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All Ireland Senior Hurling (Liam Mccarthy Cup) 2019
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While Tipp were at their brilliant best in the second half, I can’t help but feel that a lot of the genuine Tipp fans will view this as a hollow victory.
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Give that a rest
Why would Tipp - a team came from behind to beat Wexford when they were down to 14 men see this a hollow victory?
In a year where they beat - Cork, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Laois, Wexford and Kilkenny to win the AI..
Yeah a hollow one alright.0 -
Field east wrote: »Heard Cody interview on radio and ‘sour grapes ‘ came to mind. He alluded to the fact that the ref was not initially sure of what happened re the Hogan Barrett incident. In other words he ‘dillied dallied ‘ over the incident - suggesting that there was doubt in the refs mind, therefor he should have given Hogan the benefit of the doubt. From what I saw , it was the linesman who brought the incident to the notice of the ref, so of course the few had to ‘ gather all the facts’ b4 acting - especially given the potential influence of the outcome re a red card.
Cody also alluded to the wet conditions causing Hogan to not be totally in control of his actions as he approached Barrett. The TV showing the action speaks for itself- there was no ‘slipping and sliding’ in the approach contact and follow through by Hogan.
If Hogan wanted to ‘ get Barrett back’ for an earlier incident there were a thousand outer ways of doing it legitimally - the chief one being adding to the scoreboard. If he wanted to give Barrett a ‘ good shoulder’ to wind , injure or drive Barrett over the sideline then he should have done it with his shoulder and NOT his elbow. From an empathy point of view it was just a ‘ moment of madness ‘ by Hogan. As they say ‘ it can happen a bishop’
Inclined to agree. KK have specialised in the past in playing hard & fast, over the edge of the rules in AI semifinal & finals. They'd waltz through Leinster. Then bet on the likelihood that the ref would not send men to the line, either because they'd miss the final or ruin the final. Yesterday the officials stood up and said no, you can't be clattering into people like that.
When that didn't work yesterday, they then reverted to plan and pumped the ball in, hoping for a break. That didn't work out either.
Know that Brian Cody is lauded for many years of success but kinda think he should have retired a few years ago when he was still ahead.0 -
Was at the match yesterday first off could not believe how many tickets were available around town, second never seen rain like it and as for the match obviously red card changed it, it was very hard to see at time it happened to judge but I have just watched the Sunday game there and to be honest it was 100% red0
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KK revel in the man on man stuff... physical battle - if enough Kilkenny players get the better of their man then they often come out on the right end of things..
The red card changed the dynamic and gave Tipp space and time. It was no longer primarily a battle hinging on physicality and intensity - it was now more about space and the movement of both man and the ball..
And the better ball players won out.
It's no surprise to me that the likes of Bubbles had a far better time in the second half than they did in the first.. time and space to do what they do best.
At the same time, Richie Hogan, a corner forward, is not worth 14 points. Kilkenny could still have contained Tipp better than what they did. I'm really not sure what they were playing at sending the ball in on top of Kennedy and Maher for the entirety of that second half.0 -
I keep seeing this comment that the red card ruined the game. Should we be ensuring a good game and not applying the rules at the expense of the players?
If you believe the game was ruined by the red card then take up your frustrations with Richie Hogan!!0 -
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The best Hurling team all year won the All Ireland. Congratulations Tipperary. Congratulations to the referee as well yesterday as we simply could not go with the type of refereeing and some of the so called hurling that took place in the semi - finals.
Since the helmet became mandatory, tackling has developed to a dangerous level at head height and Hogans decision to elbow a player into the jaw was rightly punished.0 -
Hogan suffered a much worse hit in the qf with Cork, with no red dished out, I'm sure you felt the same concern about "dangerous" tackling then too.The best Hurling team all year won the All Ireland. Congratulations Tipperary. Congratulations to the referee as well yesterday as we simply could not go with the type of refereeing and some of the so called hurling that took place in the semi - finals.
