Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha · 02-02-2019 11:02am

eagle eye wrote: »

The British people voted on it and decided to leave. I don't think they've changes their minds either despite what some quarters would try and make you believe.
I'd be happy if they never made that decision but we are long past that now.

No, we're not. The ECJ ruled that the UK can unilaterally revoke the notice to trigger Article 50.

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't want us out of the single market.
The difference between me and you and many others is that I'm willing to give the UK a deal where they have control over who is allowed come and live in their country. We can still have no border but they control immigration to the UK.

This is unworkable. The UK wants full access to the single market without any responsibility to abide by its rules. What you're advocating is the destruction of the single market.

I support the UK doing a trade deal with the EU that is both politically feasible and as advantageous as possible. Full access is impossible as that requires free movement.

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm talking lives and you are talking money.
I've been poor before, as a child in the 70's and early 80's and I went through the hard times up to recently because we saved the banks. I'd much rather live in tough financial times than to see innocent lives lost.

It's a shame that the pro-Brexit side care so little for the people of Ireland. We knew there'd be difficulties beforehand but they simply did not care to learn.

First Up · 02-02-2019 11:06am

eagle eye wrote:

I don't want us out of the single market. The difference between me and you and many others is that I'm willing to give the UK a deal where they have control over who is allowed come and live in their country. We can still have no border but they control immigration to the UK.

You don't need a border to control immigration.

PokeHerKing · 02-02-2019 11:09am

An Ciarraioch wrote:

Not much different from the Irish Times a few days ago - there "may" be pressure put on Ireland, "if" May can put a convincing case to Brussels:

I really can't see any instance that would make Leo and Co. backdown on the border. We either get one by bending over or we get one by staying tough. That's really the only two options if the UK BREXIT in its purist form. Or we Irexit..

Why should we suffer the most? Hard border and no deal is much more preferable then hard border and some sort of deal which really only has benefits for the UK and the continent.

Or am I missing something?

lawred2 · 02-02-2019 11:12am

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm talking lives and you are talking money.
I've been poor before, as a child in the 70's and early 80's and I went through the hard times up to recently because we saved the banks. I'd much rather live in tough financial times than to see innocent lives lost.

How did the bank bailout affect you personally?

The increase in taxation was moderate really given the scale of the issue but I'm strugging to see how the bank bailout itself caused hard times..

The bank bailout didn't happen in a vacuum... It was a consequence.

Surely the economic collapse was the issue.. it's not like things would have been tickety boo had the banks not been bailed out. Arguably worse to be honest. We'd have been international pariahs like Argentina.

And maybe like the UK are soon to be if they welch on that 39Bn divorce bill.

prawnsambo · 02-02-2019 11:18am

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm talking lives and you are talking money.
I've been poor before, as a child in the 70's and early 80's and I went through the hard times up to recently because we saved the banks. I'd much rather live in tough financial times than to see innocent lives lost.

No, I'm not. I'm talking about creating the conditions for a resumption of violence, border or no border. Because not having border controls does not dispense with the actualities of a border. You just refuse to acknowledge that those who continue to espouse violence will have a greater reason to continue that campaign and will have increased funding as a result of that. You'd have to be very naive to think that physical border infrastructure is the only thing that would increase the visibility of the border in people's everyday lives. Unless you somehow think that both the UK and Irish authorities will completely waive their international obligations, no matter how 'softly' they do that.

RobMc59 · 02-02-2019 11:27am

Just going back on a post by the capt'n yesterday about obtaining an Irish passport- if you have an Irish parent it's quite simple and inexpensive but if it's irish grandparents you have to apply for Irish citizenship,then you can apply for an Irish passport-with full certificates that can cost as much as 500 euros.

amacca · 02-02-2019 11:46am

Water John wrote: »

My sympathy for Teresa May is gone a long time ago.
She now is in the worst possible position as a negotiator. The other side don't trust her to deliver. She has welched on her own deal.

And in addition to that it can be argued that she put herself in that position with a number of poor decisions beforehand imo.

Enzokk · 02-02-2019 11:51am

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't want us out of the single market.
The difference between me and you and many others is that I'm willing to give the UK a deal where they have control over who is allowed come and live in their country. We can still have no border but they control immigration to the UK.

