Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Clegg

I like the idea of a bruiser at 12 and stepper at 13. Buy Chris Farrell isn't really an inside centre. I know he's played there a bit for Ireland, but he's mostly an outside centre.

Henshaw didn't have his best showing in the tournament, but he was only back from injury. I'd like to see him get another opportunity at 12. But hopefully in an attacking system that allows him, or any player, greater freedom.

blinding

We definitely need to attack with a bit of flair ....if only to raise the spirits .

Wegians89

Scythica wrote: »

If we're looking to play more expansively, then surely McCloskey needs to come into the equation in the centres - probably the best offloading centre we have?

Addison could also make a case for 13 (though prefer him at 15) if he could get a run of injury free games...

If you’re looking for an offload, Tom Farrell is the man. Been top of those charts for a couple of years. Would like to see him get back into the Connacht team and then potentially be Ringroses understudy at 13

Clegg

We need to get more from our back three. There were times this year when I felt our only strategy was to get the ball to Stockdale asap.The problem there was we weren't creating space for him. He'd get the ball and be facing a set defensive line. Couple that with his dip in form at the world cup and it made for a very disappointing tournament for him.

The main problem, however, is the way we use our wings. We don't see enough of Stockdale or Earls coming off the wing other than for set plays. Ringrose is one of our most elusive runners. Get the wings to run a trailing line off him and see what happens. James Lowe is particularly good at coming into midfield on a lone and breaking the defence. I know the player eligibility rules aren't a popular topic, but he's getting capped if he wants it. May as well find a way that gets the best out of the players at our disposal.

Utah_Saint

Wegians89 wrote: »

If you’re looking for an offload, Tom Farrell is the man. Been top of those charts for a couple of years. Would like to see him get back into the Connacht team and then potentially be Ringroses understudy at 13

I think i posted something similar on Boards a few months back with the Stats for the centres in Ireland. I didn't fight Stu's case much but its def worth considering. I probably fell into 'He doesn't know the systems' camp

https://twitter.com/enhance_p/status/1134432084519510016?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1135523620858601473&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportsjoe.ie%2Frugby%2Fstuart-mccloskey-included-ireland-squad-202232

Based on Stats alone you would say Ringrose and Stu are a combo to look at

blinding

Stockdale is an attacking winger . We certainly didn’t give him much opportunity to show his attacking talents .

Utah_Saint

blinding wrote: »

Stockdale is an attacking winger . We certainly didn’t give him much opportunity to show his attacking talents .

Stockdale was poor during the WC but as mentioned by other poster; when he eventually got the ball the defences were set and he was usual facing two defenders.

is_that_so

blinding wrote: »

Stockdale is an attacking winger . We certainly didn’t give him much opportunity to show his attacking talents .

Yeah but he still needs better defence skills, as part of the back 3. He's very good and powerful in a straight line but can't jink or vary it like Ringrose and Larmour.

blinding

You’d primarily put Stockade in your team for attack . For this you have to give him opportunities to attack .

Obviously he needs to improve his defence but if you want a winger that is a better defender maybe Stockade is not the winger for you particularly in the short term .

Utah_Saint

blinding wrote: »

You’d primarily put Stockade in your team for attack . For this you have to give him opportunities to attack .

Obviously he needs to improve his defence but if you want a winger that is a better defender maybe Stockade is not the winger for you particularly in the short term .

This.

I think this is a good point you raise. Obviously Defence is critical but do you think England, SA or New Zealand picked their wingers for Defence? Jonny May is like a turnstile but who cares when he can run like he does. Maybe its years of indoctrination (well before Joes time) that the first thing we look for in a winger is if he can hit a ruck...

blinding

Utah_Saint wrote: »

This.

I think this is a good point you raise. Obviously Defence is critical but do you think England, SA or New Zealand picked their wingers for Defence? Jonny May is like a turnstile but who cares when he can run like he does. Maybe its years of indoctrination (well before Joes time) that the first thing we look for in a winger is if he can hit a ruck...

England even played May carrying an injury in a world cup semi-Final.

If fully fit he would have gone for the corner in that chance he had . He had to cut back inside because he was not fully fit .

Clegg

Our back three also lacks pure speed. Earls, Larmour, Stockdale and Conway are all varying levels of quick, but they're not like the England back three. May gets the most attention, but Watson is lightning fast as well and so is Daly.

If you lack pure speed then you have to either get your back three in more advantageous positions by creating overlaps or defensive mismatches, or you get them involved closer infield. Cutting lines off the centre and looking for the offload etc. Just because we lack speed doesn't mean we're necessarily at a disadvantage. Larmour is an excellent one on one attacker and Stockdale a powerful finisher. Creating even a but of extra space for them would see us do so much damage.