Since the helmet became mandatory, tackling has developed to a dangerous level at head height and Hogans decision to elbow a player into the jaw was rightly punished.0 -
Absolutely. Needs to be stamped out.Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »Hogan suffered a much worse hit in the qf with Cork, with no red dished out, I'm sure you felt the same concern about "dangerous" tackling then too.0 -
People keep saying ‘it ruined the game’ as if that matters even a tiny bit. A red card offense deserves a red card regardless of it effect on the game as a spectacle. Pundits saying it should be taken into accounts it’s finals day is nonsense. It was a red card, blatantly obvious. The amount of debate around it is crazy. The whataboutery regarding other challenges is rubbish too.
The reaction from Kilkenny to the whole day has been very disappointing from such a great hurling county0 -
Field east wrote: »Heard Cody interview on radio and ‘sour grapes ‘ came to mind. He alluded to the fact that the ref was not initially sure of what happened re the Hogan Barrett incident. In other words he ‘dillied dallied ‘ over the incident - suggesting that there was doubt in the refs mind, therefor he should have given Hogan the benefit of the doubt. From what I saw , it was the linesman who brought the incident to the notice of the ref, so of course the few had to ‘ gather all the facts’ b4 acting - especially given the potential influence of the outcome re a red card.
Cody also alluded to the wet conditions causing Hogan to not be totally in control of his actions as he approached Barrett. The TV showing the action speaks for itself- there was no ‘slipping and sliding’ in the approach contact and follow through by Hogan.
If Hogan wanted to ‘ get Barrett back’ for an earlier incident there were a thousand outer ways of doing it legitimally - the chief one being adding to the scoreboard. If he wanted to give Barrett a ‘ good shoulder’ to wind , injure or drive Barrett over the sideline then he should have done it with his shoulder and NOT his elbow. From an empathy point of view it was just a ‘ moment of madness ‘ by Hogan. As they say ‘ it can happen a bishop’
Did Barrett ‘ make a meal of it’? . What player does not ‘ go down’ or ‘ make a meal of it when there is a possibility of getting a free AT LEAST. The ‘ follow through’ by the victim is aimed at enhancing what happened for the refs and his assistants eyes. And saying to the ref - ‘ ref , look , I have been fouled’
A big issue is being made of 14 v 15 for half the match. The missing position was the Kilkenny CORNER FORWARD. So what were the goalie, the six backs , the two centerfield and the three half forwards doing to allow themselves be beaten by 14 points. Yes more ball was sent up from the Tipp backs, but No better team than Kilkenny to rise to the situation when the chips are down. For some strange reason , a GAA team with one ‘man’ down very often find the reserves to substantially compensate for the missing player.
IMO Cody was outfoxed by Sheedy. Tipp did little or no hurling in the First half and Kilkenny did all the hurling yet Tipp lead by a pt ad H time. They were expected to wake up in the second half and the definitely did.
First of all Tipp were the better team and the red card was probably deserved. But do you really expect an inter county manager to go on the airwaves post match and not defend his own player? Cody demands fierce loyalty from his players and is obviously going to show it in return on the airwaves. The biggest issue about 14 v 15 is not just corner forward it's more about the space left and Tipp were masterful in there use of it. Of course KK could have tried different tactics but probably wouldn't have altered the result due to Tipps excellent performance.0 -
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Well a little graciousness in defeat would suffice, Cody didnt give one ounce of credit to Tipp, but then hes in the same category of Ferguson/Wenger of never crediting the opposition for anything0
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People keep saying ‘it ruined the game’ as if that matters even a tiny bit. A red card offense deserves a red card regardless of it effect on the game as a spectacle. Pundits saying it should be taken into accounts it’s finals day is nonsense. It was a red card, blatantly obvious. The amount of debate around it is crazy. The whataboutery regarding other challenges is rubbish too.
The reaction from Kilkenny to the whole day has been very disappointing from such a great hurling county
When there is such inconsistency in the application of rules discussion of other similar incidents that did not result in red cards is going to happen whether you like it or not0 -
People keep saying ‘it ruined the game’ as if that matters even a tiny bit. A red card offense deserves a red card regardless of it effect on the game as a spectacle. Pundits saying it should be taken into accounts it’s finals day is nonsense. It was a red card, blatantly obvious. The amount of debate around it is crazy. The whataboutery regarding other challenges is rubbish too.