Well there isn't a deal that keeps us in the single market, has no border between us and NI and also allows the UK to have control over immigration and trade. Add in the new caveat of not having any deviation between NI and the UK then you have to acknowledge that this is impossible.

The main problem with giving the UK a sweetheart deal is that they will exploit this to their advantage down the line. You cannot solve their problem for them now and expect them to be happy in the future if there is one thing that they aren't happy with. If you indulge them now you will pay for it for decades. Look at how the rebates and opt-outs worked out for the EU, the UK has the best deal of all the countries in the EU and they still want out. How is giving them what they want at the detriment to the other members not going to work out the same way?

I still think even in no deal you will have a side deal that ensures the UK keeps to their commitments of the GFA. Yes there will be violence from unionists but in no deal there is violence either way. It will be about how you can control that the best and dealing with it only in NI is better than having to deal with violence on either side of the border from republicans and breaking an international treaty and showing your country to be an unreliable trading partner. As bad as it sounds it will be about what is the most manageable problems to deal with.

This weeks Remainiacs podcast, Remainiacs podcast latest episode, they have a guest who worked for Vote Leave. That would be Oliver Norgrove who offered some very interesting discussion points. He has rightly pointed out that no-one ever campaigned for no deal and those that says that now is lying. But that is exactly what I mean above, those leavers got what they wanted by campaigning on a EEA type of deal but are now going for a complete break. This is how it works if you don't stand up to those leavers like JRM and Farage and Hannan.

Tony Connelly has posted this weeks take on what happened.

Brexit's Brady Amendment: Game Changer or Phony War?

It is a very good summation of what happened and the reaction we have from the EU. I will take a quote from the article from Sabine Weyand, deputy chief negotiator to Barnier, to show that what the UK wants and what you are proposing is offered is not available.

"The idea of a unilateral escape route, a time limit," Sabine Weyand, Michel Barnier's deputy chief negotiator, told an audience during a rare public appearance on Monday, "these were discussed during weeks, nights, weekends… The problem with the Brady amendment is, it doesn't spell out what those alternative arrangements are. We haven’t found them, and the UK negotiators have not been able to explain what they are. And that’s no criticism. It’s because they don’t exist.

"We looked at every border on this earth, every border that the EU has with a third country. There is simply no way you can do away with checks and controls."

As for what she has gotten at least according to the EU is not much,

"Yes, she has a mandate to talk to us," says a senior EU source, "but she doesn't have a very crystal clear mandate on what to talk about, which is the eternal problem with the Brits. So, it's not a solid mandate. Nor is it a precise one."

Beyond the sense of anger at Mrs May apparently reneging on prior promises,officials in Dublin believe this is now a matter of trust and this in turn reinforces the need for a backstop.

"That’s what it comes down to," says a senior Irish figure. "That’s why we need the legal guarantee. It's one of those points that are self-evident. There's incredulity that she can just whip her party to vote against the thing she has said for the last two weeks is the only plan available. And there's the irony of the context of the issue itself: it’s all about trust."

So we are no closer to getting a solution at all as the EU doesn't really trust the UK if May keeps throwing her own deals under the bus and what she wants is still not defined or even available if she could define it.

It is a long article but it makes for interesting reading.

Water John · 02-02-2019 11:53am

With the tight vote of 52/48, the first move should be a consensus build. Instead she triggered Art 50 and gave us Red Lines.

Enzokk · 02-02-2019 11:57am

Water John wrote: »

With the tight vote of 52/48, the first move should be a consensus build. Instead she triggered Art 50 and gave us Red Lines.

There is a belief that the UK political system is adversarial. It is about one party shouting down the opposition and the press behaves this way as well. It is the way it has always been and they will be reticent to change it, to their own detriment. A country stuck in the past.

black forest · 02-02-2019 11:58am

Kate Hayward once more shows the reality of a N/S border in IE. Her first graphic shows the flow of persons, cars and HGV´s in N/S and E/W direction. Where would a border be more effective and easier to implement? And this should be valid for a backstop as well as for a hard border.

Her seven questions show the currrent situation in a very clear light. May be some Brexiteers can see it as well.

https://twitter.com/hayward_katy/status/1091468143632044033?s=21

Dr. Katy Hayward reads at the Queens University in Belfast. She is a political sociologist and you can find her articles in the Guardian and others.

