Households To Produce Receipts For Waste Or Face Fines

TomOnBoard · 02-07-2018 5:06pm

dclifford wrote: »

If you can prove you dont need a waste service and don't dump anything, then yes, I am sure there could be exceptions made.

So, I'd need to prove that I didn't do any illegal dumping, rather than the Council having to prove I did??

That sound very like Guilty until proven Innocent to me..

fineso.mom · 02-07-2018 5:11pm

Graces7 wrote: »

. Informally...every time I go to the mainland i take bags of jars and tins etc We have no bins or collections. And no tipping either.

But the stuff that you cant take to the recycling banks -plastic wrapping,cartons,foil containers etc. I imagine you have little or no food waste but with the amount of packaging that comes with groceries even someone on their own generates waste. What hapoens to that stuff?

waffleman · 02-07-2018 5:20pm

Waste companies arent getting enough saps to sign up. A year ago in my area they promised prices wouldnt go up when they barcoded bins. Plenty didnt sign up because they knew it was bollox. Low and behold the bin weight at which extra charges kick in is comin down all the time now. They were doing this safe in the knowledge that these bylaws were in the post.

Its one thing to say produce your receipts and you'll be grand but when you see waste companies lying through their teeth to get peoples details and then this comes in when they dont get enough suckers signed up its just a blatant rip off.

seamus · 02-07-2018 5:22pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

They can't be that odd because I know several.

Sure you do.

Is it too much trouble to just catch the fellas out dumping?

Well, yes. It's next to impossible to catch someone who throws black bags in their boot and lashes them out somewhere up the mountains. Or travellers who cruise around taking fifty quid to fill up the back of their van and dumping it into a quarry in the dead of night.

If you have a foolproof or even effective way of catching fly-tippers, I'm sure everyone would love to hear it.

I have never heard of it being fair to prove that you're not doing something wrong. This is a complete reversal of the normal situation

There are a few examples to be fair. Ulimately it comes down to reasonable assumptions;

- Households produce waste
- At least some of this waste will be non-compostable and non-recyclable
- Therefore households have a need to dispose of this waste
- You are legally obliged to dispose of this waste in a legal manner
- Therefore a household which does not use a legal waste facility is probably using an illegal one

To be actually convicted of a crime you will have to be brought to court, whereby you can state your defence to the charge.

The bulk of this activity will be much like the TV licence where fines will be issued and most people will pay them because they're in the wrong.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 02-07-2018 5:24pm

fineso.mom wrote: »

But the stuff that you cant take to the recycling banks -plastic wrapping,cartons,foil containers etc. I imagine you have little or no food waste but with the amount of packaging that comes with groceries even someone on their own generates waste. What hapoens to that stuff?

Absolutely true. No matter how much we try we all have unrecyclable waste. We have very little - black bin only needs three empties a years and the green bin every three months - but we still have some waste. Biscuits wrappers, food packaging etc can't be recycled.

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 5:31pm

seamus wrote: »

Sure you do.

Well, yes. It's next to impossible to catch someone who throws black bags in their boot and lashes them out somewhere up the mountains. Or travellers who cruise around taking fifty quid to fill up the back of their van and dumping it into a quarry in the dead of night.

If you have a foolproof or even effective way of catching fly-tippers, I'm sure everyone would love to hear it.

There are a few examples to be fair. Ulimately it comes down to reasonable assumptions;

- Households produce waste
- At least some of this waste will be non-compostable and non-recyclable
- Therefore households have a need to dispose of this waste
- You are legally obliged to dispose of this waste in a legal manner
- Therefore a household which does not use a legal waste facility is probably using an illegal one

To be actually convicted of a crime you will have to be brought to court, whereby you can state your defence to the charge.

The bulk of this activity will be much like the TV licence where fines will be issued and most people will pay them because they're in the wrong.

Is there actually any "big government reigning down on the pesky ordinary people" measure you don't agree with? You're always the first out to defend whatever new measure they are coming out with to make life more difficult/restrictive/awkward for everyone.

Is it just that you don't like people in general and would rather be on this planet alone with a few computers and machines to provide you with your needs? I really don't understand your general contempt for those around you.

There is no one saying you have to bring non-compostable waste into your house, so why should there be anyone forcing you to prove that you're paying to get rid of it?

