Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 9:01am

leakyboots wrote: »

Maybe I'm alone in this but I think Arno Botha is a cracking player, started like a freight train for us but a dip in form end of last season. Has been in good form this year

Is Botha the lad who was going around trying to start a fight with his shadow in the rds last year?

Scythica · 23-11-2019 9:05am

If Burns continues on this trajectory do you think he'll start getting involved in Ireland camps at least? Growing with every game! Same could be said for Mccloskey and Marshall.

Cooney should be starting let alone just making the squad but i guess it depends on the style Farrell wants to take.

Shame Coetzee isn't IQ!

Clegg · 23-11-2019 9:24am

McCloskey was terrible against Clermont. Nothing stuck to him. He has a lot of upside, but I'm guessing that his display last night is one of the reasons Schmidt never really picked him.

WRT Marshall, he has the same problem every other 13 has. Ringrose is just better. They'll both make the Ireland training camps, but I can't see either getting into the 23. I

I dunno about Cooney. I feel like last season his goal kicking masked a few poor performances. Just like his try last night made up for him butchering a certain score earlier in the game. He'll be in the camp, but again I'm not sure he makes the 23.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 10:21am

Scythica wrote: »

If Burns continues on this trajectory do you think he'll start getting involved in Ireland camps at least? Growing with every game! Same could be said for Mccloskey and Marshall.

Cooney should be starting let alone just making the squad but i guess it depends on the style Farrell wants to take.

Shame Coetzee isn't IQ!

Burns done well

McCloskey struggles when he can’t barge over his opposite number....

Cooney, sorry I don’t see it, I think Blade etc is ahead of him.

Faugheen · 23-11-2019 11:12am

Scythica wrote: »

If Burns continues on this trajectory do you think he'll start getting involved in Ireland camps at least? Growing with every game! Same could be said for Mccloskey and Marshall.

Cooney should be starting let alone just making the squad but i guess it depends on the style Farrell wants to take.

Shame Coetzee isn't IQ!

I don’t know how you could say Cooney should be starting based on last nights game.

His try was fantastic, but he butchered a score earlier in the game and his control of the game was absolutely terrible.

I really wish people could look at the full picture instead of just one moment. Cooney was lucky that Clermont were so bad and kept giving possession back to Ulster.

bilston · 23-11-2019 11:50am

Faugheen wrote: »

I don’t know how you could say Cooney should be starting based on last nights game.

His try was fantastic, but he butchered a score earlier in the game and his control of the game was absolutely terrible.

I really wish people could look at the full picture instead of just one moment. Cooney was lucky that Clermont were so bad and kept giving possession back to Ulster.

I agree you have to look beyond one moment of brilliance to dissect a players overall performance, particularly a half back, but I thought Cooney's box kicking was top class last night. He did mess up some touch finders, but he probably wouldn't be doing that if he was playing for Ireland. I thought he played well.

McCloskey didn't have a great night, which was unfortunate given Andy Farrell was in attendance.

As far as Ireland are concerned the one player who will have impressed is Marty Moore, he put in a serious shift.

23-11-2019 1:21pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I don’t know how you could say Cooney should be starting based on last nights game.

His try was fantastic, but he butchered a score earlier in the game and his control of the game was absolutely terrible.

What? Can you elaborate on that a bit, what was so terrible about it? Any examples?

sydthebeat · 23-11-2019 2:25pm

Cooney wasnt getting it on a plate at all last night. Clermont were spoiling as much as possible.

I was impressed with him last night.
He was directing his forwards very well through the evening

23-11-2019 2:28pm

Blade going well for Connacht here too. Murray really needs to be not untouchable. There are a few good SHs around the provinces now who should get a chance.

Niallof9 · 23-11-2019 3:24pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I don’t know how you could say Cooney should be starting based on last nights game.

His try was fantastic, but he butchered a score earlier in the game and his control of the game was absolutely terrible.

I really wish people could look at the full picture instead of just one moment. Cooney was lucky that Clermont were so bad and kept giving possession back to Ulster.