EdgeCase · 02-02-2019 11:59am

If we are seriously discussing Ireland leaving the single market over this, I guess I better consider emigration again as it would be economic suicide.

I'm fed up to the back teeth with this stupid Brexit nonsense. I barely got though the 2008 recession and now this!

Just when you think everything's going well along comes a bunch of ultra nationalist morons to destroy it all.

Between morons in the UK generally who voted for this and more morons up north who on one hand are the DUP voters and on the other seem to want to blow things up rather than come up with sensible solutions. Meanwhile they can't even get their act together and open their own assembly and government at the one time when it's utterly essential. I don't know that I want to live on these insane islands anymore.

I guess it's time to brush up my French and German and pack the bags. Although I'm not going near France given the likelihood of Le Pen and all the toxic politics there too.

I'm really starting to regret not having gone to Australia or Canada or maybe NZ back in 08. I'm probably 10 years too late now.

I think I'll have to stay off political forums to keep my own stress levels down. Utterly fed up with all of this.

J Mysterio · 02-02-2019 12:14pm

Enzokk wrote: »

Well there isn't a deal that keeps us in the single market, has no border between us and NI and also allows the UK to have control over immigration and trade. Add in the new caveat of not having any deviation between NI and the UK then you have to acknowledge that this is impossible.

The main problem with giving the UK a sweetheart deal is that they will exploit this to their advantage down the line. You cannot solve their problem for them now and expect them to be happy in the future if there is one thing that they aren't happy with. If you indulge them now you will pay for it for decades. Look at how the rebates and opt-outs worked out for the EU, the UK has the best deal of all the countries in the EU and they still want out. How is giving them what they want at the detriment to the other members not going to work out the same way?

I still think even in no deal you will have a side deal that ensures the UK keeps to their commitments of the GFA. Yes there will be violence from unionists but in no deal there is violence either way. It will be about how you can control that the best and dealing with it only in NI is better than having to deal with violence on either side of the border from republicans and breaking an international treaty and showing your country to be an unreliable trading partner. As bad as it sounds it will be about what is the most manageable problems to deal with.

This weeks Remainiacs podcast, Remainiacs podcast latest episode, they have a guest who worked for Vote Leave. That would be Oliver Norgrove who offered some very interesting discussion points. He has rightly pointed out that no-one ever campaigned for no deal and those that says that now is lying. But that is exactly what I mean above, those leavers got what they wanted by campaigning on a EEA type of deal but are now going for a complete break. This is how it works if you don't stand up to those leavers like JRM and Farage and Hannan.

Tony Connelly has posted this weeks take on what happened.

Brexit's Brady Amendment: Game Changer or Phony War?

It is a very good summation of what happened and the reaction we have from the EU. I will take a quote from the article from Sabine Weyand, deputy chief negotiator to Barnier, to show that what the UK wants and what you are proposing is offered is not available.

As for what she has gotten at least according to the EU is not much,

So we are no closer to getting a solution at all as the EU doesn't really trust the UK if May keeps throwing her own deals under the bus and what she wants is still not defined or even available if she could define it.

It is a long article but it makes for interesting reading.

You seem to contradict yourself here.

"I still think even in no deal you will have a side deal that ensures the UK keeps to their commitments of the GFA."

How is this possible wheb you accept that No Deal resorts in a hard border and thus disenfranchises nationalists, and removes their rights?

fash · 02-02-2019 12:19pm

eagle eye wrote: »

The British people voted on it and decided to leave. I don't think they've changes their minds either despite what some quarters would try and make you believe.
I'd be happy if they never made that decision but we are long past that now.

I don't want us out of the single market.
The difference between me and you and many others is that I'm willing to give the UK a deal where they have control over who is allowed come and live in their country. We can still have no border but they control immigration to the UK.

I'm talking lives and you are talking money.
I've been poor before, as a child in the 70's and early 80's and I went through the hard times up to recently because we saved the banks. I'd much rather live in tough financial times than to see innocent lives lost.