Fann Linn · 02-07-2018 5:33pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

This is great news for the bin companies.
A few years ago when they were trying to bring similar a sales rep from a bin company called to a elderly relative of mine. This guy is a man who lives alone and generated very little rubbish and bring his rubbish to local dump/landfill a few times a year. The sales rep told him if he didn't sign up to bin collection he'd be passing his name onto the department so he'd be prosecuted.

You don't have to use a bin company. Your local authority civic amenity centre would suffice.

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 5:34pm

Oliver Fast Thinner wrote: »

Absolutely true. No matter how much we try we all have unrecyclable waste. We have very little - black bin only needs three empties a years and the green bin every three months - but we still have some waste. Biscuits wrappers, food packaging etc can't be recycled.

You could meet the wrong inspector who determines that you're not emptying it frequently enough, then you're supposed to be the one to prove that those 3 bins are indeed the full amount of the waste you produce. How in the feck is anyone supposed to prove that?

A daft system if there ever was one.

Roger Hassenforder · 02-07-2018 5:47pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Is there actually any "big government reigning down on the pesky ordinary people" measure you don't agree with? You're always the first out to defend whatever new measure they are coming out with to make life more difficult/restrictive/awkward for everyone.

There is no one saying you have to bring non-compostable waste into your house, so why should there be anyone forcing you to prove that you're paying to get rid of it?

But there will be someone demanding you prove you dispose of waste lawfully! Its not a big brother surveillance thing, its an attempt to clamp down on flytipping and/or backyard burning. The country is full of it.

Its reasonable to assume a household generates some amount of waste, now matter how zealous a recycler/waste preventer you are. There's rarely evidence to detect those responsible for the flytipping unless we put CCTV everywhere., and who pays for it?
This is a cheaper way of doing it.

AFAIK the Council couldnt previously access waste companies customer databases - data protection etc. The new Data Protection Act clearly allows them to request such info in the public interest and prevent pollution.

Claw Hammer · 02-07-2018 5:48pm

Graces7 wrote: »

We don't have bins and nor do many deep rural places. At the last place, we bought special bags and left them at set points on set days.

Separate bags for separate things

And used the bottle banks etc

I am sure you get receipts for the bags. You can produce those if necessary.

Roger Hassenforder · 02-07-2018 5:51pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

You could meet the wrong inspector who determines that you're not emptying it frequently enough, then you're supposed to be the one to prove that those 3 bins are indeed the full amount of the waste you produce. How in the feck is anyone supposed to prove that?

A daft system if there ever was one.

I suspect if you have some engagement with some lawful waste disposal service, you'll be regarded as low priority

corks finest · 02-07-2018 5:53pm

What a crock of ****,why don't they put up covert cameras all over known dumping grounds catch, prosecute and name ,/ Shame the gougers

02-07-2018 6:19pm

kylith wrote: »

Because it’s a fuk sight cheaper, better for the environment both in production and disposal and, hold on to your vom bucket, Nox, you can use them for more than one child!

If the cost of something as basic as nappies is even entering a persons head then they can’t afford to have kids imo.

BattleCorp · 02-07-2018 6:37pm

There'll be a lot of "I put my rubbish in me Ma's/neighbours bin.

How do you prove that under GDPR regulations?

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 6:55pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

You don't have to use a bin company. Your local authority civic amenity centre would suffice.

I know this but they lied to many people in the area just to manipulate them into signing up.

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 6:57pm

I know a good few people who put their rubbish in their parents bin or the other way around.
The easiest way around this to me would be continue to do this and visit the civic amenity site maybe once or twice a year and get a receipt and say this is all the rubbish you produced in the year.

_Dara_ · 02-07-2018 7:00pm

I’m really cheered by this thread. People really seem to be taking seriously the search for sustainable and biodegradable packaging. I feel like this is something that will catch on through people power.

My sister is very into reducing waste and finding sustainable alternatives and her dedication is impressive.

_Dara_ · 02-07-2018 7:02pm

Kat1170 wrote: »

So are you saying it was a success there, or are you saying if one pays we should all pay even if it is a total failure ??

Anyone who thinks this is anything more than just another stealth tax needs their head examined. This won't stop the scumbags tossing their litter on the road side. Proper enforcement andlarge fines or jail terms are the only way. Make the polluter pay !!