The reaction from Kilkenny to the whole day has been very disappointing from such a great hurling county
Plenty of KK people on here crediting Tipp for their performance. We are however entitled to defend our own as I imagine you would with your own county and players and will make no apologies for that. Plenty of anti KK brigade on here so some do feel its necessary to support our own due to the service and enjoyment they have given our county over the years. Once again fair play to Tipp better team on the day. Onwards and upwards to next year.0 -
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corner back 2 wrote: »Plenty of KK people on here crediting Tipp for their performance. We are however entitled to defend our own as I imagine you would with your own county and players and will make no apologies for that. Plenty of anti KK brigade on here so some do feel its necessary to support our own due to the service and enjoyment they have given our county over the years. Once again fair play to Tipp better team on the day. Onwards and upwards to next year.
Defend your own absolutely. The way some are trying to defend Hogan is nonsensical. Defend his character and ability against some ridiculous claims. But to defend the challenge as many are trying is wrong. As are the attacks on Barrett. That the red wasn’t justified for ‘ruining the game’. Ex players talking out their hole with zero perspective or humility
Many have said well done Tipp. Many have gone ‘well done Tipp, but...’
Others have gone and only talked about the clear red as being wrong. The Kilkenny thread comes across as horribly bitter0 -
Tipp deserved their win.
Better hurlers better players.
A dark day for kilkenny. Mauled by tipp again, played stone age tactics in the second half. I was disappointed in them. But quite simply they havent got the class that's needed to win. Cody worked wonders to get them back to the final.
It wont be a final that lives long in the memory
Tickets were everywhere before hand, it was drab and a boring game in comparison to 17 and 18.
Roll on 20200 -
Field east wrote: »Heard Cody interview on radio and ‘sour grapes ‘ came to mind. He alluded to the fact that the ref was not initially sure of what happened re the Hogan Barrett incident. In other words he ‘dillied dallied ‘ over the incident - suggesting that there was doubt in the refs mind, therefor he should have given Hogan the benefit of the doubt. From what I saw , it was the linesman who brought the incident to the notice of the ref, so of course the few had to ‘ gather all the facts’ b4 acting - especially given the potential influence of the outcome re a red card.
Cody also alluded to the wet conditions causing Hogan to not be totally in control of his actions as he approached Barrett. The TV showing the action speaks for itself- there was no ‘slipping and sliding’ in the approach contact and follow through by Hogan.
If Hogan wanted to ‘ get Barrett back’ for an earlier incident there were a thousand outer ways of doing it legitimally - the chief one being adding to the scoreboard. If he wanted to give Barrett a ‘ good shoulder’ to wind , injure or drive Barrett over the sideline then he should have done it with his shoulder and NOT his elbow. From an empathy point of view it was just a ‘ moment of madness ‘ by Hogan. As they say ‘ it can happen a bishop’
Did Barrett ‘ make a meal of it’? . What player does not ‘ go down’ or ‘ make a meal of it when there is a possibility of getting a free AT LEAST. The ‘ follow through’ by the victim is aimed at enhancing what happened for the refs and his assistants eyes. And saying to the ref - ‘ ref , look , I have been fouled’
A big issue is being made of 14 v 15 for half the match. The missing position was the Kilkenny CORNER FORWARD. So what were the goalie, the six backs , the two centerfield and the three half forwards doing to allow themselves be beaten by 14 points. Yes more ball was sent up from the Tipp backs, but No better team than Kilkenny to rise to the situation when the chips are down. For some strange reason , a GAA team with one ‘man’ down very often find the reserves to substantially compensate for the missing player.
IMO Cody was outfoxed by Sheedy. Tipp did little or no hurling in the First half and Kilkenny did all the hurling yet Tipp lead by a pt ad H time. They were expected to wake up in the second half and the definitely did.
I can think of at least 4 incidents where players have done the exact opposite of what you are suggesting (including 2 in AI finals). Defending a player for feigning injury by suggesting all others do it is a sad reflection on the game.
I have no doubt that this influenced the referees decision.
I would have to agree that the referee took an extraordinarily amount of time to make the decision. I know it was a big decision but usually with a red card it is done straight away. I never agreed with checking with the injured player before closing the incident. The extent of the injury should not influence the decision as a player can be badly injured by an innocuous foul or a player can be fine after a bad foul. The fact that he had a chat with Richie (no t BTW) before sending him off was also quite odd. I am not saying for one second that the red was the wrong decision but I think The reaction of the player has to be challenged when they appear to be exaggerating the injury.
