MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 2:51pm

Enzokk wrote: »

You have to look at examples of how Corbyn has been leading the party with the accusations of antisemitism thrown at him and the party. As I said before he is either the unluckiest person in that he finds himself around these issues when he himself isn't antisemitic.

There is this example,

Corbyn in antisemitism row after backing artist behind 'offensive' mural

So in this case he didn't look at the mural but he supported the right of free speech, unlucky.

Then we have this,

So he joined a Facebook group that shared antisemitic posts, but he didn't see it because if he had he would have challenged it. Such a shame that he always just seems to be a little late to challenge that antisemitism.

Then we have this case,

Jeremy Corbyn: MPs 'not under threat' at Labour party conference

You know what was missing here in his quotes? He never said that what is happening is unacceptable and he is sorry that one of his MPs should need police protection at her own parties conference. You will also note that he is saying there is no threat to anybody in the conference, but yet just outside in Liverpool she needs protection? Are Liverpudlians known to be antisemitic and are Jewish people in danger in Liverpool? She is in the city that she represents and yet she needs protection? Why at the conference and not at any other time? Look at the Labour press office reply,

And this is why there are the accusations that they are not taking it seriously. See how they gloss over the fact that she received abuse from Labour supporters because of her opposition to Corbyn and that is why she needed the protection at the Labour conference.

Here are some more examples that doesn't make Labour look great.

Union boss: Labour MPs complaining of antisemitism are smearing Corbyn

Some of the article makes for grim reading for Labour,

And then finally this story from a week or so ago,

Labour investigates Liverpool members over 'bullying' of Luciana Berger

I will take any claims that this issue is being overblown with a pinch of salt when you actually see the amount of articles from supposedly friendly media to the Labour party.

The guardian wants rid of Corbyn and wants a blairite in. The story is being pushed relentlessly by those that hate Corbyn and all he stands for on the right, and the centre left.

The real issue is that the UK establishment fear a Corbyn government even more than Brexit.

I don't particularly like Corbyn just to note, but all this anti semitism stuff appears after the centre left lost the party and will just vanish again the day a centrist gets back in the leadership. Which would be strange, considering it's seemingly an institutional problem for Labour.

listermint · 18-02-2019 2:53pm

Lets park the AS stuff to the side for a second.

Corbyn and his merry band of ultra left have been the single worst opposition party in british living history.

2+ years of Tories making mistake after mistake, month on month, week on week and sometimes the same day. And corbyn and his group were utterly useless.

At the Labour Party conference the got the motions to push for second referendum but he left it off speech after speech and correspondence on purpose.

The Majority of Labour voters are remainers according to all polls conducted.

So in short this had to happen, and its not this blairite crap that gets bandied around. Its basically something the Labour voters are asking for. Corbyn is useless his leading Labour leaders are useless and they are actively subverting their own parties democratic will.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2019 2:55pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The guardian wants rid of Corbyn and wants a blairite in. The story is being pushed relentlessly by those that hate Corbyn and all he stands for on the right, and the centre left.

The real issue is that the UK establishment fear a Corbyn government even more than Brexit.

I don't particularly like Corbyn just to note, but all this anti semitism stuff appears after the centre left lost the party and will just vanish again the day a centrist gets back in the leadership. Which would be strange, considering it's seemingly an institutional problem for Labour.

Corbyn has made Labour unelectable as clearly demonstrated by recent polls on voting intentions and leader approval ratings.

AlphabetCards · 18-02-2019 2:55pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The guardian wants rid of Corbyn and wants a blairite in. The story is being pushed relentlessly by those that hate Corbyn and all he stands for on the right, and the centre left.

The real issue is that the UK establishment fear a Corbyn government even more than Brexit.

I don't particularly like Corbyn just to note, but all this anti semitism stuff appears after the centre left lost the party and will just vanish again the day a centrist gets back in the leadership. Which would be strange, considering it's seemingly an institutional problem for Labour.

Bang on the money. You have just missed out that the establishment also hate Brexit, and JC is something of a closet brexiteer: they want him gone for not one but two reasons.