How is it a stealth tax if you are already paying for some form of rubbish disposal? Just provide receipts for whatever disposal service you are currently using.

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 7:03pm

One of the best ways we found to reduce the amount of rubbish going out in our bins was to burn it in the fire!

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 7:09pm

_Dara_ wrote: »

How is it a stealth tax if you are already paying for some form of rubbish disposal? Just provide receipts for whatever disposal service you are currently using.

They are dragging people further onto the grid by shoveling them up with plastic waste they usually don't want and forcing them to prove they paid to get rid of it.

Not really a tax but they're guaranteeing a source of income to all the waste companies they're friendly enough with to grant them a license. Kind of like what they did with the car insurance companies

Poochie05 · 02-07-2018 7:11pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

One of the best ways we found to reduce the amount of rubbish going out in our bins was to burn it in the fire!

Poisoning yourselves and your neighbours in the process! A fireplace doesn't reach high enough temperatures to burn waste safely.

I would imagine the point of this legislation is to use it against fly tippers when they catch them, rather than going around checking on who has a bin or not. Make it an obligation to prove you have a waste service or dispose of your waste responsibly through bin sharing or using your council recycling centre. If you can't prove this it helps to build the case against the fly tipper .

embraer170 · 02-07-2018 7:13pm

Pay by weight in Ireland has been been a massive profit booster for waste companies, but done next to nothing for recycling rates.

I live in a country with one of the highest recycling rates in Europe but very little use of the pay by weight system. There is a fixed annual fee for the 4 separate bins we use (one can get a small reduction for using a small size non-recyclables waste bin if your household is below a certain size).

Result: everyone pays, and no waste around the countryside.

CeilingFly · 02-07-2018 7:14pm

A waste services charge of €100 should be applied to the household charge.

Then whatever company you sign up to claims this from revenue and provides you with the bins and the collection service and all you need to pay then is the cost of the waste.

In addition, litter fines for dumping need to rise substantially - €150 is no deterrent.

Spanish Eyes · 02-07-2018 7:21pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

A waste services charge of €100 should be applied to the household charge.

Then whatever company you sign up to claims this from revenue and provides you with the bins and the collection service and all you need to pay then is the cost of the waste.

In addition, litter fines for dumping need to rise substantially - €150 is no deterrent.

You mean LPT I think. But only home OWNERS pay that.

Back to the drawing board I think!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 02-07-2018 7:22pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

A waste services charge of €100 should be applied to the household charge.

Then whatever company you sign up to claims this from revenue and provides you with the bins and the collection service and all you need to pay then is the cost of the waste.

In addition, litter fines for dumping need to rise substantially - €150 is no deterrent.

Aren't many people exempt for the property tax though?

Kat1170 · 02-07-2018 7:53pm

_Dara_ wrote: »

How is it a stealth tax if you are already paying for some form of rubbish disposal? Just provide receipts for whatever disposal service you are currently using.

Its quite clear from this thread alone many people share bins, therefore no receipts. More people forced to sign up for robbing bin company's equals more tax to be used on anything but litter wardens etc. because it will be the usual politician's excuse ''we tried, its all your own faults''.

And anyone who thinks the bin company's aren't coining it in......

HERE

HERE

CeilingFly · 02-07-2018 7:58pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

You mean LPT I think. But only home OWNERS pay that.

Back to the drawing board I think!

Every home is owned by someone. Landlords would simply add it as an extra charge

Oliver Fast Thinner wrote: »

Aren't many people exempt for the property tax though?

But they still have a property id and their houses still have a charge applied and then deducted.

I'd add in a broadcast licence too - with 98% compliance and miniscule collection cost, it could be dropped by 15%

Roger Hassenforder · 02-07-2018 7:58pm

Kat1170 wrote: »

Its quite clear from this thread alone many people share bins, therefore no receipts. More people forced to sign up for robbing bin company's equals more tax to be used on anything but litter wardens etc. because it will be the usual politician's excuse ''we tried, its all your own faults''.

And anyone who thinks the bin company's aren't coining it in......

HERE

HERE

You don't have to use a bin company!

kylith · 02-07-2018 7:58pm

Kassidy Delicious Dishcloth wrote: »

If the cost of something as basic as nappies is even entering a persons head then they can’t afford to have kids imo.