Can we also put to bed this ****e of Richie trying to retaliate for an earlier incident. Richie is not that kind of player first of all and watching it, it is clear that Barrett’s footwork caught Richie out. If Richie wanted to retaliate then he would have done it on the scoreboard!!
Your reading of the spare man is far too simplistic. Yes Tipp had a free corner back but that allowed then the space to put good ball into the full forward line. This is what killed Kilkenny. The Kilkenny backs hurled extremely well in a difficult situation so to question their play yesterday is not lazy analysis. In other games particularly when teams player a sweeper being a man down doesn’t mean as much but when your game plan is based on
I dont believe that Tipp would have run away with it if it was 15v15. Yes they were having their purple patch but so did Limerick towards the end of the semi final. A point down at half time and playing with the wind in the second half I think you would have been foolish to say it was game over for Kilkenny.0 -
I can think of at least 4 incidents where players have done the exact opposite of what you are suggesting (including 2 in AI finals). Defending a player for feigning injury by suggesting all others do it is a sad reflection on the game.
I have no doubt that this influenced the referees decision.
I would have to agree that the referee took an extraordinarily amount of time to make the decision. I know it was a big decision but usually with a red card it is done straight away. I never agreed with checking with the injured player before closing the incident. The extent of the injury should not influence the decision as a player can be badly injured by an innocuous foul or a player can be fine after a bad foul. The fact that he had a chat with Richie (no t BTW) before sending him off was also quite odd. I am not saying for one second that the red was the wrong decision but I think The reaction of the player has to be challenged when they appear to be exaggerating the injury.
Can we also put to bed this ****e of Richie trying to retaliate for an earlier incident. Richie is not that kind of player first of all and watching it, it is clear that Barrett’s footwork caught Richie out. If Richie wanted to retaliate then he would have done it on the scoreboard!!
Your reading of the spare man is far too simplistic. Yes Tipp had a free corner back but that allowed then the space to put good ball into the full forward line. This is what killed Kilkenny. The Kilkenny backs hurled extremely well in a difficult situation so to question their play yesterday is not lazy analysis. In other games particularly when teams player a sweeper being a man down doesn’t mean as much but when your game plan is based on
I dont believe that Tipp would have run away with it if it was 15v15. Yes they were having their purple patch but so did Limerick towards the end of the semi final. A point down at half time and playing with the wind in the second half I think you would have been foolish to say it was game over for Kilkenny.
Disagree - it was clear as day he was looking to leave one on Barrett after getting a smack earlier
He put this before his team on the biggest stage of all
Amazing the ref and Barrett are taking flak for this. All Kilkennys ire should be at Hogan himself0 -
corner back 2 wrote: »Plenty of KK people on here crediting Tipp for their performance. We are however entitled to defend our own as I imagine you would with your own county and players and will make no apologies for that. Plenty of anti KK brigade on here so some do feel its necessary to support our own due to the service and enjoyment they have given our county over the years. Once again fair play to Tipp better team on the day. Onwards and upwards to next year.
Not really. Token “Tipp were the better team but...” replies mostly where it goes on to argue that the sending off shouldn’t have happened and that it changed the game. Sour grapes is all it comes across as0 -
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Give that a rest
Why would Tipp - a team came from behind to beat Wexford when they were down to 14 men see this a hollow victory?
In a year where they beat - Cork, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Laois, Wexford and Kilkenny to win the AI..
Yeah a hollow one alright.
The manner of the win yesterday and the fact that there are still questions about some of their key players suggests that a lot of Tipp fans won’t be celebrating or boasting as much as previous years. I’m not denying them the All Ireland they have been outstanding throughout the championship but there will be a be a lingering feeling hanging over this one. I get the feeling that Tipp would have loved a one point win over Kilkenny to prove they have the bottle etc. Yesterday when it was still close, a lot of their star players were way off the pace and only came into when the game opened up. Not taking away from the year they had but I expect (and so far I have been correct) that celebrations will be subdued.0 -
I can think of at least 4 incidents where players have done the exact opposite of what you are suggesting (including 2 in AI finals). Defending a player for feigning injury by suggesting all others do it is a sad reflection on the game.
