VW ID.4

Redlim · 26-09-2020 4:07pm

liamog wrote: »

I'd really love to see a side by side winter comparison between two of the same model one with and one without so we can get a decent opinion.

I posted the following in the heat pump thread a few weeks ago:

Here's a smaller battery Kona v Kona winter test with English subtitles - 1 with and 1 without heat pump. Same tyres and even same colour to avoid any solar gains! Typical Irish winter temperatures also.

About 5% or 12 km advantage with the heat pump when driving approx 90km/h indicated, including the initial cabin heating to 23 degrees. Test started at 5 degrees outside temperature.

A second test at 120km/h with cabin set to 19 degrees was basically a draw as heating was no longer needed. Heat loss was very low from the already warm cabin even at higher speed. Outside temp of 10 degrees for this part.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fR0mNbIccUw

26-09-2020 4:22pm

Would it not make more sense to say what charge % was left from both cars ?

pdpmur · 26-09-2020 5:25pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yeah there have been a few comparisons of similar vehicles but I've never seen a side by side of the same car. If someone could get a 2012 and 2013 leaf then that's about as good as a test as you can guess
.

If the graphs shown on various youtube videos to date for the ID.3 are to believed - e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc1ARV0s-Rw, at 6 mins 46 secs - then the heat pump with R744 (C02) refrigerant provides a clear benefit of about 50km in range over that of a car with resistive heating only for ambient temperatures below 10 degrees - i.e. the majority of the year in Ireland. The most impressive part it that the benefit extends to well below freezing.

Redlim · 26-09-2020 6:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would it not make more sense to say what charge % was left from both cars ?

At around 6:20 after the low speed test it was 58% v 57% and at 13:50 after the higher speed test it seems to be 7% v 6% when they started charging.

Seems if you can do your heating while still plugged in then the difference is quite minimal. It'd be interesting to see the difference heating from cold when out and about away from a charge point.

You'd expect most longer trips to begin at 100% having been plugged in at home. In colder weather with preheating available the advantage of a heat pump appears to be low.

But obviously the suitability of the car (battery size) to the length of journey is important here. Also, how often you'd be stretching to the range limit of the car. For an older Leaf with a longish commute this may be every day. The same commute in a M3/Niro/ID.3 etc. may not need a charge for 3 days and a heat pump may be overkill.

liamog · 26-09-2020 8:47pm

I always thought the heat pump benefit was over longer journeys, it requires less energy to maintain the heat at a given temperature.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-09-2020 9:07pm

liamog wrote: »

I always thought the heat pump benefit was over longer journeys, it requires less energy to maintain the heat at a given temperature.

I wonder how well insulated EVs are against heat loss. From what I've seen the majority of insulation is against noise, which would provide some thermal insulation as well. But with so many metal joins there's probably plenty of thermal bridges to leak heat out

I'm hoping it's getting better with each generation. Obviously they can't put triple glazed windows on a car, but it'd be nice to see more efforts being made to retain heat in winter.

From what I've seen of ICE vehicles, the insulation ranges from rubbish to non existent. However they're usually trying to get rid of heat whatebyway they can.

I'd say of vehicle insulation improves then heat pumps will be the better option, since they wouldn't have to work as hard and would operate more efficiently

the_amazing_raisin · 26-09-2020 9:16pm

Redlim wrote: »

At around 6:20 after the low speed test it was 58% v 57% and at 13:50 after the higher speed test it seems to be 7% v 6% when they started charging.

Seems if you can do your heating while still plugged in then the difference is quite minimal. It'd be interesting to see the difference heating from cold when out and about away from a charge point.

You'd expect most longer trips to begin at 100% having been plugged in at home. In colder weather with preheating available the advantage of a heat pump appears to be low.

But obviously the suitability of the car (battery size) to the length of journey is important here. Also, how often you'd be stretching to the range limit of the car. For an older Leaf with a longish commute this may be every day. The same commute in a M3/Niro/ID.3 etc. may not need a charge for 3 days and a heat pump may be overkill.

I suppose it's worth mentioning that many EVs are coming with heated seats now since they've found that they're more efficient at heating the occupants than space heating. Unfortunately the people in the back have to freeze

I think you've hit the key point around preheating. It doesn't just warm up the air in the cabin, it heats up all the surfaces and seats which would otherwise sap heat from the surrounding areas. You can tell the difference between a car that has preheated because nothing feels cold to the touch.

Because of this, you don't need as much energy to maintain heat, regardless of what you're using as a heat source. A heat pump is arguably more efficient in this case, but if the impact from resistive heating was going to be minimal anyway then you won't notice the difference

Redlim · 26-09-2020 10:30pm

liamog wrote: »

I always thought the heat pump benefit was over longer journeys, it requires less energy to maintain the heat at a given temperature.

I'm certain this would be the case if you were trying to maintain a higher cabin temp e.g. 24C as opposed to the 19C in the video I posted. Personal preference on ideal cabin temp will likely have a big say.