Ah will you stop...he’s been excellent in both games so far. You’d swear Murray had a brilliant year:rolleyes:

Some really strange stuff from people who have gotten things wrong all year.

Butchered a try but won the game...ffs he was excellent in bath

Seriously you’d think we just had the best wc ever. People applying completely different standards to the lads who didn’t just **** up a wc. It’s infuriating

Inspector Coptoor · 23-11-2019 3:29pm

Based on current form, Blade and Cooney are a level above anything we have seen from Murray, McGrath and Marmion.

If 6N was next weekend, Cooney and Blade should be in the 23 esp if it was bs Italy and Scotland

Wegians89 · 23-11-2019 3:32pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Based on current form, Blade and Cooney are a level above anything we have seen from Murray, McGrath and Marmion.

If 6N was next weekend, Cooney and Blade should be in the 23 esp if it was bs Italy and Scotland

If you’ve watched marmoin this season you’d know he’s in fine form himself. Just injured

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 3:34pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Based on current form, Blade and Cooney are a level above anything we have seen from Murray, McGrath and Marmion.

If 6N was next weekend, Cooney and Blade should be in the 23 esp if it was bs Italy and Scotland

Not sure what games you are watching......

I would drop Cooney out of squad and bring in Blade

ionadnapokot · 23-11-2019 9:11pm

Double page Q&A with Joe in the ITimes.

I thought it was an excellent piece.
The whole range is in there.

More personal stuff than I thought.

WC bits - never going to throw his players under the bus. Although “we were trying to get Conor Murray back up to speed because I don’t think anybody would doubt his ability. So you are trying to get him back into rhythm.”

His take on the player base and schools

23-11-2019 9:24pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Double page Q&A with Joe in the ITimes.

I thought it was an excellent piece.
The whole range is in there.

More personal stuff than I thought.

WC bits - never going to throw his players under the bus. Although “we were trying to get Conor Murray back up to speed because I don’t think anybody would doubt his ability. So you are trying to get him back into rhythm.”

His take on the player base and schools

From what I saw this evening Murray still isn't in 'rhythm' and it's not just his decision making and accuracy. He seems to have a physical limitation on his passing and his strength in contact. I think he's playing with some kind of impediment and whilst I've no doubt medics aren't putting his health in jeopardy, whatever is ongoing with him has reduced him as a player. I hope it's temporary.

That aside - Joe was always ruthless about selection in his early years was notable for picking less experienced players who were fully fit over A-lister's who were carrying a knock.

He seemed to lose that mindset in his latter years with Ireland and it cost him.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 9:27pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

From what I saw this evening Murray still isn't in 'rhythm' and it's not just his decision making and accuracy. He seems to have a physical limitation on his passing and his strength in contact. I think he's playing with some kind of impediment and whilst I've no doubt medics aren't putting his health in jeopardy, whatever is ongoing with him has reduced him as a player. I hope it's temporary.

That aside - Joe was always ruthless about selection in his early years was notable for picking less experienced players who were fully fit over A-lister's who were carrying a knock.

He seemed to lose that mindset in his latter years with Ireland and it cost him.

Or the alternatives where not good enough so his only option was to try and get Murray up to speed at all costs

shootermacg · 23-11-2019 9:33pm

I'm hoping form will be rewarded. But like any position, it's not enough to be as good as the player who's spot you're trying to take, you need to be measurably better.

I still think Marmion and Toner were hard done by.

sydthebeat · 23-11-2019 9:37pm

shootermacg wrote: »

I'm hoping form will be rewarded. But like any position, it's not enough to be as good as the player who's spot you're trying to take, you need to be measurably better.

I still think Marmion and Toner were hard done by.

giving the incumbent a kick in the ass can be a valuable result too

ionadnapokot · 23-11-2019 9:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

From what I saw this evening Murray still isn't in 'rhythm' and it's not just his decision making and accuracy. He seems to have a physical limitation on his passing and his strength in contact. I think he's playing with some kind of impediment and whilst I've no doubt medics aren't putting his health in jeopardy, whatever is ongoing with him has reduced him as a player. I hope it's temporary.