Dyr · 18-02-2019 2:56pm

Hurrache wrote: »

You asked for evidence this type of stuff happens, after the video was posted.

Accusations are not usually considered evidence, well except for in Witch Hunts

Any luck with those recordings?

jm08 · 18-02-2019 2:58pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

It quite depends on how you define 'years'. Because the first I became aware of it was during the referendum campaign and the Chakrabati enquiry. That's 'years' ago, but maybe not as many as you seem to be suggesting.

YouGov did a survey on anti-semitism and it showed that Labour Party supporters were the least anti-semitic of all the parties.

Channel 4 did some investigation (including polling Jewish people on their perception of who was anti-semitic). Their perception was that Labour was, but C4 says that Jewish people voted 64% Conservative and 27% labour in the last gen. election.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties

One of the posts on that twitter feed you posted says that the resentment towards Luciana Berger was because as a friend of Euan Blair, she was parachuted into a safe labour seat by Tony Blair. Many also have questions about her voting record in the HoC.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 3:00pm

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

My own two cents on the Anti Semite stuff, I don't doubt that it exists at some level within Labour. Corbyn has been sketchy on some things while also there is evidence to the contrary where he can use as evidence that he is not AS. Overall I think hes been poor on it.

What I cannot get past is that the reason these are all leaving is because of this. It just seems the AS stick is used because they do not like Corbyn and his inner circle. Personally I think if him and JMcD left and were replaced with Blairites then you would hear very little of the AS problem again.

It's not the only reason. The brexit stance of the Labour party has been referenced as well. The fact that the process that was supposed to happen where a second referendum would be supported if a GE was not possible has been forgotten or long-fingered into oblivion. There are more, but since their website is still down, I can't link them.

Enzokk · 18-02-2019 3:04pm

Also, lets not forget that apparently Berger is a problem because she opposes the Labour leader's position and that is why she has disciplinary procedures against her. But the likes of Kate Hoey who goes against her party many times and even against her own constituents wishes (her constituency is in London which voted overwhelmingly for Remain, yet she votes and campaigns still for a hard Brexit).

Anyone remember this debacle?

Meet the Pro-Brexit Labour Rebels Who Saved May and Could Again

Pro-Brexit Labour lawmakers who ignored instructions and voted with the government on Tuesday night say party managers exerted no pressure on them to switch sides. Their votes helped block an amendment put forward by pro-EU rebels in May’s Conservative Party that could have meant Britain staying in a customs union with the European Union after leaving the bloc.

It is Labour policy for a customs union with the EU and also for a new General Election and these MPs defied the whip and voted with the Tories that denied the customs union in case of no deal and possibly a new election. Did anyone see any disciplinary action against them?

Dyr · 18-02-2019 3:05pm

listermint wrote: »

Lets park the AS stuff to the side for a second.

Corbyn and his merry band of ultra left have been the single worst opposition party in british living history.

I'm not sure Chukka Umma or any of the Blairite faction would have won many more seats in the last election. What you're seeing with Corbyn is not that different to what the ERG and UKIP have done on the right side of the house.

Corbyn is pretty useless as Leader, in much the same way Kinnock was but he paved the way for Blair, I'd assume that Corbyns supporters are hoping he's on a similar arc, the messy business of dragging the party left so a new saviour can follow him.

The thing is that Britain wasn't going over a Cliff edge while Kinnock was in charge.

Berserker · 18-02-2019 3:06pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The labour anti semitism was a load of nonsense it was part of a strategy by the labour blairites to lever under Corbyn to get him out.

There is and was substance behind the claims of anti-Semitism and the failure of the party and it's supporters to address these issues, coupled with Corbyn's appalling leadership has resulted in the breakup of the party.

MrMusician18 · 18-02-2019 3:07pm

listermint wrote: »

Lets park the AS stuff to the side for a second.

Corbyn and his merry band of ultra left have been the single worst opposition party in british living history.

2+ years of Tories making mistake after mistake, month on month, week on week and sometimes the same day. And corbyn and his group were utterly useless.

At the Labour Party conference the got the motions to push for second referendum but he left it off speech after speech and correspondence on purpose.