For Ireland to do that, it would need to leave the EU and rejoin or effectively rejoin the UK - there is no way of doing that while remaining part of the single market and customs Union.
Have you ever seen the chart of "poorest regions in Northern Europe" - 9 of 10 of them are in the UK - and that if with EU membership protecting the regions and strengthening their economy. What treatment could Ireland expect as a region of the UK? Especially a jingoistic and xenophobic UK?
How much business is in Ireland because of our. EU membership?
Even if you still think it is a good idea, how do you get there from here? How long to set up a referendum in Ireland, to get. UK agreement etc. ? How does that fit with the article 50 process?

Enzokk · 02-02-2019 12:26pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

You seem to contradict yourself here.

"I still think even in no deal you will have a side deal that ensures the UK keeps to their commitments of the GFA."

How is this possible wheb you accept that No Deal resorts in a hard border and thus disenfranchises nationalists, and removes their rights?

Maybe using the phrase deal in the event of no deal is not the right phrasing but the EU has already indicated it will have plans in place to ensure some areas are still able to operate and it will not create absolute chaos if there is no deal. Areas like air travel and financial services where the EU will give up to 12 months for companies to sort out themselves to ensure they have everything they need to keep operating in the EU (basically)

EU no-deal Brexit plan: UK citizens' rights, flights, and no mention of Irish border

Under the plan, the European Union will allow UK-based financial operators to continue to access European markets for 12 months under a “temporary and conditional equivalence” period to prevent disruption.

Europe will allow British flights to continue to access the “Single European Sky” air traffic control area for 12 months and extend some aviation licences for nine months after 29 March.

There will also be measures to allow UK firms temporary access to the EU emissions trading market and new customs regulations to oversee trade with Britain as an outside party.

These will be to ensure disruption is less for the EU. It is not for the UK and if they see benefit from these plans (not deals apparently) it is not intended but a byproduct. So I can see a situation where such a plan is done to ensure both countries keep to their promises of the GFA. Wishful thinking I know but it is all I have not to get an ulcer stressing about the return to violence for people on this island.

murphaph · 02-02-2019 12:26pm

eagle eye wrote: »

We have to protect people first. A border caused chaos, we cannot have a border.

I don't want a visible border either but if we fail to protect the single market then we will essentially find ourselves outside it as our goods will need to be checked when they arrive in the protected single market.

That consigns our country to a 1930s level of dependence on the crazies next door.

We should strive to provide a sane alternative option for the people of Northern Ireland. We can only do that with a sound economy based on membership of the single market. This great thing is what ultimately raised our country out of its economic slumber.

We have to hold our nerve but I agree with Francie that Brexit essentially breaks the GFA. We can do our best with the remnants and try to actively pursuade unionists to vote for a united Ireland. The invisible border was for the benefit of nationalists. Unionists got a guarantee that NI remains in the union so long as a majority are in favour.

The carrot given to nationalists is about to be turned into a stick, which is completely unfair.

Leroy42 · 02-02-2019 12:28pm

EagleEye has previously explained that their solution is simply to ignore it.

So rather than getting the UK to abide by an internationally recognised peace agreement they want Ireland to actively break the rules of the EU.

Curly Judge · 02-02-2019 12:31pm

eagle eye wrote: »

The British people voted on it and decided to leave. I don't think they've changes their minds either despite what some quarters would try and make you believe.
I'd be happy if they never made that decision but we are long past that now.

I don't want us out of the single market.
The difference between me and you and many others is that I'm willing to give the UK a deal where they have control over who is allowed come and live in their country. We can still have no border but they control immigration to the UK.

I'm talking lives and you are talking money.
I've been poor before, as a child in the 70's and early 80's and I went through the hard times up to recently because we saved the banks. I'd much rather live in tough financial times than to see innocent lives lost.

Your worries are somewhat academic, if I may say so.
WTO rules will compel the UK to secure a border even if the EU turned a blind eye to us not implementing one.

Folkstonian · 02-02-2019 12:31pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think if you're truly "into saving the lives of innocent people" then you should be calling for the cancellation of Brexit.

The UK voted for this. It's that simple. It's their mess to resolve. All the Irish government can do is prepare for the worst outcome.

That’s deeply unsettling though. Cancelling Brexit because of the threat of a return to violence would be bending to the will of terrorists.