That aside - Joe was always ruthless about selection in his early years was notable for picking less experienced players who were fully fit over A-lister's who were carrying a knock.

He seemed to lose that mindset in his latter years with Ireland and it cost him.

"rhythm" is definitely coded language playing below standard
u mentioned his pass in the Racing thread -"left side pass". do you mean as he passes from left to right?

tryagain · 23-11-2019 10:19pm

I thought Munster game changed when Murray went off speed of ball changed the defence couldn't set as quick with wicker ball from SH .Maybe Murray's time has come and gone unfortunately .

tryagain · 23-11-2019 10:19pm

Quicker ball

23-11-2019 10:56pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

"rhythm" is definitely coded language playing below standard
u mentioned his pass in the Racing thread -"left side pass". do you mean as he passes from left to right?

Go back and watch the match from tonight. He is much more obviously deliberate passing off his left then I can ever remember. He seems to lack power and his accuracy is lower left to right than right to left.

I also am getting the impression that he is being forced into contact more off his outside because the weakness has been identified by other teams.

If you play with a vulnerability this is going to be targeted and I think whatever is limiting him has ultimately put him under severe pressure on the rugby pitch. It was later in the game so hard to tell, but the reserve 9 today massively outplayed the starting 9.

This is all anecdotal on my part and I'm using guesswork to try and explain an ongoing issue, but he's either regressed as a player or he is limited in some way. I'm of the opinion that it is the latter.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 11:00pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

"rhythm" is definitely coded language playing below standard
u mentioned his pass in the Racing thread -"left side pass". do you mean as he passes from left to right?

BOD mentioned a left side pass in regards to Murray on a podcast recently....expect this thread to be full of people now who suddenly think he has an issue with left side pass.....

Yeah_Right · 23-11-2019 11:10pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Go back and watch the match from tonight. He is much more obviously deliberate passing off his left then I can ever remember. He seems to lack power and his accuracy is lower left to right than right to left.

I also am getting the impression that he is being forced into contact more off his outside because the weakness has been identified by other teams.

If you play with a vulnerability this is going to be targeted and I think whatever is limiting him has ultimately put him under severe pressure on the rugby pitch. It was later in the game so hard to tell, but the reserve 9 today massively outplayed the starting 9.

This is all anecdotal on my part and I'm using guesswork to try and explain an ongoing issue, but he's either regressed as a player or he is limited in some way. I'm of the opinion that it is the latter.

Mathewson was such an improvement when he came on tonight. I was half joking the other day when I said Munster should send Murray to the AIL or let him go to France and sign Mathewson to permanent contract. After tonight's game, I'm starting to think they really should do it.

ionadnapokot · 23-11-2019 11:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Go back and watch the match from tonight. He is much more obviously deliberate passing off his left then I can ever remember. He seems to lack power and his accuracy is lower left to right than right to left.

I also am getting the impression that he is being forced into contact more off his outside because the weakness has been identified by other teams.

If you play with a vulnerability this is going to be targeted and I think whatever is limiting him has ultimately put him under severe pressure on the rugby pitch. It was later in the game so hard to tell, but the reserve 9 today massively outplayed the starting 9.

This is all anecdotal on my part and I'm using guesswork to try and explain an ongoing issue, but he's either regressed as a player or he is limited in some way. I'm of the opinion that it is the latter.

definitely
&
definitely

has been limited off his left hand since Wales 2017
its terrible & the timing was brutal. he was majestic in the previous games v France in Dublin. The best SH in the World by a distance at the time.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 11:16pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Mathewson was such an improvement when he came on tonight. I was half joking the other day when I said Munster should send Murray to the AIL or let him go to France and sign Mathewson to permanent contract. After tonight's game, I'm starting to think they really should do it.

Mathewson for all the love in with Munster, didn't have a club prior to Munster move. Has never had an approach while at Munster and is leaving without any club interested in him.....that alone should give you a hint

Also, someone coming on with 10 mins left, a tired defense and they have 10 mins to burn off all energy, no need to conserve....hardly a good reference point is it?
.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 11:18pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

definitely
&
definitely

has been limited off his left hand since Wales 2017
its terrible & the timing was brutal. he was majestic in the previous games v France in Dublin. The best SH in the World by a distance at the time.

