Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

UsedToWait

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Theresa Mays exit to Brussels with an interview invoking battles and Britain and being armed just sets the right tone doesn't it?

In light of the BBC (allegedly accidentally) showing video of World War 2 planes over a story about May heading to Brussels last week, May saying today "I will battle for Britain" is quite an unfortunate (or deliberate) choice of phrasing.

Irishmale0399

UsedToWait wrote: »

In light of the BBC (allegedly accidentally) showing video of World War 2 planes over a story about May heading to Brussels last week, May saying today "I will battle for Britain" is quite an unfortunate (or deliberate) choice of phrasing.

The sad part of it is that she hasnt heard the EU saying they will not reopen the WA which includes the backstop. The deal she negotiated is the one on the table.



They are starting to make Trump look good at this stage.

Impetus

I’d prefer not to turn into an Elton Musk type (Tesla, SpaceX, Solar City etc), and stick to the knitting. That does not prevent me from communicating thoughts concerning matters various in a public forum.

I have added some reference links to videos and other material to my original posting
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109320859&postcount=192

Impetus

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But if there are queue's and delays and passport controls then it's going to cost more to pay for the driver's downtime.

Which one is suggesting is avoided by using an alternative route. There is also the environmental issue of an LNG shipping system which is clean, compared with trucks hurtling down a motorway in England. I can't for example see the British reserving a special lane on their already overcrowded road network for EU registered vehicles to give them priority.

I see the Celtic Sea as a big wide road, capable of carrying not only freight, but fiber optics and UHVDC power lines (perhaps in the same entity). The power connections are needed to remove the risk of over-dependence on any single renewable energy source, (and remove the FX risk on selling electricity into another currency zone).

The Celtic Sea is a greatly underutilised resource.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-2.6/centery:50.2/zoom:6

nice_guy80

That's a cool website

Seth Brundle

Lizzie to be moved into hiding if things turn sour. I wonder if the secret location will be in the EU

British officials have revived Cold War emergency plans to relocate the royal family should there be riots in London if Britain suffers a disruptive departure from the European Union next month, two Sunday newspapers reported.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/queen-elizabeth-to-be-evacuated-in-event-of-brexit-unrest-1.3780582

judeboy101

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Lizzie to be moved into hiding if things turn sour. I wonder if the secret location will be in the EU


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/queen-elizabeth-to-be-evacuated-in-event-of-brexit-unrest-1.3780582

The blitz couldn't shift the monarch from London, but brexit could.

Sam Russell

judeboy101 wrote: »

The blitz couldn't shift the monarch from London, but brexit could.

I think they had plans to move the monarch to Canada, but it would be quite tricky to avoid the U-boats - so they stayed in London. They would have had to go the Scotland to avoid the bombing and the V1 and V2 rockets.

An Ciarraioch

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think they had plans to move the monarch to Canada, but it would be quite tricky to avoid the U-boats - so they stayed in London. They would have had to go the Scotland to avoid the bombing and the V1 and V2 rockets.

Somewhat OT, but various novelists such as Robert Harris, CJ Sansom among others who have written alternative WWII histories generally have the royal family and Churchill in Canada as a "government-in-exile" , suggesting this indeed was the official plan.

4068ac1elhodqr

Might be worth taking shares in the companies that make yellow vests.
Earnings down, prices up, 52 vs 48% on the streets etc.

They would really want to delay it all until Aug/Sept until spud harvest season,
not sure if much food grows or can be picked in early spring.

RobMc59

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Somewhat OT, but various novelists such as Robert Harris, CJ Sansom among others who have written alternative WWII histories generally have the royal family and Churchill in Canada as a "government-in-exile" , suggesting this indeed was the official plan.

Harris has an alternative fascist UI state,possibly having a Monarchy.

Seth Brundle

For those that missed it, here is Sajid Javid talking his nonsense on BBC earlier

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1092039231344566272?s=19


Meanwhile Michael Gove is trying to scare people into avoiding a no-deal Brexit because of potential rat infestations...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/fears-no-deal-brexit-could-13944476

Spanish Eyes

At this stage I am puzzled by the pragmatism being displayed by the British about a no Deal Brexit.

The attitude seems to be "we are sick of all this, get on with it now", which is possibly a Government tactic anyway.

Whatever happens, I sincerely hope that the EU holds its nerve re the backstop. The Government here cannot under any circumstances agree to any watering down of the Backstop. But there could be an EU momentum for some compromise.

I suppose as long as our Government doesn't agree, and the decision is made by the EU it will be ok (maybe not, but you know what I mean politics wise).

If EU agree to any amendment of the Backstop, well, we will have been truly stitched up, and the British will laugh all the way home.