Saving around €500 anually and not throwing 2,500 nappies a year into landfill is nothing to be sniffed at.

Frankly if someone gets icked out of it by a bit of poo then they shouldn't be having children; cos if something's not spewing out of one end it's generally spewing out of the other.

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 8:04pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

A waste services charge of €100 should be applied to the household charge.

Then whatever company you sign up to claims this from revenue and provides you with the bins and the collection service and all you need to pay then is the cost of the waste.

In addition, litter fines for dumping need to rise substantially - €150 is no deterrent.

So, how would it work if people went directly to a civic amenity site?

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 8:10pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

Every home is owned by someone. Landlords would simply add it as an extra charge

But they still have a property id and their houses still have a charge applied and then deducted.

I'd add in a broadcast licence too - with 98% compliance and miniscule collection cost, it could be dropped by 15%

Fecking hell don't encourage them. It's bad enough that you have to pay every year just to live in a house that you own without throwing in all these extra charges for extras that a lot of people don't want or use.

seamus · 02-07-2018 8:36pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Is there actually any "big government reigning down on the pesky ordinary people" measure you don't agree with? You're always the first out to defend whatever new measure they are coming out with to make life more difficult/restrictive/awkward for everyone.

Is it just that you don't like people in general and would rather be on this planet alone with a few computers and machines to provide you with your needs? I really don't understand your general contempt for those around you.

Right, so instead of discussing anything in my post, you decide to go off on some fantasy tangent.

Is there any government regulation you don't oppose, or are you all about sticking it to "the man" and living "off the grid"?

All this nonsense about stealth taxes and bin company conspiracies (LOL) just goes to show how utterly clueless some people are about this proposal.

You even suggest that you'd be fined if you're "not emptying it often enough", when there is nothing in the OP to suggest that would be a possibility.

Off to the conspiracy theories forum with you.

_Dara_ · 02-07-2018 8:40pm

Kat1170 wrote: »

Its quite clear from this thread alone many people share bins, therefore no receipts. More people forced to sign up for robbing bin company's equals more tax to be used on anything but litter wardens etc. because it will be the usual politician's excuse ''we tried, its all your own faults''.

And anyone who thinks the bin company's aren't coining it in......

HERE

HERE

Some posters on this have outlined how they have alternative arrangements to signing up with a company.

eviltwin · 02-07-2018 9:01pm

I share my bin with a neighbour. Neither of us produce much waste so I cancelled my bins and pay her to take my rubbish. Makes sense because I'd only put one bag a month out, it's throwing money away otherwise.

dclifford · 02-07-2018 9:06pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

I thought our legal system was based on the premise that one must prove guilt, not defend innocence?

You don't have to worry about the legal system if you do things the way they should be done. Don't do illegal stuff and you will be fine.

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 9:08pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I share my bin with a neighbour. Neither of us produce much waste so I cancelled my bins and pay her to take my rubbish. Makes sense because I'd only put one bag a month out, it's throwing money away otherwise.

I know single people and they barely generate a bin bag of rubbish/recycling a month.

dclifford · 02-07-2018 9:10pm

TomOnBoard wrote: »

So, I'd need to prove that I didn't do any illegal dumping, rather than the Council having to prove I did??

That sound very like Guilty until proven Innocent to me..

How do you dispose of waste at the moment? If it is done legally then you have nothing to be guilty about.

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 9:13pm

seamus wrote: »

Right, so instead of discussing anything in my post, you decide to go off on some fantasy tangent.

Is there any government regulation you don't oppose, or are you all about sticking it to "the man" and living "off the grid"?

All this nonsense about stealth taxes and bin company conspiracies (LOL) just goes to show how utterly clueless some people are about this proposal.

You even suggest that you'd be fined if you're "not emptying it often enough", when there is nothing in the OP to suggest that would be a possibility.

Off to the conspiracy theories forum with you.

Don't mind the arrogance and this auld craic with trying to make a conspiracy theorist out of me.

The bag tax was a great one, they should have expanded it to other plastic packaging but that would have put a stop to the great moneyspinner that is getting people to pay for packaging they don't want and paying again to have it sent to China.

If you have only one receipt from a year ago from the civic amenity site or some other place you could find yourself at the mercy of some inspector dude. Of course the end result of this thing will be people signing up to bin collection just in case and not using it.