The Majority of Labour voters are remainers according to all polls conducted.

So in short this had to happen, and its not this blairite crap that gets bandied around. Its basically something the Labour voters are asking for. Corbyn is useless his leading Labour leaders are useless and they are actively subverting their own parties democratic will.

Corbyn is useless and needs to go imo, because he's such an ineffective leader of the opposition. No one is challenging him because they know he'll win the vote of the members, even if they are remainers. That's why they're trying to force him to resign.

The AS stuff is just a lever the centerists are using to pry him from the leadership since nothing else seems to be sticking. That's because the party themselves are split on Brexit and it's doubtful any leader would be able to unite Labour when so many MPs come from leave constituencies.

Enzokk · 18-02-2019 3:17pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The guardian wants rid of Corbyn and wants a blairite in. The story is being pushed relentlessly by those that hate Corbyn and all he stands for on the right, and the centre left.

The real issue is that the UK establishment fear a Corbyn government even more than Brexit.

I don't particularly like Corbyn just to note, but all this anti semitism stuff appears after the centre left lost the party and will just vanish again the day a centrist gets back in the leadership. Which would be strange, considering it's seemingly an institutional problem for Labour.

I don't think it will disappear though. It is like Pandora's box that has been opened and allowed to flourish. The same with xenophobia and Brexit and Islamophobia in the Tories.

jm08 wrote: »

One of the posts on that twitter feed you posted says that the resentment towards Luciana Berger was because as a friend of Euan Blair, she was parachuted into a safe labour seat by Tony Blair. Many also have questions about her voting record in the HoC.

I know you are referencing a response on Twitter, but what votes is so offensive of hers in the HoC? It would be great if there is a list of them to see if she is actively pursuing a policy that is not shared by the Labour party and her votes are reflecting this. If not, well then all you are left with is that she is liked by Blair and she is Jewish and neither of those are reasons for the abuse she has suffered.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Corbyn is useless and needs to go imo, because he's such an ineffective leader of the opposition. No one is challenging him because they know he'll win the vote of the members, even if they are remainers. That's why they're trying to force him to resign.

The AS stuff is just a lever the centerists are using to pry him from the leadership since nothing else seems to be sticking. That's because the party themselves are split on Brexit and it's doubtful any leader would be able to unite Labour when so many MPs come from leave constituencies.

But the antisemitic charges are either false or there is a problem. You seem to be saying that there is an ulterior motive to them (to get rid of Corbyn) and it seems like you are saying that they are not serious or is made up. That is ignoring what is a serious issue when you look at the evidence of what his views are, or at the very least what his responses to these allegations are. There is almost no compassion at all and it makes you pause to consider if they are right, and that is not a good thing.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 3:20pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

While I am inclined to agree with you, and I think it would be absurd to claim that there is no anti-semitisim in the Labour party, one wonders just how much of an issue it really is?

It is clear that Labour and it's leadership are not openly anti-semitic and are certainly not persuing clearly anti-semitic policies. It seems to come back to an issue of culture and the opinions of some members.

It's bizarre that none of these 7 who are so concerned about AS criticised teh defilement of Marx's grave, which has now been desecrated twice in as many weeks. Was he not Jewish?

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 3:21pm

Bambi wrote: »

Accusations are not usually considered evidence, well except for in Witch Hunts

Any luck with those recordings?

You're really determined to insist it's all fake aren't you? I'm not at your beck and call, if I come across them when I'm doing something else I'll post it. I've better things to be doing than chasing stuff down to proof someone on the internet wrong.

ancapailldorcha · 18-02-2019 3:23pm

Hurrache wrote: »

You're really determined to insist it's all fake aren't you? I'm not at your beck and call, if I come across them when I'm doing something else I'll post it. I've better things to be doing than chasing stuff down to proof someone on the internet wrong.

If you make a claim, the onus is on you to back it up if asked. No more of this nonsense please.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 3:27pm

Havockk wrote: »

It's bizarre that none of these 7 who are so concerned about AS criticised teh defilement of Marx's grave, which has now been desecrated twice in as many weeks. Was he not Jewish?