I don't remember this been picked out specifically before on this thread or any thread?

I think BOD has a lot to answer for

mfceiling · 23-11-2019 11:33pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Or the alternatives where not good enough so his only option was to try and get Murray up to speed at all costs

Yeah but how many games do you give him before you say "you know what, I'm going to give the next lad a chance".
You mightn't think the alternatives aren't good enough but if they don't get a chance then how do you know? And the last 8 minutes of a game doesn't count.

The Lost Sheep · 23-11-2019 11:39pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Mathewson was such an improvement when he came on tonight. I was half joking the other day when I said Munster should send Murray to the AIL or let him go to France and sign Mathewson to permanent contract. After tonight's game, I'm starting to think they really should do it.

Murray shouldn't be let go but other options need be given more game time be it Casey or whomever else.
Murray just sauntered around too many games for Munster doesnt need to much. Needs kick up the .... sending him back to ail with Garryowen wouldnt change that

Shefwedfan · 24-11-2019 12:26am

mfceiling wrote: »

Yeah but how many games do you give him before you say "you know what, I'm going to give the next lad a chance".
You mightn't think the alternatives aren't good enough but if they don't get a chance then how do you know? And the last 8 minutes of a game doesn't count.

I can't remember now but did Murray play all the warm up's?

stl.ire · 24-11-2019 3:43am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't remember this been picked out specifically before on this thread or any thread?

I think BOD has a lot to answer for

Murray’s left hand pass has always been seen as a weakness in his game (sometimes at his best it’s the only one). It’s something that kiwi’s would point out when they touted Aaron Smith over him.

Here’s a NZ article from 2017:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/93553423/mark-reason-the-lions-have-called-in-the-aerial-attack
“The biggest bother for the Lions was Murray's passing off his left hand. On three separate occasions in the first half he gave the ball back to the Crusaders with awful passes.”

And a Murray Kinsella one from this year:
https://www.the42.ie/analysis-conor-murray-ireland-six-nations-4513683-Feb2019/
“The wastage on his left arm is clearly visible but the mechanics of his play and willingness to enter contact don’t appear to have been affected by this”

He’s still our greatest ever 9 and at his best clearly above all the others. I’ve had to defend his left hand passing long enough to know that some see it as a huge issue!

OldRio · 24-11-2019 10:33am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't remember this been picked out specifically before on this thread or any thread?

I think BOD has a lot to answer for

It was. I remember it being mentioned. Oops sorry see post above...

Shefwedfan · 24-11-2019 10:39am

stl.ire wrote: »

Murray’s left hand pass has always been seen as a weakness in his game (sometimes at his best it’s the only one). It’s something that kiwi’s would point out when they touted Aaron Smith over him.

Here’s a NZ article from 2017:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/93553423/mark-reason-the-lions-have-called-in-the-aerial-attack
“The biggest bother for the Lions was Murray's passing off his left hand. On three separate occasions in the first half he gave the ball back to the Crusaders with awful passes.”

And a Murray Kinsella one from this year:
https://www.the42.ie/analysis-conor-murray-ireland-six-nations-4513683-Feb2019/
“The wastage on his left arm is clearly visible but the mechanics of his play and willingness to enter contact don’t appear to have been affected by this”

He’s still our greatest ever 9 and at his best clearly above all the others. I’ve had to defend his left hand passing long enough to know that some see it as a huge issue!

Two articles.....when was last time it was mentioned here and now we have loads of “experts” discussing it....

Come on, everyone listens to the same podcast, I laughed when BOD mentioned it as I knew what was coming, it didn’t take long

When exactly have you defended it? I have used this forum a long time and I don’t remember any real specific discussion(till now) about his left passing, on the lions tours or the WC or all the years he has played

Buer · 24-11-2019 11:07am

Scythica wrote: »

If Burns continues on this trajectory do you think he'll start getting involved in Ireland camps at least? Growing with every game! Same could be said for Mccloskey and Marshall.