Should we really allow democratic decisions to be held hostage by armed nutters who don’t like the outcome of this vote, or any future vote?

Better to identify, arrest and prosecute anyone who is inclined to use violent tactics to thwart Brexit

ancapailldorcha · 02-02-2019 12:41pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

That’s deeply unsettling though. Cancelling Brexit because of the threat of a return to violence would be bending to the will of terrorists.

Should we really allow democratic decisions to be held hostage by armed nutters who don’t like the outcome of this vote, or any future vote?

It's not cancelling Brexit to cater to the whims of terrorists. It's cancelling Brexit because it can't be enacted without destabilising a region which underwent decades of internecine warfare which cost thousands of lives until it can be thought through and enacted with a workable plan for the Irish border.

I'd also question your use of the term "Democratic decisions". Virtually everything promised by the official Leave campaign was based on deceit from Turkey joining the EU to £350 million a week for the NHS to the easiest trade deal in history.

The people made their will known in 2016. Now they must shut up about it for good and return to the usual voting regime where a party wins 40% of the vote and forms a government.

Folkstonian wrote: »

Better to identify, arrest and prosecute anyone who is inclined to use violent tactics to thwart Brexit

Who is suggesting violent tactics to thwart Brexit? The Irish nationalists' goal is a United Ireland. The Unionists goal is to maintain perpetual unity with Great Britain.

RobMc59 · 02-02-2019 12:47pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

If we are seriously discussing Ireland leaving the single market over this, I guess I better consider emigration again as it would be economic suicide.

I'm fed up to the back teeth with this stupid Brexit nonsense. I barely got though the 2008 recession and now this!

Just when you think everything's going well along comes a bunch of ultra nationalist morons to destroy it all.

Between morons in the UK generally who voted for this and more morons up north who on one hand are the DUP voters and on the other seem to want to blow things up rather than come up with sensible solutions. Meanwhile they can't even get their act together and open their own assembly and government at the one time when it's utterly essential. I don't know that I want to live on these insane islands anymore.

I guess it's time to brush up my French and German and pack the bags. Although I'm not going near France given the likelihood of Le Pen and all the toxic politics there too.

I'm really starting to regret not having gone to Australia or Canada or maybe NZ back in 08. I'm probably 10 years too late now.

I think I'll have to stay off political forums to keep my own stress levels down. Utterly fed up with all of this.

If you'd gone to aus you might have had to swear allegiance...not sure about nz or Canada.

Capt'n Midnight · 02-02-2019 12:53pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And this bit is just comedy gold with 59 days to go.

The UK's Department for International Trade has said the EU-Japan trade deal would increase UK GDP by up to £3bn "in the longer term".

EU-Japan trade: Five things about the world's biggest deal

Six : Anything not on a ship next week won't arrive in the UK in time to benefit from this deal.

58 days to go.
It takes 35 days to ship something from Yokohama to Felixstowe.
If you miss next Saturday's sailing then the next ship doesn't get in 'till April fools day.

CBA looking up other routes, it wouldn't change much. UK to Japan will take similar times.

The UK will of course want to continue the existing deal.
But what's in it for Japan ? Scotland is a competitor for booze.
And the EU will be jealous of the services deal they've just done.

EdgeCase · 02-02-2019 12:54pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you'd gone to aus you might have had to swear allegiance...not sure about nz or Canada.

At least they're not exposed to the utter incompetence of HM Gov UK. It's only a symbolic head of state linkage and entirely separate governance.

We're symbolically entirely separate but we are still exposed to mayhem due to physical proximity unfortunately.

Folkstonian · 02-02-2019 12:59pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

If we are seriously discussing Ireland leaving the single market over this, I guess I better consider emigration again as it would be economic suicide.

I'm fed up to the back teeth with this stupid Brexit nonsense. I barely got though the 2008 recession and now this!

Just when you think everything's going well along comes a bunch of ultra nationalist morons to destroy it all.

Between morons in the UK generally who voted for this and more morons up north who on one hand are the DUP voters and on the other seem to want to blow things up rather than come up with sensible solutions. Meanwhile they can't even get their act together and open their own assembly and government at the one time when it's utterly essential. I don't know that I want to live on these insane islands anymore.