There really is no substitute for pure speed though. Since the Pro 14 started I've seen Leinsters younger players rip apart defences with their pace. Hugo Keenan and Jimmy O'Brien have stood up defenders glided around them. They're causing havoc. This is an example from a much lower level of competition but at test level it's the same thing. You may not break the line fully, but you'll stress the defence much more.

Henry Ford III

Whatever about the merits of fringe or upcoming players, Andy Farrell's big problem is time - or the lack of it.

He won't be able to tactically reinvent Ireland as a team before the 6N - the RWC squad are on hols probably and the provinces will want their star players back a.s.a.p. so squad sessions will be limited also.

I fear more pain is on the cards internationally at least unfortunately.

kingofthekong

Why are people even talking about our back 3?....

It was our pack, defensive and attacking collisions being lost , lack of ability to slow opposition ball,lack of ability to turn over possesion and slow linespeed in defense that cost us at this world cup.

The pack is the biggest concern bar Furlong and Ryan...

New Zealand were able to pick and go over the gainline on 5 or 6 consecutive drives towards our line for their first try andf won most collisions for the majority of the game

We werent able to slow down their ruck because our pack wasnt competing well enough at the break down

This allowed them fast ball and then they beat us at the point of contact and won the gainline

Our backrow lacks quality ball carriers and ruck disruptors - Underhill, Curry and Vunipola are a perfectly balanced backrow

Underhill and Curry can both win turnovers, ball carry very well and usually always produce dominant collision winning tackles in defence

Vunipola provides gainline, offloading ability that none of our players do

Shefwedfan

This is getting a little over the top isn't it on the criticism of the players. First we are saying none of them can pass and now we are saying none of them can run??

These majority of these players are playing in semi finals and finals of HC's. Winning as well. Playing against the best in Europe and probably the World on regular occasions and winning.

I get we had a poor WC but we have a good base to build on. Lets not lose the plot yet.

First we where comparing ourselves to NZ, now it is ENgland. If England lose next week will we compare ourselves to SA?

We need to find a game plan that suits Ireland. Joe found one and we where very successful but then everything figured it out. We just need to find another. Stop looking at XYZ and saying we are not as good as them. IN 2018 they all looked at Ireland and instead of just saying we are not as good they found a way to negate our positives. Lets do the same to them

Daly is good.....you see him play Leinster last year in the HC game in RDS? He was awful, absolutely awful.

Utah_Saint

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Whatever about the merits of fringe or upcoming players, Andy Farrell's big problem is time - or the lack of it.

He won't be able to tactically reinvent Ireland as a team before the 6N - the RWC squad are on hols probably and the provinces will want their star players back a.s.a.p. so squad sessions will be limited also.

I fear more pain is on the cards internationally at least unfortunately.

I would take a poor 6N if I could see clear signs of change. Some others may not feel the same but if we don't take our medicine now when should we?

irishbucsfan

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Whatever about the merits of fringe or upcoming players, Andy Farrell's big problem is time - or the lack of it.

He won't be able to tactically reinvent Ireland as a team before the 6N - the RWC squad are on hols probably and the provinces will want their star players back a.s.a.p. so squad sessions will be limited also.

I fear more pain is on the cards internationally at least unfortunately.

Squad sessions won't be limited. What the provinces want is completely secondary to what Farrell and his new team want

Shefwedfan

Scythica wrote: »

If we're looking to play more expansively, then surely McCloskey needs to come into the equation in the centres - probably the best offloading centre we have?

Addison could also make a case for 13 (though prefer him at 15) if he could get a run of injury free games...

Addison seems to be getting the run of luck Conway did for years, anytime he gets a chance to play for Ireland he picks up something

Henry Ford III

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Squad sessions won't be limited. What the provinces want is completely secondary to what Farrell and his new team want

Can't agree.

The internationals (if fit) will be available for European action.

irishbucsfan

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Can't agree.

The internationals (if fit) will be available for European action.

They're always available for European action.

It's the interpros they pull players from.

Henry Ford III

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They're always available for European action.

It's the interpros they pull players from.

I know. That's why I posted what I did.

Your assertion "Squad sessions won't be limited. What the provinces want is completely secondary to what Farrell and his new team want" doesn't wash for precisely the same reason.

If Farrell & Co. want a squad session on a European Rugby weekend they can't. QED.

Faugheen

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I would take a poor 6N if I could see clear signs of change. Some others may not feel the same but if we don't take our medicine now when should we?

The IRFU won’t though. The six nations is their moneymaker.

That in itself is a problem. The IRFU won’t accept a mediocre six nations campaign which is partly why I believe Joe went as conservative as he did. I’d say there is immense pressure in that environment and I can’t see them giving a Farrell any more leeway.

Clegg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is getting a little over the top isn't it on the criticism of the players. First we are saying none of them can pass and now we are saying none of them can run??

These majority of these players are playing in semi finals and finals of HC's. Winning as well. Playing against the best in Europe and probably the World on regular occasions and winning.