I have no doubt that this influenced the referees decision.
I would have to agree that the referee took an extraordinarily amount of time to make the decision. I know it was a big decision but usually with a red card it is done straight away. I never agreed with checking with the injured player before closing the incident. The extent of the injury should not influence the decision as a player can be badly injured by an innocuous foul or a player can be fine after a bad foul. The fact that he had a chat with Richie (no t BTW) before sending him off was also quite odd. I am not saying for one second that the red was the wrong decision but I think The reaction of the player has to be challenged when they appear to be exaggerating the injury.
Can we also put to bed this ****e of Richie trying to retaliate for an earlier incident. Richie is not that kind of player first of all and watching it, it is clear that Barrett’s footwork caught Richie out. If Richie wanted to retaliate then he would have done it on the scoreboard!!
Your reading of the spare man is far too simplistic. Yes Tipp had a free corner back but that allowed then the space to put good ball into the full forward line. This is what killed Kilkenny. The Kilkenny backs hurled extremely well in a difficult situation so to question their play yesterday is not lazy analysis. In other games particularly when teams player a sweeper being a man down doesn’t mean as much but when your game plan is based on
I dont believe that Tipp would have run away with it if it was 15v15. Yes they were having their purple patch but so did Limerick towards the end of the semi final. A point down at half time and playing with the wind in the second half I think you would have been foolish to say it was game over for Kilkenny.
of all the posts so far, I think I couldnt disagree with this one more. In every aspect.
The ref took his time. He didnt rush what was to be a critical incident. He spoke with the linesman. He made sure that there was actual contact with Barrett. He spoke with Hogan to ensure he knew exactly why he was getting a red card. He did everything right in the moment. he didnt rush in, he made a careful considered, and absolutely 100% correct decision.
"not that kind of player" I love that cliche. Always to excuse a bad tackle. Hogan was sold a dummy, and threw out an elbow to make connection with a players head.
A Tipp man free in the corner backs meant they had space in the full forward line? It is not lazy analysis to say Kilkennys tactics were abysmal when down to 14. You dont continuously keep hitting high balls down to their spare man when you are a man down. Thats not lazy analysis, it is calling as it is and that Kilkenny and Cody played an awful game after half time when they had a chance to reorganise and sort themselves out. Many teams have done it with 14 and played well. Kilkenny gave a template of how not to do it.
Tipperary had weathered the storm and despite all Kilkennys huffing and puffing, they didnt get much over on them despite having their best period and Tipperarys worst. I've no doubt Tipp would have won handy anyway, but no one will really know.0 -
Sweet.Science wrote: »Disagree - it was clear as day he was looking to leave one on Barrett after getting a smack earlier
He put this before his team on the biggest stage of all
Amazing the ref and Barrett are taking flak for this. All Kilkennys ire should be at Hogan himself
How can it be clear as day that it was a retaliation? Can you read minds now?
Anyone who knows Richie knows he is certainly not that kind of player. Even the Tipp fan beside me yesterday said that.
The majority of Kilkenny fans know Richie was wrong but are frustrated by the overreaction of Barrett and the delay in the decision making of the referee. If Barrett had gotten straight back up and the referee walked over and showed the red then it would be a different story. Again this is not saying it wasn’t a red but the feeling that every attempt was made to ensure it was a red rather than the other way around.0 -
Sweet.Science wrote: »Disagree - it was clear as day he was looking to leave one on Barrett after getting a smack earlier
He put this before his team on the biggest stage of all
Amazing the ref and Barrett are taking flar this. All Kilkennys ire should be at Hogan himself
it was a blatant attack on barret . its very obviously done to get back at him. its not like he slid into him. hogan put is arm out to make contact with barrett.0 -
Agree completely that the ref took his time, mulled it over and talked to his linesman etc and eventually took the absolutely correct decision.
...but what puzzled me is why he went over to see how injured/rattled Barrett was. I mean an elbow into the face is a straight red card. End of story. So why did he actually look at Barrett? He wasn't checking if he was fit to continue. He was clearly checking how he 'looked'. Strange.