I don't see Jeremy Corbyn tweeting about it either. Does that mean something too?

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 3:28pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If you make a claim, the onus is on you to back it up if asked. No more of this nonsense please.

There's a video there, there's a video posted from parliament of an MP talking about what happened personally to her.

There's posters claiming it's not an issue and there's a video in thread of an MP describing her experience of it, it's backed up.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 3:31pm

jm08 wrote: »

YouGov did a survey on anti-semitism and it showed that Labour Party supporters were the least anti-semitic of all the parties.

I'm not sure how such a survey is going to produce valid results. Does it not require people to openly admit to anti-semitism?
The qeustion asked of Jewish people is far more relevant and accurate I would suspect. As others have observed, people who are the brunt of any kind of othering are far more aware of it than those who either do it casually or in ignorance.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 3:35pm

Berserker wrote: »

There is and was substance behind the claims of anti-Semitism and the failure of the party and it's supporters to address these issues, coupled with Corbyn's appalling leadership has resulted in the breakup of the party.

Naw. All political nonsense.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 3:35pm

Hurrache wrote: »

There's a video there, there's a video posted from parliament of an MP talking about what happened personally to her.

It's not the Peter Willsman comments at a NEC meeting is it? That was about six months ago.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 3:37pm

Havockk wrote: »

It's bizarre that none of these 7 who are so concerned about AS criticised teh defilement of Marx's grave, which has now been desecrated twice in as many weeks. Was he not Jewish?

Presumably the Marx grave was attacked because of a dislike of Marxism.

Dyr · 18-02-2019 3:38pm

Hurrache wrote: »

You're really determined to insist it's all fake aren't you? I'm not at your beck and call, if I come across them when I'm doing something else I'll post it. I've better things to be doing than chasing stuff down to proof someone on the internet wrong.

I determined to see some evidence of institutional antisemitism in the British Labour Party rather than just take the words of MPs who have every reason to sling mud.

If it's institutional then there should be an avalanche of evidence.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 3:39pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not sure how such a survey is going to produce valid results. Does it not require people to openly admit to anti-semitism?
The qeustion asked of Jewish people is far more relevant and accurate I would suspect. As others have observed, people who are the brunt of any kind of othering are far more aware of it than those who either do it casually or in ignorance.

The U.K. government is supported by the DUP. Voters for the DUP march every year burning the flag of this country and many others. They also demand that all taigs be killed. This gets very little coverage or concern.

Hurrache · 18-02-2019 3:43pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not the Peter Willsman comments at a NEC meeting is it? That was about six months ago.

Not sure, I only saw it last week but I don't think it was at the NEC, but not 100%.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 3:46pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The U.K. government is supported by the DUP. Voters for the DUP march every year burning the flag of this country and many others. They also demand that all taigs be killed. This gets very little coverage or concern.

I'm struggling to find the relevance here.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 3:49pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Not sure, I only saw it last week but I don't think it was at the NEC, but not 100%.

Well here's the link to it in The Guardian.

Or it could be this from a few days ago. Although there's no audio on that link. Not sure if there is any.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 3:51pm

This really is political folly. What if no one else follows them? How did the people's vote movement even get this far? With just over 30 days to go, they think this is the best foot forward? It's been clear for months that the people's vote was never going to work and the only way it was going to work was via a GE. And now even if there is a GE they have hamstrung themselves. For me, this is political seppuku one way or another.

oscarBravo · 18-02-2019 3:51pm

listermint wrote: »

Corbyn and his merry band of ultra left have been the single worst opposition party in british living history.

2+ years of Tories making mistake after mistake, month on month, week on week and sometimes the same day. And corbyn and his group were utterly useless.

This. I thought Marina Hyde summed it up quite pithily last week:

And yet, the Tories continue to poll ahead of Labour. It’s always encouraging to hear Corbyn boosters honk about how much they’d expect him to put on in a campaign situation. The slightly incredulous response has to be: um, yes?! I should hope so?! I mean, you would hope that anyone might improve on losing to a party that is essentially a gif of someone lighting their own fart and then being consumed by the fireball. Against that sort of competition, you would expect to be able to run one of the more divisive Sesame Street Muppets – ie Elmo – and put on a few points. It’s hardly a kitemark.