It is not a pleasant time for anyone.

Irishmale0399

If the UK gets a soft Brexit and the EU gives in to their demands which member state will be next to scream we want out with a great deal???

Spanish Eyes

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

If the UK gets a soft Brexit and the EU gives in to their demands which member state will be next to scream we want out with a great deal???

I am not talking about a "soft Brexit" at all. Just the pressure that seems to be being placed by the British for a change to the backstop.

The present Government here cannot really, under any circumstances give an inch now, otherwise they are finished IMV. If EU makes the decision well that's another sad story in the making, and the British will laugh their cotton socks off.

May we live in interesting times.

Infini

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Whatever happens, I sincerely hope that the EU holds its nerve re the backstop. The Government here cannot under any circumstances agree to any watering down of the Backstop. But there could be an EU momentum for some compromise.

To be honest looking at all the information lets be clear: The EU means it when they say there will be no renegotiation of the backstop under current conditions. The ONLY way it gets dropped is if Britain changes its redlines to remain within the SM and CU and only if that happens because then theres no need for it. The current issue is remaining in the SM and CU is Mays red lines and the backstop is ours because its the only practical solution on the table otherwise and this doesnt change after Brexit as it still will be part of any deal then as well.

Simply put the EU wont throw us under the bus because Britain is the one throwing themselves under it and while its frustraiting its Britain bring stupid thats caused all this not Ireland and its Britain that pays the price for going full retard with this populist BS along with May and co.

Impetus

KildareP wrote: »

Waterjet is incredibly more expensive to run however and has not had great success on the Irish Sea to date.

Stena long since withdrew all three HSS gas-turbine waterjet craft.
Two of the three have now been scrapped - well before their expected service life.
The fuel costs were astronomical when they ran 99 minute crossings, with 5 return trips a day and over the years they both extended the voyage time beyond 2 hours and cut the frequency to just one return trip a day.

Irish Ferries have had a bit better luck with their diesel waterjet craft, but even they have halved the number of crossings over the years. They also recently sold the first Swift craft to be replaced with a vessel just two years "newer" than the existing Swift but with a much slower service speed which would again point to fuel costs not being worth the faster voyage time.

Do you have numbers for that statement? I'd have thought of the problem with the high speed Irish Sea routes is largely a function of low cost air travel alternatives, because they relied on human PAX numbers.

In any event, there are probably separate markets for slower sea, faster sea, and air freight. Depending on urgency, shelf life, weight, etc of the merchandise.

In my view GB is a very over-priced source for (eg) consumer products. eg I can buy 4 l 40 wash laundry detergent for about EUR 4 - made in Italy or France. In Ireland that quantity of P&G detergent would cost about EUR 12 to 15. There are also issues of product quality in GB sourced merchandise (perhaps leaving P&G aside on the quality front). Irish retailers don't even bother offering continental FMCGs - leaving the consumer open to FX rip-offs and 'get what you can' retail pricing. Which is part of the problem of IRL being such an expensive country to visit/live in/work in.

Like gov.ie's price for the new childrens' hospital in Dublin - another copycat idea from GB - the idea of a state 'run' public health service. Meanwhile health in Switzerland, Netherlands and even Communist France is insurance based - where the insurer pays on a per task basis - not a 'civil service flat salary' and the job is done by people who are motivated to act in an efficient manner. There is little motive to act in an efficient manner while in the employ of a state.

A digression, perhaps, but Ireland seems to have great difficulty looking beyond its neighbouring island when it comes to inventions, design and resources.

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think they had plans to move the monarch to Canada, but it would be quite tricky to avoid the U-boats - so they stayed in London. They would have had to go the Scotland to avoid the bombing and the V1 and V2 rockets.

That was indeed the plan. The King was head of state of Canada, Australia etc and would be free to live anywhere in his own realm.....he wouldn't even need anyone's permission to move there.

Irishmale0399

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am not talking about a "soft Brexit" at all. Just the pressure that seems to be being placed by the British for a change to the backstop.

The present Government here cannot really, under any circumstances give an inch now, otherwise they are finished IMV. If EU makes the decision well that's another sad story in the making, and the British will laugh their cotton socks off.

May we live in interesting times.

Personally if I was in power in Brussels I would have long told May that she is barking up the wrong tree and that she can dance back to London to tell her government that they will leave with a no deal Brexit.


The HoC are trying to blame everyone for their own short comings. The deal they negotiated is on the table...take it or leave it.


Northern Ireland and the border is only a tool for them, as is the DUP...they dont care about it and I would suspect they would get rid of Northern Ireland tomorrow if they could. Doesnt benifit them in any way and costs London money.