If Barrett had been smiling and looking totally alert or had already walked back into position, I wonder would the ref had bottled the decision and gone yellow?
In any event I am glad he went red. Refs should always follow the rules, even in a final.0 -
This notion that Tipp had weathered the storm implying that Tipp were going to dominate from that point on in the game and Kilkenny wouldn't lead again involves just as much speculation as saying Kilkenny would have won had it been 15 on 15 for the entire game0
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The levels of delusion some of the lads posting on this thread operate under is quite staggering.0
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of all the posts so far, I think I couldnt disagree with this one more. In every aspect.
The ref took his time. He didnt rush what was to be a critical incident. He spoke with the linesman. He made sure that there was actual contact with Barrett. He spoke with Hogan to ensure he knew exactly why he was getting a red card. He did everything right in the moment. he didnt rush in, he made a careful considered, and absolutely 100% correct decision.
"not that kind of player" I love that cliche. Always to excuse a bad tackle. Hogan was sold a dummy, and threw out an elbow to make connection with a players head.
A Tipp man free in the corner backs meant they had space in the full forward line? It is not lazy analysis to say Kilkennys tactics were abysmal when down to 14. You dont continuously keep hitting high balls down to their spare man when you are a man down. Thats not lazy analysis, it is calling as it is and that Kilkenny and Cody played an awful game after half time when they had a chance to reorganise and sort themselves out. Many teams have done it with 14 and played well. Kilkenny gave a template of how not to do it.
Tipperary had weathered the storm and despite all Kilkennys huffing and puffing, they didnt get much over on them despite having their best period and Tipperarys worst. I've no doubt Tipp would have won handy anyway, but no one will really know.
what made kilkenny so great for so long was depth of players they had. they always had another gear to go into and the ability to change to suit the game. if 2 or 3 players had an off day or were marked out of it ,there was always a few on the bench that could change the match.
they didnt have that yesterday . no plan b . they were bet after 20 minutes. they scored very little from play in the first half . if tipp were more disiplined tj reid wouldnt have scored as many0 -
of all the posts so far, I think I couldnt disagree with this one more. In every aspect.
The ref took his time. He didnt rush what was to be a critical incident. He spoke with the linesman. He made sure that there was actual contact with Barrett. He spoke with Hogan to ensure he knew exactly why he was getting a red card. He did everything right in the moment. he didnt rush in, he made a careful considered, and absolutely 100% correct decision.
"not that kind of player" I love that cliche. Always to excuse a bad tackle. Hogan was sold a dummy, and threw out an elbow to make connection with a players head.
A Tipp man free in the corner backs meant they had space in the full forward line? It is not lazy analysis to say Kilkennys tactics were abysmal when down to 14. You dont continuously keep hitting high balls down to their spare man when you are a man down. Thats not lazy analysis, it is calling as it is and that Kilkenny and Cody played an awful game after half time when they had a chance to reorganise and sort themselves out. Many teams have done it with 14 and played well. Kilkenny gave a template of how not to do it.
Tipperary had weathered the storm and despite all Kilkennys huffing and puffing, they didnt get much over on them despite having their best period and Tipperarys worst. I've no doubt Tipp would have won handy anyway, but no one will really know.
If the ref has to speak to the injured player to know whether contact was made or not as you have suggested (I personally think the linesman saw it) then it is an questionable decision.
The defence of Richie is not that kind of player comes back to those suggestions that he would go out and try to do a player because he got fouled earlier. Yes it was a bad tackle and that it’s mainly due to the agility of Barrett not the intent of Richie.
It is lazy analysis to not understand the influence of a free man on Kilkennys game plan. Their game plan was working extremely well for the first 20 minutes when they went 8 points to 3 up. Yes Tipp had their purple patch after that but Kilkenny were still well in the game with a number of the Tipp forwards struggling with the close attention from the Kilkenny backs. The free man allowed Tipp to run the ball out of defence and play good quality ball into the forwards.0 -
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the_pen_turner wrote: »it was a blatant attack on barret . its very obviously done to get back at him. its not like he slid into him. hogan put is arm out to make contact with barrett.
After Barrett took a step back0
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