Burns should be in the Irish 23 if we're going on form this season. He won't be but he deserves to be in the squad at the least.

One issue he has is that he's an English lad having come over to play in a highly contentious and competitive position in Irish rugby. He's not going to have many cheerleaders in either the terraces or the media putting pressure on for his inclusion.

Clegg · 24-11-2019 12:04pm

VDF is the best player in the country right now. I really think we've yet to see the best of him in and Ireland shirt. He usually plays well for Ireland, but more in a defensive capacity. His carrying game for Leinster has been excellent. If we can get him I to wider channels for Ireland he'd do so much damage.

errlloyd · 24-11-2019 12:30pm

Buer wrote: »

Burns should be in the Irish 23 if we're going on form this season. He won't be but he deserves to be in the squad at the least.

One issue he has is that he's an English lad having come over to play in a highly contentious and competitive position in Irish rugby. He's not going to have many cheerleaders in either the terraces or the media putting pressure on for his inclusion.

I don't think it ever held Mike McCarthy back persay. But I do agree there'd be a chorus if he was Irish.

Felix Jones is God. · 24-11-2019 12:36pm

Buer wrote: »

Burns should be in the Irish 23 if we're going on form this season. He won't be but he deserves to be in the squad at the least.

One issue he has is that he's an English lad having come over to play in a highly contentious and competitive position in Irish rugby. He's not going to have many cheerleaders in either the terraces or the media putting pressure on for his inclusion.

Billy Burns? He's not IQ is he?

Shefwedfan · 24-11-2019 12:37pm

Buer wrote: »

Burns should be in the Irish 23 if we're going on form this season. He won't be but he deserves to be in the squad at the least.

One issue he has is that he's an English lad having come over to play in a highly contentious and competitive position in Irish rugby. He's not going to have many cheerleaders in either the terraces or the media putting pressure on for his inclusion.

I haven’t seen anyone mention it till you did

Have you an issue with him? :-)

Shefwedfan · 24-11-2019 12:38pm

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Billy Burns? He's not IQ is he?

He is, Irish family, grandparents etc

Talked about coming to Ireland when young

irishbucsfan · 24-11-2019 12:39pm

Felix Jones is God. wrote: »

Billy Burns? He's not IQ is he?

He is

ionadnapokot · 24-11-2019 12:39pm

stl.ire wrote: »

Murray’s left hand pass has always been seen as a weakness in his game (sometimes at his best it’s the only one). It’s something that kiwi’s would point out when they touted Aaron Smith over him.

Here’s a NZ article from 2017:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/93553423/mark-reason-the-lions-have-called-in-the-aerial-attack
“The biggest bother for the Lions was Murray's passing off his left hand. On three separate occasions in the first half he gave the ball back to the Crusaders with awful passes.”

And a Murray Kinsella one from this year:
https://www.the42.ie/analysis-conor-murray-ireland-six-nations-4513683-Feb2019/
“The wastage on his left arm is clearly visible but the mechanics of his play and willingness to enter contact don’t appear to have been affected by this”

He’s still our greatest ever 9 and at his best clearly above all the others. I’ve had to defend his left hand passing long enough to know that some see it as a huge issue!

Excellent points
I remember watching the 1st Test at Christchurch and it was obvious his left hand pass was still banjaxed from Cardiff.

He didn’t have a great pass starting out - that step he used to make - but he made a marked improvement during lions tour of Australia.
He even had that mike Phillips power pass going off his left hand by the end of that tour.

Think it’s gone past the point of waiting now. Farrell has to make the big decision.

Marmion the obvious replacement but has Blade pushed him to the bench now at Connacht?

Felix Jones is God. · 24-11-2019 12:40pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He is

Yeah, was thinking on residency grounds... but I can't remember him saying at any point he wants to play for Ireland?