An Ciarraioch

An influential ERG member already saying that it's not just the backstop:

http://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1091978006883635200

Anthracite

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

An influential ERG member already saying that it's not just the backstop:

http://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1091978006883635200

Well they want no deal, so it's important for them to find a backstop to the EU conceding ground on the backstop.

An Ciarraioch

Time to come home to the "family"!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235821

Seth Brundle

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Time to come home to the "family"!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235821

Oh I hope it gets 100k signatures. I'd love to see them ask us to come back only for their happy faces to turn to a confused disappointment when we politely say "no way"

gooch2k9

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Time to come home to the "family"!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235821

It's depressing watching the signature count of that creeping up. Lots of signatures from NI.

Is May actually planning on visiting Brussels or what? The amendment vote was taken last Tuesday, she should have been there and back by now, not wasting more time. Not that the EU will entertain her.

EdgeCase

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Time to come home to the "family"!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235821

Their ignorance of modern history is just beyond belief at times.

I've a better idea, why don't we offer them the opportunity to become an Irish county?

FrancieBrady

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Time to come home to the "family"!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235821

Thankfully John Bruton is not still Taoiseach or he would probably waste time and money holding a referendum on this.
And thankfully again, modern FG have seen the value in espousing the republican values that brought about our independence at least when it comes to Brexit.

EdgeCase

The embarrassing bit is if that goes beyond 100,000 or whatever the limit is the UK parliament will be having a debate on annexing part of the Eurozone, depending on how it's spun it could look EXTREMELY bad at the EU level, particularly if the Westminster debate went weird.

It could be quite interesting too if it gets traction with the Irish American communities. The UK may get sympathy on some aspects of right wing stuff, but if they step on right wing Irish-American sense of Irish independence, it could really burn a lot of bridges with some of the Trump cabinet.

They forget that Ireland wields enormously more soft power in the US than they do and that particular topic they're pursuing is absolutely playing with fire.

An Ciarraioch

gooch2k9 wrote: »

It's depressing watching the signature count of that creeping up. Lots of signatures from NI.

Is May actually planning on visiting Brussels or what? The amendment vote was taken last Tuesday, she should have been there and back by now, not wasting more time. Not that the EU will entertain her.

In fairness, could also be Irish people doing the old "SW1A 1AA" code, just for the laugh.

gooch2k9

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

In fairness, could also be Irish people doing the old "SW1A 1AA" code, just for the laugh.

I'm half tempted myself after Edgecase's last post!

LeinsterDub

It seems some members of the UK are finally holding lying MPs feet to the fire.

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1092093761570652160

It's a shame it's coming 30 years too late

Impetus

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Time to come home to the "family"!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235821

la carte de la naïveté:


https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=235821


(position voting patterns on a map)

EdgeCase

It shows how that petition system is not really the best form of deliberative democracy. It's open to online trolling.

LeinsterDub

EdgeCase wrote: »

It shows how that petition system is not really the best form of deliberative democracy.

We should troll this petition I'd love to see this debated in the HoC it would be a hilarious car crash

Capt'n Midnight

EdgeCase wrote: »

They forget that Ireland wields enormously more soft power in the US than they do and that particular topic they're pursuing is absolutely playing with fire.

Half of our cabinet will be in the US for St Patrick's day too.

robinph

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

gooch2k9 wrote: »

It's depressing watching the signature count of that creeping up. Lots of signatures from NI.

Is May actually planning on visiting Brussels or what? The amendment vote was taken last Tuesday, she should have been there and back by now, not wasting more time. Not that the EU will entertain her.

In fairness, could also be Irish people doing the old "SW1A 1AA" code, just for the laugh.

You can click on the map link and see where the majority of the votes have come from.

Capt'n Midnight

Seth Brundle wrote: »

For those that missed it, here is Sajid Javid talking his nonsense on BBC earlier

Sooooo......

We are right back "but if there was an alternative we wouldn't need a backstop".

Infini

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We should troll this petition I'd love to see this debated in the HoC it would be a hilarious car crash

Set up one instead for having a poll to return the 6 counties to the rest of the island?

Sam Russell

EdgeCase wrote: »

They forget that Ireland wields enormously more soft power in the US than they do and that particular topic they're pursuing is absolutely playing with fire.

But don't the UK have a special relationship with the US - you know, the one where they get to buy US nuclear weapons but can only use them with permission, and they can build aircraft carriers that can only fly US fighters.

Hmmm .... does not appear to be that special or even good.

Enzokk

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Is May actually planning on visiting Brussels or what? The amendment vote was taken last Tuesday, she should have been there and back by now, not wasting more time. Not that the EU will entertain her.

