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fundamentalists using covid to ram through measures

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    #122
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Can't wait for the pedestrianisation of College Green, what Dublin needs badly is more pedestrianised areas like this to match the lovely boardwalk. The tourists will love the sight of junkies sitting around our latest braindead idea.


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    #123
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,386 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Big Gerry wrote: »
    The green head the balls are clueless when it comes to economics or how the real world works.

    Economics like this, Gerry?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2018/11/16/cyclists-spend-40-more-in-londons-shops-than-motorists/


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    #124
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Mullaghteelin wrote: »
    Out of town retail parks have sprung up because of car culture.
    They are the result of taking car dependency to the very extreme,
    These places are there specifically to cater for motorists.
    The city centre, on the other hand, was not built for cars.
    When you look at old photos of the city with familiar buildings and streets but no cars, it really hits home.
    Its only then you appreciate how recent traffic gridlock, noise and fumes are.
    All these things belong on motorways, but not in the heart of a nations capital.

    This is not really understood here by the facebook Karens who think their 'road tax' entitles them to things.

    The UK embraced Americanisation and the Marshel plan post world war 2 and destroyed their city centres with motorway/dual carriageway building worse than the luftwaffe did. It can even be seen in Belfast where they plowed the 'Westlink' through the City Centre and severed the City from it's inner suburbs. The result now is that most British Cities are dead after sunset and the air quality is horrific. Most evenings in British Cities (even Birmingham, the second largest) you can walk around and not see a soul. Obviously London is an exception and in recent years Belfast has developed a Centre worth mentioning but obviously there were other problems there.

    Similar, but less extreme, set ups exist in West German Cities, and in France. Although I see in Paris they've at least reclaimed the banks of the sein.

    We're very lucky here that the government here didn't have the cash to go lashing motorways through cities in the post war era.


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    #125
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Can't wait for the pedestrianisation of College Green, what Dublin needs badly is more pedestrianised areas like this to match the lovely boardwalk. The tourists will love the sight of junkies sitting around our latest braindead idea.

    I'd much rather have to cope with the sight of an unfortunate person than have to suck the fumes out of exhaust pipes to be fair.

    Is your contention that all space that isn't handed over to vehicles will immediately be consumed by junkies?

    Maybe a mature discussion about our policy on drugs would be a better solution to 'junkies on the pavement' than displacing them with cars?


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    #126
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I'd much rather have to cope with the sight of an unfortunate person than have to suck the fumes out of exhaust pipes to be fair.

    Is your contention that all space that isn't handed over to vehicles will immediately be consumed by junkies?

    Maybe a mature discussion about our policy on drugs would be a better solution to 'junkies on the pavement' than displacing them with cars?

    Honestly, as somebody who frequents this part of town by bike/bus/walking, there is already enough junkies hanging around to know what will happen.

    People think they are creating Piazza Venezia here, the reality will be the opposite. Would you go for a walk with your kids along the boardwalk?


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    #127
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There are ways to tackle that issue which are usually blocked by the same NIMBYs as try block pedestrianisation. Allowing a problem that virtually no other city has and is entirely down to awful service provision and management to block other things should not happen.


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    #128
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I think that Covid is being used by Dublin Corporation to force through measures that are similar to those rejected by An Bord Pleanala last year.

    The main losers will be bus commuters like me, who will have to use less convenient routes to, and stops in, the city centre.

    As the OP correctly implies, the big gainers will be the vocal and extremely well-organised cycling lobby, who are gettting everything they want and more.


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    #129
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,893 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    As the OP correctly implies, the big gainers will be the vocal and extremely well-organised cycling lobby, who are gettting everything they want and more.

    Sure they are. Why it's like Amsterdam/Copenhagen out there :rolleyes:


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    #130
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,386 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Boulevardier wrote: »

    As the OP correctly implies, the big gainers will be the vocal and extremely well-organised cycling lobby, who are gettting everything they want and more.
    #BigCycling wins again - it's all those expensive PR consultants and professional lobbyists that they use that make all the difference.