It's not at all surprising that seven Labour MPs have decided to jump ship - what's surprising that more haven't, and sooner (even allowing for the electoral travesty that is FPTP).

jm08 · 18-02-2019 3:53pm

Enzokk wrote: »

I know you are referencing a response on Twitter, but what votes is so offensive of hers in the HoC? It would be great if there is a list of them to see if she is actively pursuing a policy that is not shared by the Labour party and her votes are reflecting this. If not, well then all you are left with is that she is liked by Blair and she is Jewish and neither of those are reasons for the abuse she has suffered.

From her twitter feed:

''id have more sympathy if you turned up to vote against the government who successfully ensured thousands of children will no longer have a hot dinner in school.''

Havockk · 18-02-2019 3:55pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

This. I thought Marina Hyde summed it up quite pithily last week:

It's not at all surprising that seven Labour MPs have decided to jump ship - what's surprising that more haven't, and sooner (even allowing for the electoral travesty that is FPTP).

Ah no, splitting the opposition during a constitutional crisis? Sorry but thats a mad old move to be fair. If the tories don't splinter now what do you think is going to happen?

Havockk · 18-02-2019 3:58pm

The BBC actually broadcast this....

jm08 · 18-02-2019 4:00pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not sure how such a survey is going to produce valid results. Does it not require people to openly admit to anti-semitism?

No. Questions on attitudes (for example, do you believe that Jews control banking etc). All those people were asked the same questions - more Tories than Labour supporters answered those questions which would indicate that they were more anti-semitic than Labour supporters.

The qeustion asked of Jewish people is far more relevant and accurate I would suspect. As others have observed, people who are the brunt of any kind of othering are far more aware of it than those who either do it casually or in ignorance.

Only if you believe perception is reality!

Dyr · 18-02-2019 4:00pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well here's the link to it in The Guardian.

Well that was quite the bombshell. SNIP. No more snarky comments.

oscarBravo · 18-02-2019 4:01pm

Havockk wrote: »

Ah no, splitting the opposition during a constitutional crisis? Sorry but thats a mad old move to be fair. If the tories don't splinter now what do you think is going to happen?

That's the problem with catastrophically poor leadership: there are no good options.

These seven - and the rest of their colleagues - were faced with a decision: either keep supporting probably the worst leadership in the history of the party for the sake of trying to avoid fragmentation, or continue to lend tacit support to a combination of what they perceived to be systemic anti-semitism and a ball-achingly incompetent approach to Brexit.

You can criticise the choice they made, but the alternative isn't exactly a no-brainer.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 4:03pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's the problem with catastrophically poor leadership: there are no good options.

These seven - and the rest of their colleagues - were faced with a decision: either keep supporting probably the worst leadership in the history of the party for the sake of trying to avoid fragmentation, or continue to lend tacit support to a combination of what they perceived to be systemic anti-semitism and a ball-achingly incompetent approach to Brexit.

You can criticise the choice they made, but the alternative isn't exactly a no-brainer.

The alternative of potentially decade long Tory dominance? I'll have to disagree with you on that point OB.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 4:05pm

I do find it strange that so many are critical of those leaving. This is what politics should be about. If the party you are with no longer represent your views (whether that is because you or they have changed) should result in people moving.

Why would people continue to support a Labour party that is so different from the one under Blair for example. They are very different parties at this stage.

People constantly complain that politicians are more interested in their career and themselves then the voters, but when politicians actually do make a stand they are criticised for it.

I don't have to agree with their positions to see that split are actually a good thing in politics.

Dyr · 18-02-2019 4:05pm

Havockk wrote: »

The alternative of potentially decade long Tory dominance? I'll have to disagree with you on that point OB.

There are players on both sides of the Labour party split who will pay the price of a Tory government rather than lose control of the party.

jm08 · 18-02-2019 4:06pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm struggling to find the relevance here.

Presumably, that catholics suffer from bigotry in Northern Ireland and no one in GB bats an eyelid.

quokula · 18-02-2019 4:07pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

I do find it strange that so many are critical of those leaving. This is what politics should be about. If the party you are with no longer represent your views (whether that is because you or they have changed) should result in people moving.