The wider the gap between outside and inside temperature the more useful the HP will be in comparison to a PTC heater. That's assuming that the outside temperature is optimal for HP efficiency - luckily in Ireland that seems to be most of the time!

It'll be interesting to see real world reports on VW's new system. With HPs continuing to improve they could become more attractive on longer range cars if the price is sensible.

cannco253 · 26-09-2020 10:43pm

"I suppose it's worth mentioning that many EVs are coming with heated seats now since they've found that they're more efficient at heating the occupants than space heating. Unfortunately the people in the back have to freeze"

Leaf SVE with Cold Pack has heated front/passenger and heated rear seats....first time I've seen heated seats in the back.
Preheating the car before the school run gets appreciated by all...

Redlim · 26-09-2020 11:13pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I suppose it's worth mentioning that many EVs are coming with heated seats now since they've found that they're more efficient at heating the occupants than space heating. Unfortunately the people in the back have to freeze

I think you've hit the key point around preheating. It doesn't just warm up the air in the cabin, it heats up all the surfaces and seats which would otherwise sap heat from the surrounding areas. You can tell the difference between a car that has preheated because nothing feels cold to the touch.

Because of this, you don't need as much energy to maintain heat, regardless of what you're using as a heat source. A heat pump is arguably more efficient in this case, but if the impact from resistive heating was going to be minimal anyway then you won't notice the difference

Agree with all of this. The conduction heating of the seats and steering wheel is a lot more efficient while driving. You even see that there's no impact on the GOM when in use, unlike air heating regardless of type. As an added bonus the reduced need for a higher air temp leaves the air feeling less stuffy.

Preheating on cold days is certainly important though as, like you mention, getting all surfaces up to temperature before departure will make it easier to maintain.

I recently bought a Niro and interestingly it has heated seats in the back also which is nice!

the_amazing_raisin · 27-09-2020 8:26am

cannco253 wrote: »

"I suppose it's worth mentioning that many EVs are coming with heated seats now since they've found that they're more efficient at heating the occupants than space heating. Unfortunately the people in the back have to freeze"

Leaf SVE with Cold Pack has heated front/passenger and heated rear seats....first time I've seen heated seats in the back.
Preheating the car before the school run gets appreciated by all...

Damn, I really should have gone for the cold pack when I changed to a Leaf

It looks like the ID.4 only has heated front seats. Not much of a loss to me since the kids are both in car seats and wouldn't have use for the heated seats

Looking at the Autofuhl review, it looks like there's air vents to the rear with independent temperature control. That's handy for summer to keep the kids cool, I find that the leaf has to be set to near arctic levels in the front to keep air flowing in the back

Another bonus with the ID.4, heated front windscreen. Literally the best thing ever for clearing ice and demisting the windscreen

the_amazing_raisin · 28-09-2020 1:09pm

So, anyone here gonna take the plunge on one of these?

I've a meeting with salesman on Wednesday to discuss buying one.
They didn't have finance info or product brochure sorted as of Friday, hopefully they'll be ready soon

cannco253 · 28-09-2020 1:16pm

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/lifestyle/cars/2020-vw-id4-electric-suv-gets-range-323-miles-2985649

"So far, VW has confirmed just two versions of the ID.4 which will go on-sale in Europe. Both use the larger 77kWh battery and 201bhp electric motor system, and are very highly specced.

Prices for the ID.4 1st Edition start at 49,950 euros (£45,800), with the ID.4 1st Edition Max starting at 59,950 euros (£55,000). Both prices are before Government incentives.

Though VW UK has yet to confirm its pricing policy and spec, it’s expected the high-spec launch version could start around £43,000 after the Government’s £3,000 plug-in grant.

VW is limiting both ID.4 launch versions to 27,000 units. Initial focus will be on selling those. Then VW will target sales of more variants through 2021. Once sale of the entry-level, smaller battery models start, expect prices to drop to around £35,000."

28-09-2020 2:24pm

id4 or model 3 ?

the_amazing_raisin · 28-09-2020 2:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

id4 or model 3 ?

How many bodies do you need to fit in the boot? Personally I'm going for the ID.4, it's actually cheaper than the Model 3 after grants (€44,708 vs €46,782)

28-09-2020 4:20pm

I thought the m3 was 48k ?

I don't need a big car, we have the outlander if we need more space, the m3 is really large enough, the M3 is a lot more powerful and I think this is what would swing me towards it.

I'm hoping the Autopilot issues can be resolved.

the_amazing_raisin · 28-09-2020 4:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought the m3 was 48k ?

I don't need a big car, we have the outlander if we need more space, the m3 is really large enough, the M3 is a lot more powerful and I think this is what would swing me towards it.

I'm hoping the Autopilot issues can be resolved.

Well it came up as €46k when I went through the config with no extras, maybe the VAT reduction?

What's the Autopilot issues? I haven't heard of anyone complaining

jordan191 · 28-09-2020 4:40pm

Robbed off another thread....