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    #131
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,506 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I think that Covid is being used by Dublin Corporation to force through measures that are similar to those rejected by An Bord Pleanala last year.

    The main losers will be bus commuters like me, who will have to use less convenient routes to, and stops in, the city centre.

    As the OP correctly implies, the big gainers will be the vocal and extremely well-organised cycling lobby, who are gettting everything they want and more.

    Public transport won't be negatively affected by improved cycling infrastructure.


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    #132
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    As the OP correctly implies, the big gainers will be the vocal and extremely well-organised cycling lobby, who are gettting everything they want and more.
    You're just being melodramatic!
    There is no "extremely well-organised cycling lobby". There are a few small groups with almost no influence, sadly.


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    #133
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,386 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    You're just being melodramatic!
    There is no "extremely well-organised cycling lobby". There are a few small groups with almost no influence, sadly.

    Certainly, they have close to zero resources. Last time I looked, Cyclist.ie had one half-time person iirc working on these issues. The rest of the 'extremely well organised cycling lobby' was entirely down to volunteers.

    If it is ''extremely well organised" that should be held up as an example to others.


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    #134
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I have seen what the cycling activists are able to do, such as standing with their bikes the whole way down Rathmines Road as an (understandable) protest against motorists using their space.

    My point is that public transport users have never been able to do anything analogous to that. Try calling a meeting for public transport users and see how many turn up. I've done this and it is very frustrating.

    That is of course partly the fault of us transport users ourselves, but the net effect is that cyclists as a group are taken seriously while bus commuters are not listened to.


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    #135
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I have seen what the cycling activists are able to do, such as standing with their bikes the whole way down Rathmines Road as an (understandable) protest against motorists using their space.
    You initially referred to the cycling lobby which would indicate an organized approach.
    Now you are referring to a small number of people who met after seeing a few tweets because they’re pissed off with the authorities allowing our crap selection of cycle lanes to become parking spots.
    They’re not activists.
    They are just commuters.
    Boulevardier wrote: »
    My point is that public transport users have never been able to do anything analogous to that. Try calling a meeting for public transport users and see how many turn up. I've done this and it is very frustrating.

    That is of course partly the fault of us transport users ourselves, but the net effect is that cyclists as a group are taken seriously while bus commuters are not listened to.
    What’s stopping you from putting out a tweet asking people to meet you so you can stop cars using the bus lanes? There’s plenty of places where you can find breaches occurring.

    However, you claim that as a group cyclists are taken seriously. They’re not!
    As an example, a meeting with Cork City Council CEO Ann Doherty on improving safety for cyclists in Cork City began with Doherty reading out an email from a resident giving out about cyclists on footpaths.
    Cycling infrastructure is brutal with most infrastructure being token efforts that involve a little bit of paint which has limited safety qualities. Infrastructure for cyclists is far too often designed and built without any involvement from people who actually cycle. Most infrastructure therefore reflects this ignorance and is therefore reluctantly used, if it is even used.
    Driver education and law enforcement are wish washy and poorly thought through. Garda enforcement (like so many traffic laws) are poor. I’ve reported a lot of drivers this year with video evidence but I’ve wasted my time (and it does take a fair bit of time between going there! Waiting and then having to narrate a stupid statement of how I felt scared because a car sped past a foot away from me.
    Anyhow, I’m going on and on. My point was though was that people who cycle are not generally listened to by society.


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    #136
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I never said the cycling lobby was run by PR consultants. A lobby can consist of activists. I think the cycling lobby are certainly listened to by the powers that be in Dublin, especially by people like Owen Keegan.


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    #137
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ...and my point was that until recently theres almost no evidence that anything was being done by the councils to make cycling safer (either commuting or leisure cycling).


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    #138
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I never said the cycling lobby was run by PR consultants. A lobby can consist of activists. I think the cycling lobby are certainly listened to by the powers that be in Dublin, especially by people like Owen Keegan.

    I don't know how you can think that? there has only been about 4 or 5 km of useable cylce lane built in Dublin in the past decade. Most would agree it's one of the worst EU capitals for cycling.