Why would people continue to support a Labour party that is so different from the one under Blair for example. They are very different parties at this stage.

People constantly complain that politicians are more interested in their career and themselves then the voters, but when politicians actually do make a stand they are criticised for it.

I don't have to agree with their positions to see that split are actually a good thing in politics.

Why did they campaign and get themselves elected on a Manifesto 2 years ago that is still entirely consistent with Labour's position now, if they disagree with it so much?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-02-2019 4:09pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm struggling to find the relevance here.

Anti Catholicism is deeply rooted in the UK and in a second partner of government (well a supply and confidence agreemeng) and nobody really cares.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 4:11pm

quokula wrote: »

Why did they campaign and get themselves elected on a Manifesto 2 years ago that is still entirely consistent with Labour's position now, if they disagree with it so much?

Multitude of reasons. They didn't fully understand the manifesto. They didn't have the courage at the time. They believed that JC and the leadership would evolve when presented with the facts and the feelings of the membership.

But why even ask. Maybe they simply no longer agree with it. Have you never changed your position on anything? Are people not allowed to evolve their thinking? Why did Man Utd recently get rid of Jose when only a few months before he got a new contract?

Under your reasoning once a act happens that it is for ever.

quokula · 18-02-2019 4:14pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Multitude of reasons. They didn't fully understand the manifesto. They didn't have the courage at the time. They believed that JC and the leadership would evolve when presented with the facts and the feelings of the membership.

But why even ask. Maybe they simply no longer agree with it. Have you never changed your position on anything? Are people not allowed to evolve their thinking? Why did Man Utd recently get rid of Jose when only a few months before he got a new contract?

Under your reasoning once a act happens that it is for ever.

But the time to do it is at an election. Not to suddenly turn your back on the ticket you were voted in on.

Havockk · 18-02-2019 4:16pm

Bambi wrote: »

There are players on both sides of the Labour party split who will pay the price of a Tory government rather than lose control of the party.

To be fair. I also think the Tories are going to fracture, this is the beginning of a lot of political upheaval in the UK in the coming years so it could all be a moot point.

Yer Da sells Avon · 18-02-2019 4:18pm

Berserker wrote: »

There is and was substance behind the claims of anti-Semitism and the failure of the party and it's supporters to address these issues, coupled with Corbyn's appalling leadership has resulted in the breakup of the party.

Losing seven centre-right MPs is hardly the break-up of the party. The anti-Semitism nonsense exists solely because the 'IRA supporter', 'Russian spy' smears didn't work. The idea that Corbyn, a life-long anti-racism campaigner, is an anti-Semite is absolutely ludicrous. They were right to leave - because they don't support the socialist policies that attracted 12.8 million voters in 2017 - they should be honest and cite those ideological differences as the reason, rather than repeating the same well-rehearsed lies about anti-Semitism.

Dyr · 18-02-2019 4:18pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Multitude of reasons. They didn't fully understand the manifesto. They didn't have the courage at the time. They believed that JC and the leadership would evolve when presented with the facts and the feelings of the membership.

But why even ask. Maybe they simply no longer agree with it. Have you never changed your position on anything? Are people not allowed to evolve their thinking? Why did Man Utd recently get rid of Jose when only a few months before he got a new contract?

Under your reasoning once a act happens that it is for ever.

The problem is that if they claim that they changed their minds (despite being four square against it before the election) then the obvious question is why are they still sitting in the house with a mandate they now reject?

They could have made their departure about Corbyns inability to uphold Labours Brexit policy. The question you should ask is, why didn't they?

18-02-2019 4:24pm

Bambi wrote: »

I determined to see some evidence of institutional antisemitism in the British Labour Party rather than just take the words of MPs who have every reason to sling mud.

If it's institutional then there should be an avalanche of evidence.

I would guess a lot of this comes from Jewish people no longer being the cause celebre of the champagne socialists.

Zionism was a fundamental part of the labour party in its early days, with very close relationships to Poale Zion, but that's not cool anymore, everyone is now worried about the Palestinians and the Muslim votes.