I guess it's time to brush up my French and German and pack the bags. Although I'm not going near France given the likelihood of Le Pen and all the toxic politics there too.

I'm really starting to regret not having gone to Australia or Canada or maybe NZ back in 08. I'm probably 10 years too late now.

I think I'll have to stay off political forums to keep my own stress levels down. Utterly fed up with all of this.

How old are you? It’s never too late to make even a big jump like that.

My sister lives in Singapore now, but was in Melbourne for a few years beforehand, she said there were loads of people who were 20 to 25 years into their career at home who had taken the leap and slotted in seamlessly to Aussie life

FrancieBrady · 02-02-2019 1:05pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

That’s deeply unsettling though. Cancelling Brexit because of the threat of a return to violence would be bending to the will of terrorists.

Should we really allow democratic decisions to be held hostage by armed nutters who don’t like the outcome of this vote, or any future vote?

Better to identify, arrest and prosecute anyone who is inclined to use violent tactics to thwart Brexit

Is this 'We never negotiate with terrorists' spiel ala Maggie Thatcher again? While she was secretly chatting away undermining and trying to sell out Unionism.

Who could trust the UK not to bend? Certainly not unionists, if they have an ounce of sense and awareness of what happened last time.

Brexit refocuses the inherent problems and stupidity associated with partition.

That is always going to lead to conflict and those that imposed it, need to realise that.

Calina · 02-02-2019 1:12pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

That’s deeply unsettling though. Cancelling Brexit because of the threat of a return to violence would be bending to the will of terrorists.

Should we really allow democratic decisions to be held hostage by armed nutters who don’t like the outcome of this vote, or any future vote?

Better to identify, arrest and prosecute anyone who is inclined to use violent tactics to thwart Brexit

But that is not why. The UK signed up to the GFA. Canceling Brexit because they have obligations linked to the GFA is not canceling Brexit because of armed nutters.

eagle eye · 02-02-2019 1:16pm

lawred2 wrote:

Surely the economic collapse was the issue.. it's not like things would have been tickety boo had the banks not been bailed out. Arguably worse to be honest. We'd have been international pariahs like Argentina.

Well I used the bank bailout, of course there was a lot of things involved but I went through hard times like many others regardless if the cause. I'm not here to argue what caused it.

Capt'n Midnight · 02-02-2019 1:18pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Just going back on a post by the capt'n yesterday about obtaining an Irish passport- if you have an Irish parent it's quite simple and inexpensive but if it's irish grandparents you have to apply for Irish citizenship,then you can apply for an Irish passport-with full certificates that can cost as much as 500 euros.

That's actually quite reasonable considering the UK alternatives
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/visa-regulations-revised-table/8-october-2018

An up to 5 year UK visa costs £636
Indefinite leave to remain £2,389
Expedited processing - Priority service £477 *
Super Premium service £10,500 :eek:

*When I renewed my Irish passport online I had to send in my birth cert, so it got delayed. Still just four days from application to getting it in the post.

A UK citizen working in the EU might be forced or tempted to renounce their UK citizenship and take on local nationality to continue to work there, but it cost a lot to regain UK citizenship again, over a grand and it's not guaranteed if you have outstanding parking tickets (not a joke BTW).

Plan B
An Irish passport allows you full UK and EU access.
A no brainer for many entitled UK nationals working in the EU and non-UK persons working in the UK.

Leroy42 · 02-02-2019 1:19pm

Terrorism is only the easiest to highlight area.

Brexit fundamentally changes the foundation on which the GFA was built. It marks a very serious change in the position that both sides are equally accommodated. Very clearly the UK government is giving significant preference to the unionist side. This goes against the very spirit of the agreement.

TM said, when agreeing the government pack with the DUP that it wasn't against the GFA and ever since sides completely with unionism.

Far from saying that the will of the people of NI must be respected, they have highlighted their unionism and in effect said that NI can never be considered for a UI.

eagle eye · 02-02-2019 1:21pm

Leroy42 wrote:

So rather than getting the UK to abide by an internationally recognised peace agreement they want Ireland to actively break the rules of the EU.

Well that is if our backs are to the wall.

The EU need to get back to the table with them and throw them a bone to get a deal done for our sake.

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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