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    #139
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Honestly, as somebody who frequents this part of town by bike/bus/walking, there is already enough junkies hanging around to know what will happen.

    People think they are creating Piazza Venezia here, the reality will be the opposite. Would you go for a walk with your kids along the boardwalk?

    I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Rome, but there are far more homeless and people with addition issues around the streets than Dublin. But that doesn't suit your narrative of course.


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    #140
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Amirani wrote: »
    I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Rome, but there are far more homeless and people with addition issues around the streets than Dublin. But that doesn't suit your narrative of course.
    They're crap at sums?


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    #141
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Amirani wrote: »
    I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Rome, but there are far more homeless and people with addition issues around the streets than Dublin. But that doesn't suit your narrative of course.

    Was there a few years ago, I didn't see that many homeless people, certainly not in the main Piazza's.


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    #142
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Was there a few years ago, I didn't see that many homeless people, certainly not in the main Piazza's.

    Didn't stop by Piazza Manzini then? https://www.thelocal.it/20190124/tenth-homeless-person-dies-in-rome-cold

    There are about 8000 homeless in Rome, at least 3000 of which are rough sleepers.

    Comparatively, Dublin has less than 150 rough sleepers.

    So I fail to see how you think it's appropriate for Rome to have welcoming pedestrianised areas, but not Dublin.


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    #143
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Italian pedestrian spaces are more chaotic than Irish motorways. all the pedestrian only streets have the worlds loudest mopeds flying up and down them at 60km/h, the rules just aren't recognised, especially in the South. if a copper stops a moped the driver just gives him a few euros, a lot less than the official fine and the officer didn't see a thing.


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    #144
    WishUWereHere
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Apologies if this has been mentioned before: There used to be a loading bay almost on the corner heading out of town by Castlewood Avenue. It is now closed off. Far too short to be of benefit to cyclists, anyone any idea why it was blocked off?

    Lots of delivery vans use that bay ( me included ) can see lots of problems there going forward.


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    #145
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Is it not being used as a means to widen the footpaths to allow for social distancing?


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    #146
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,386 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I have seen what the cycling activists are able to do, such as standing with their bikes the whole way down Rathmines Road as an (understandable) protest against motorists using their space.

    My point is that public transport users have never been able to do anything analogous to that. Try calling a meeting for public transport users and see how many turn up. I've done this and it is very frustrating.

    That is of course partly the fault of us transport users ourselves, but the net effect is that cyclists as a group are taken seriously while bus commuters are not listened to.

    You should get involved with
    https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters?s=09


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    #147
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    WishUWereHere wrote: »
    Apologies if this has been mentioned before: There used to be a loading bay almost on the corner heading out of town by Castlewood Avenue. It is now closed off. Far too short to be of benefit to cyclists, anyone any idea why it was blocked off?

    Lots of delivery vans use that bay ( me included ) can see lots of problems there going forward.

    There is always Prince Arthur Tce across the road, or the dedicated loading dock at the back of the swan centre, or the three lanes of traffic + cycle lane that you would be entitled to set down on for 30 mins to load.


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    #148
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,746 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I really hate this "I want to drive everywhere whenever I want because we need a metro" attitude - well I hate to break it to you but we're not getting a metro in the next 10 years, or the next 20 years in my opinion. So meanwhile we have to get cars out of the city centre and prioritise more efficient ways of getting around.


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    #149
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,506 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I don't know how you can think that? there has only been about 4 or 5 km of useable cylce lane built in Dublin in the past decade. Most would agree it's one of the worst EU capitals for cycling.

    The cyclists tend to be well educated, driven & articulate people. Well used to and good at getting their point across.


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    #150
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    The cyclists tend to be well educated, driven & articulate people. Well used to and good at getting their point across.

    Perhaps but cyclists aren't taken seriously by policy makers, indeed neither are any civic minded people.


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    #151
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,506 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Perhaps but cyclists aren't taken seriously by policy makers, indeed neither are any civic minded people.

    The policy makers and the bureaucrats in between them and the cyclists don't tend to be well educated, driven & articulate people.


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