When you have been courting a certain section of society for generations and you decide that supporting them might upset another section of society you want to support, it is never going to be well received.

673 complaints, 96 suspensions and 12 expulsions. It does seem to be an issue and if the leadership aren't dealing with it, then they will face the accusations of it being institutionalised. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47203397

LuckyLloyd · 18-02-2019 4:30pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Multitude of reasons. They didn't fully understand the manifesto. They didn't have the courage at the time. They believed that JC and the leadership would evolve when presented with the facts and the feelings of the membership.

But why even ask. Maybe they simply no longer agree with it. Have you never changed your position on anything? Are people not allowed to evolve their thinking? Why did Man Utd recently get rid of Jose when only a few months before he got a new contract?

Under your reasoning once a act happens that it is for ever.

Ah here! I could understand that the manifesto had zero remnants of Blairism. Corbyn won 40% of the vote off the back of a great campaign and simple effective core message. He has been challenged twice for leadership and seen it off both times. This is the last desperate throw of the dice to force him to resign.

The MPs that resigned don't care about Brexit or the country. They want to inhabit a centre ground of politics and turn back the clock despite the electorate clearly demonstrating where they are in 2016 - 2017. Nothing is forever, and that certainly includes the policy platform they dream of turning back the clock to. We're only 18 months from the last election too!

They'll lose their seats at the next general election and that will be that, shame on them for detracting focus from a constitutional crisis and existential threat to the UK economy.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2019 4:30pm

quokula wrote: »

But the time to do it is at an election. Not to suddenly turn your back on the ticket you were voted in on.

Suddenly. The last election was in 2017. Hardly can be accused of simply pretending to be Labour to get elected.

So when should they announce it? 2 months before, a week? Is there a perfect time?

Bambi wrote: »

The problem is that if they claim that they changed their minds (despite being four square against it before the election) then the obvious question is why are they still sitting in the house with a mandate they now reject?

They could have made their departure about Corbyns inability to uphold Labours Brexit policy. The question you should ask is, why didn't they?

They haven't claimed that, I was merely offering reasons why they might have chosen to leave. You think that they should resign their seat? They won the seat, it was their name, not the party. It is supposed to be that an MP works for the betterment of his area, not simply whatever her party wants.

What these have shown, unlike the ERG, Davis, Raab etc, is that they are prepared to risk their own careers rather than simply snipe from the sidelines. JRM effectively called for TM to resign even when she won a confidence motion, but the very next day was back giving her his full support.

My point being that regardless of whether you think they are making the right choice, regardless of the timing, I think any democrat should applaud when a politician take such a course of action over the easier option of doing nothing.

prawnsambo · 18-02-2019 4:33pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Anti Catholicism is deeply rooted in the UK and in a second partner of government (well a supply and confidence agreemeng) and nobody really cares.

Because it's waved away as nationalism versus loyalism. And even then, people don't seem to be aware of it. Like Theresa Villiers for example. I think if you were to quote some of those sentiments about taigs etc. to people in the UK, you'd find it hard to get them to believe you. You'd have to go through a fair bit of explanation before they'd twig.

quokula · 18-02-2019 4:34pm

Aegir wrote: »

I would guess a lot of this comes from Jewish people no longer being the cause celebre of the champagne socialists.

Zionism was a fundamental part of the labour party in its early days, with very close relationships to Poale Zion, but that's not cool anymore, everyone is now worried about the Palestinians and the Muslim votes.

It's not about what's fashionable. Labour, and the left in general, have always been about protecting the oppressed from the oppressors.

Historically, that has certainly involved a lot of solidarity with the Jewish people. In modern Israel however, it is clearly the Palestinians who are oppressed. And in modern UK, British Jews absolutely do suffer from racism, but it is statistically far smaller than that suffered by British Muslims, and immigrants of any creed and colour. This is why Labour have more often campaigned against Islamophobia in recent years.

Not that that means Labour is anti-semitic in any way - all objective evidence and polling has shown anti-semitism to be much less prevalent among Labour members than it is among the general population.

MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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