return quite quickly.