Edit...just saw an article from around the time he was signing for Ulster saying he'd def consider it... haven't seen anything since then though

ionadnapokot · 24-11-2019 12:43pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't think it ever held Mike McCarthy back persay. But I do agree there'd be a chorus if he was Irish.

says NO
Edit
Deleted name

No one cares if he’s born English.
I don’t think he’s good enough to play for Ireland.

I’d even pick Frawley ahead of Burns

bilston · 24-11-2019 12:54pm

Buer wrote: »

Burns should be in the Irish 23 if we're going on form this season. He won't be but he deserves to be in the squad at the least.

One issue he has is that he's an English lad having come over to play in a highly contentious and competitive position in Irish rugby. He's not going to have many cheerleaders in either the terraces or the media putting pressure on for his inclusion.

It's an excellent point Buer. He is still trying to win over some Ulster fans for some reason.

OldRio · 24-11-2019 1:03pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Two articles.....when was last time it was mentioned here and now we have loads of “experts” discussing it....

Come on, everyone listens to the same podcast, I laughed when BOD mentioned it as I knew what was coming, it didn’t take long

When exactly have you defended it? I have used this forum a long time and I don’t remember any real specific discussion(till now) about his left passing, on the lions tours or the WC or all the years he has played

Firstly I do remember it being discussed on this forum. Secondly I have no knowledge of the BOD podcast you are talking about.

stl.ire · 24-11-2019 1:09pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Two articles.....when was last time it was mentioned here and now we have loads of “experts” discussing it....

Come on, everyone listens to the same podcast, I laughed when BOD mentioned it as I knew what was coming, it didn’t take long

When exactly have you defended it? I have used this forum a long time and I don’t remember any real specific discussion(till now) about his left passing, on the lions tours or the WC or all the years he has played

I literally googled “Conor Murray left pass” and chose two of the first that came up - it’s not a secret or a conspiracy, many more articles/podcasts have mentioned it. He’s worked on it and overcome it in the past obviously.

And as for me defending him - I meant in real life! Used to live in NZ during his peak.

Murray is our greatest ever 9 but we’re beginning a new World Cup “cycle” and everything is up for grabs now.

bilston · 24-11-2019 1:13pm

stl.ire wrote: »

I literally googled “Conor Murray left pass” and chose two of the first that came up - it’s not a secret or a conspiracy, many more articles/podcasts have mentioned it. He’s worked on it and overcome it in the past obviously.

And as for me defending him - I meant in real life! Used to live in NZ during his peak.

Murray is our greatest ever 9 but we’re beginning a new World Cup “cycle” and everything is up for grabs now.

Starting a new WC cycle doesn't mean a lot. We are two months out from the 6Ns...rightly or wrongly that's how the IRFU and Andy Farrell are probably looking at it.

ionadnapokot · 24-11-2019 1:22pm

bilston wrote: »

It's an excellent point Buer. He is still trying to win over some Ulster fans for some reason.

Not ben a prick here but...,Is it really an excellent point?

Season only really got going at the start of Nov.
10 more weeks until the start of the 6N.
Burns has only played 4 maybe 5 matches this season?
I don’t know why anybody would or should be considering Billy Burns for a 6N squad this early never mind in the 23.

Come the 6N he will be behind
Sexton
Carbery
Byrne
Carty

Tyler B is probably even ahead of him!

I must say I find the reasoning that “because he’s English born” utter bollocks.
He’s a good provincial player just like Cooney it doesn’t mean he HAS to be considered for Ireland

stl.ire · 24-11-2019 1:28pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

says NO
Edit
Deleted name

No one cares if he’s born English.
I don’t think he’s good enough to play for Ireland.

I’d even pick Frawley ahead of Burns

Don’t be silly. If he ever gets a start the trolls will be out. “English reject gets picked by English coach” writes itself.

Burns isn’t Sexton but comparing him to Frawley is nonsensical.

Wegians89 · 24-11-2019 1:31pm

Think Burns is better than Ross Byrne and probably carty on this seasons form so far but if you’re going on this seasons form Conor Fitzgerald is probably up there too. Don’t expect any new 10s in the 6 nation squad.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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