I get we had a poor WC but we have a good base to build on. Lets not lose the plot yet.

First we where comparing ourselves to NZ, now it is ENgland. If England lose next week will we compare ourselves to SA?

We need to find a game plan that suits Ireland. Joe found one and we where very successful but then everything figured it out. We just need to find another. Stop looking at XYZ and saying we are not as good as them. IN 2018 they all looked at Ireland and instead of just saying we are not as good they found a way to negate our positives. Lets do the same to them

Daly is good.....you see him play Leinster last year in the HC game in RDS? He was awful, absolutely awful.

Who said that none of our outside backs can't run? The entire discussion was about the strengths and weaknesses of our backs. They're not lightning fast so need to be used in different ways. The entire point of comparing them to England's back three was to show that while we can't use our lads in the way they do, we have other strengths that can be used. The entire point of this discussion is about finding a way that best suits.

Also, European Cup rugby is irrelevant to this discussion. Daly was poor against Leinster last season, but us having an excellent world cup. That's all that matters. Just like how so many Irish players shot the lights out for their provinces, but underperformed at the highest level.

irishbucsfan

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I know. That's why I posted what I did.

Your assertion "Squad sessions won't be limited. What the provinces want is completely secondary to what Farrell and his new team want" doesn't wash for precisely the same reason.

If Farrell & Co. want a squad session on a European Rugby weekend they can't. QED.

OK fair enough.

If by "Squad sessions will be limited" you meant "squad sessions will be limited from expanding to far, far more than they have ever been before" then you are right.

I thought you meant they would be limited in comparison to literally anything remotely realistic or anything they've ever done before. I wouldn't use "limited" to describe continuing to do exactly the same thing.

Dubinusa

You can't control the the collision if you receive the ball standing still! How to you get forward momentum when the defender is coming at speed? It's basic isn't it!
Our back row was not cohesive. It was underpowered and really outmuscled.

We saw the poor standards all year. We were mauled by Wales and England in the 6nations. Schmidt continued using static receivers regardless.

That along with the selection of Murray, who was awful all year was the writing on the wall.

Farrell will have his hands full. He should assert his style of play immediately. But, I think he's going to change up slowly.

I think out back row for the Scotland match will be
Ruddock
Nordi
Standers
VDF on the bench.

Shefwedfan

Clegg wrote: »

Who said that none of our outside backs can't run? The entire discussion was about the strengths and weaknesses of our backs. They're not lightning fast so need to be used in different ways. The entire point of comparing them to England's back three was to show that while we can't use our lads in the way they do, we have other strengths that can be used. The entire point of this discussion is about finding a way that best suits.

Also, European Cup rugby is irrelevant to this discussion. Daly was poor against Leinster last season, but us having an excellent world cup. That's all that matters. Just like how so many Irish players shot the lights out for their provinces, but underperformed at the highest level.

I don't know what is "lighting fast"?



Larmour I think is one of the fastest but Earls burned him in the Japan match for that tackle.....


Do we know if our winger are slower than other players over 100m? I can't remember the exact player but I know recently on one of the podcast it mentioned xy was fast over 100m and he was a forward.



If we look over the next 2-4 years then you will have Earls, Conway, Larmour, Lowe, Addison etc all in the squad or around the squad. They are fast but are they lighting fast? no idea. I think with the game Ireland played some of these played bulked up, so if we change style maybe they will slim down a bit....who is to know.



We have had what people would describe as "lighting fast" players but really not fit for 15's and would have been better for 7s



I can't remember the name of the new Munster winger who moved from 7's? is he fast? scored 2 tries in first game

Paul Smeenus

Aaron Sexton obviously has blistering pace, and should have broken through in that timeframe. Before then, Baloucoune is fast.

Squidgy Black

Barry Daly is supposed to be a speed merchant too.

Faugheen

Dubinusa wrote: »

You can't control the the collision if you receive the ball standing still! How to you get forward momentum when the defender is coming at speed? It's basic isn't it!
Our back row was not cohesive. It was underpowered and really outmuscled.

We saw the poor standards all year. We were mauled by Wales and England in the 6nations. Schmidt continued using static receivers regardless.

That along with the selection of Murray, who was awful all year was the writing on the wall.

Farrell will have his hands full. He should assert his style of play immediately. But, I think he's going to change up slowly.

I think out back row for the Scotland match will be
Ruddock
Nordi
Standers
VDF on the bench.

Again, don’t understand why VDF of anyone should be dropped. 7 isn’t the problem here.

Shefwedfan

Faugheen wrote: »

Again, don’t understand why VDF of anyone should be dropped. 7 isn’t the problem here.

We need balance in the back row. Whatever the combination is

Dropping a 7 for playing like a 7 wouldn't seem to be the answer to me but I am not a coach