And after the VRT/Grant/Destination & doc fee

SR+ : € 46,782
Long Range : € 58,410
Performance : € 65,968
White is included, red €2200, other colours €1,100
Autopilot is included, fsd is €7,500

can't really compare an ID4 to a model 3, they're different cars, model 3 is more for ex petrol heads, VW is a cross over / small jeep

the_amazing_raisin · 28-09-2020 5:00pm

jordan191 wrote: »

can't really compare an ID4 to a model 3, they're different cars, model 3 is more for ex petrol heads, VW is a cross over / small jeep

It's a bit Apples and Oranges alright, but hey, it's what Mad_lad asked

I should mention the prices I got include metallic paint and delivery as well as all the dealership garbage they add on

I don't think the product brochure is out yet but there may be wiggle room to bring the price down, if there's a matt colour our there for example

28-09-2020 5:10pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Well it came up as €46k when I went through the config with no extras, maybe the VAT reduction?

What's the Autopilot issues? I haven't heard of anyone complaining

Lots of people complaining unfortunately due to unresolved issues with Phantom Braking.

28-09-2020 5:12pm

I suppose to a lot of People they take comfort knowing there is a VW dealer close enough, in my case they're 10 mins away.

ID.4 build quality will no doubt be better too but I think Tesla is pretty good now.

the_amazing_raisin · 28-09-2020 6:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose to a lot of People they take comfort knowing there is a VW dealer close enough, in my case they're 10 mins away.

ID.4 build quality will no doubt be better too but I think Tesla is pretty good now.

That's part of the reason I'm going with VW, there's a service centre 5 mins away whereas the Tesla service centre is on the other side of Dublin in one the most heavily trafficked areas in the city

Tesla build quality is getting better, but they do seem to still have quite a few quality escapes. They still seem to be making a lot of Model 3s by hand in that tent, which I'm guessing is where the issues are coming out of

I personally wouldn't consider a Tesla until the Berlin factory is up and running. I feel like it's a waste that any replacement parts for the car are coming from the US

drumm23 · 28-09-2020 11:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose to a lot of People they take comfort knowing there is a VW dealer close enough, in my case they're 10 mins away.

ID.4 build quality will no doubt be better too but I think Tesla is pretty good now.

I couldn't agree more. It's a huge advantage for VAG vs. Tesla.

29-09-2020 9:43am

But the other side of that, Tesla come to your house to fix issues but I suppose anything more serious then it has to go to Sandyford and only 1 service centre for the Republic is a bit insane.

+ the model S 5.5 seconds to 100 vs nearly 9 for the id.4 which is slower than the i3.

Fun vs .......

the_amazing_raisin · 29-09-2020 10:00am

Deleted User wrote: »

Finally, an EV my Missus might drive, she likes big cars and currently drives an Outlander.

The ID4 does look a good bit smaller though.

No doubt it will be 50K + with a half decent battery and 100 Kw + charging.

€44k gets the the 77kWh battery with 125kW charging

KCross · 29-09-2020 10:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

But the other side of that, Tesla come to your house to fix issues but I suppose anything more serious then it has to go to Sandyford and only 1 service centre for the Republic is a bit insane.

+ the model S 5.5 seconds to 100 vs nearly 9 for the id.4 which is slower than the i3.

Fun vs .......

If you want to compare the ID.4, compare it with your diesel Outlander!

Gile_na_gile · 29-09-2020 11:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

But the other side of that, Tesla come to your house to fix issues but I suppose anything more serious then it has to go to Sandyford and only 1 service centre for the Republic is a bit insane.

+ the model S 5.5 seconds to 100 vs nearly 9 for the id.4 which is slower than the i3.

Fun vs .......

I hear you. It is hard to move to slower, if more refined, acceleration when the M3 is out there with great power even in the SR+. Even my LEAF is faster at 7.9 seconds to 100, and the e+ faster still.

It is a case of apples and oranges, comfort build versus efficiency, large battery 77KwH versus what will soon be a small battery at 54.5KwH, practical hatch entry versus saloon boot. Nevertheless, I will probably look for a 192 SR+ next year, depending on employment and recession impacts of Covid. Perhaps more M3s will be on sale next year as people swap to ID4 so the timing might help.

cannco253 · 29-09-2020 11:42am

https://electrek.co/2020/09/28/vw-id-4-spotted-in-wild-in-ca-ahead-of-launch/

Mr Q · 29-09-2020 1:00pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

€44k gets the the 77kWh battery with 125kW charging

Do you then have to pay €713 for a colour, seems to be no free option. They should add it to the base price if that is the case.

The seats look much better than the ID.3

the_amazing_raisin · 29-09-2020 1:19pm

Mr Q wrote: »

Do you then have to pay €713 for a colour, seems to be no free option. They should add it to the base price if that is the case.

The seats look much better than the ID.3

I'll ask tomorrow, they may have just shown that for illustrative purposes. I'd be surprised if there isn't a base colour option

I'm guessing the seats they've shown are the 1st Max trim seats. The 1st edition has the microfleece seats without massage, but no idea if they're as nice looking or a plainer design

VW ID.4

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