Her plan seems to be to bribe opposition MPs to vote for her deal by offering their constituencies more money and by scaring other MPs to vote for it as they know no-deal would be a disaster. With that in mind there is no need to go back to Brussels as she knows she will get nothing new and is just waiting it out to either have her plan passed or the country fall off the cliff. What a leader!

tipp_tipp_tipp

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It seems some members of the UK are finally holding lying MPs feet to the fire.

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1092093761570652160

It's a shame it's coming 30 years too late

Is that the same guy that last year posted on twitter last year about how leaving the protectionist EU would remove tariffs on food items and mean much cheaper food for the UK? Only for people to respond to him with pics of all kinds of foods that were imported tariff free from round the world thanks to EU trade deals. Remember that well. Pretty sure it was a guy with a Polish surname that posted it.

Seth Brundle

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It seems some members of the UK are finally holding lying MPs feet to the fire.

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1092093761570652160

It's a shame it's coming 30 years too late

This Twitter thread about Kawczynski's income makes interesting reading and may explain his views...
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1092040413240807424?s=19

WomanSkirtFan8

EdgeCase wrote: »

Their ignorance of modern history is just beyond belief at times.

It's absolutely staggering. They've been living in an post-colonial imperalistic bubble for so long now its become second-nature for them.

Strazdas

Enzokk wrote: »

Her plan seems to be to bribe opposition MPs to vote for her deal by offering their constituencies more money and by scaring other MPs to vote for it as they know no-deal would be a disaster. With that in mind there is no need to go back to Brussels as she knows she will get nothing new and is just waiting it out to either have her plan passed or the country fall off the cliff. What a leader!

Andrew Adonis was on Ch.4 News this evening and said the number of Labour MPs likely to be swayed by this will be miniscule.

Spanish Eyes

From what I have heard, the history teaching in UK involves the 1066 conquest, the world wars and not much about the Irish question.

My friends in UK verify this.

No wonder there is a jingoistic version of history in UK.

History is so important, it is so easy to make the same mistakes and expect a different result.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. There will be no quelling of the hubris/arrogance of UK now it seems.

I suspect that they expect everyone to bow down to them now. I hope there is no dilution in the EU stance on the backstop, as I said earlier.

UK need to decide for themselves now.

Lemming

robinph wrote: »

You can click on the map link and see where the majority of the votes have come from.

If you open the json-format data file you can see the count by country, voting catchment area, etc. Some interesting reading; including the 16 people (at time I loaded the data) who signed the petition from Ireland.

Strazdas

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

From what I have heard, the history teaching in UK involves the 1066 conquest, the world wars and not much about the Irish question.

My friends in UK verify this.

No wonder there is a jingoistic version of history in UK.

History is so important, it is so easy to make the same mistakes and expect a different result.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. There will be no quelling of the hubris/arrogance of UK now it seems.

I suspect that they expect everyone to bow down to them now. I hope there is no dilution in the EU stance on the backstop, as I said earlier.

UK need to decide for themselves now.

It's a very interesting angle to this Brexit malarkey. Much of the enthusiasm for Brexit seems to be fuelled by profound ignorance of the world around them and an almost warped version of the history of Europe and Britain's role in it. This is not just Leave voters on the street, but the media and politicians, everyone.

Enzokk

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Is that the same guy that last year posted on twitter last year about how leaving the protectionist EU would remove tariffs on food items and mean much cheaper food for the UK? Only for people to respond to him with pics of all kinds of foods that were imported tariff free from round the world thanks to EU trade deals. Remember that well. Pretty sure it was a guy with a Polish surname that posted it.

Yes it is one and the same. The presenter should have backed down on his questions on his tweet and asked him a question about article 50. When he answered he should have asked him if his information is as accurate as in his tweet and whether they could believe it.

trellheim

A picture outlining the current trilemma

Capt'n Midnight

Enzokk wrote: »

Her plan seems to be to bribe opposition MPs to vote for her deal by offering their constituencies more money and by scaring other MPs to vote for it as they know no-deal would be a disaster. With that in mind there is no need to go back to Brussels as she knows she will get nothing new and is just waiting it out to either have her plan passed or the country fall off the cliff. What a leader!

What exactly has May given the Scottish Tory MP's that she totally depends on ?

Apart from rolling over and allowing the Faroe Islands to continue to fish in Scottish waters.


Even if a Labour MP believed May there's no guarantee that it would get paid before the next election. Which Labour would like tomorrow.

Lots of kite flying.

Fr Tod Umptious

trellheim wrote: »

A picture outlining the current trilemma

Not that great on the old facts there.

Option B suggests Ireland veto to WA.

That's not possible, they along with other 26 agreeded on it on 25th November