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 9:14pm

dclifford wrote: »

How do you dispose of waste at the moment? If it is done legally then you have nothing to be guilty about.

Unless you lose the receipt or didn't get any or didn't generate any waste.

I really don't know why people support this kind of tripe. Do we not have enough mandatory taxes and charges?

dclifford · 02-07-2018 9:22pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I know a good few people who put their rubbish in their parents bin or the other way around.
The easiest way around this to me would be continue to do this and visit the civic amenity site maybe once or twice a year and get a receipt and say this is all the rubbish you produced in the year.

I took a good bulk of my parents rubbish when they were pay by weight and I wasn't. We still paid for bin charges in each household.
Then there are others who pay nothing and deposit their rubbish in other paid bins in the early hours. Or the ones who go for an early walk and dump in a park, laneway or field.
Guess who I would rather see get a knock on the door? It is not the one who had a small yearly standing charge. It is the one who had no proof of any legal waste disposal.

dclifford · 02-07-2018 9:27pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

So, how would it work if people went directly to a civic amenity site?

Get a receipt. I have used them for large bulk waste. Think i still have the receipts somewhere.

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 9:31pm

dclifford wrote: »

Get a receipt. I have used them for large bulk waste. Think i still have the receipts somewhere.

That was refereed to what that person was talking about adding €100 to the property tax or something. I just wouldn't see that system working.

dclifford · 02-07-2018 9:31pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I share my bin with a neighbour. Neither of us produce much waste so I cancelled my bins and pay her to take my rubbish. Makes sense because I'd only put one bag a month out, it's throwing money away otherwise.

Get her to write you a receipt or show proof of transfer. Shouldn't be too difficult.

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 9:35pm

dclifford wrote: »

Get her to write you a receipt or show proof of transfer. Shouldn't be too difficult.

I couldn't see this working either. It would overly manipulated. Everybody would just transfer a few years here and there to cover themselves.

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 9:43pm

I really doubt that anyone who is dumping stuff by the side of the road will find it terribly hard to come up with a receipt for having used some legal dumping facility for some small amount of rubbish at some stage during the past. So it's likely they won't even catch the people they're hoping to catch.

Dakota Dan · 02-07-2018 9:45pm

listermint wrote: »

I'm sorry lads but none of yous must live beside literally any picturesque area in the country where scumbags continually fly tip. It's a weekly occurrence no matter how much it's cleaned some gob****es comes along and throws an old bath out or a solitary TV or the usually garden waste mixed with yesterday's TV dinner wrapping.

If people have to produce receipts then so be it. Everyone produces waste everyone so everyone has traceability that can be receipts or a monthly invoice or like some in here a friendly assistance of parents it's all still traceable.

So persistent dumpers will have no way out? All they need do is bring a small fraction of their rubbish to a bring site get their receipt and keep dumping the rest. Wouldn't it make more sense to force suppliers to stop wrapping everything in plastic?

dhaughton99 · 02-07-2018 9:57pm

Anytime I have brought evidence of dumping to the local litter warden, I'm told that they don't have the power to look up addresses. I find him to be the laziest of people. I met him one time to discuss an issue and he bragged about putting the stuff he found onto Adverts to sell. Showed me a lamp he had just found and was putting it online to sell. Whats needed is proper policing and large fines, not this half arsed approach.

freshpopcorn · 02-07-2018 10:05pm

dhaughton99 wrote: »

Anytime I have brought evidence of dumping to the local litter warden, I'm told that they don't have the power to look up addresses. I find him to be the laziest of people. I met him one time to discuss an issue and he bragged about putting the stuff he found onto Adverts to sell. Showed me a lamp he had just found and was putting it online to sell. Whats needed is proper policing and large fines, not this half arsed approach.

We were told by the council not to touch the rubbish because if you did it would stop them being able to prosecute the person!

Ubbquittious · 02-07-2018 10:06pm

dhaughton99 wrote: »

Anytime I have brought evidence of dumping to the local litter warden, I'm told that they don't have the power to look up addresses. I find him to be the laziest of people. I met him one time to discuss an issue and he bragged about putting the stuff he found onto Adverts to sell. Showed me a lamp he had just found and was putting it online to sell. Whats needed is proper policing and large fines, not this half arsed approach.

I'd say a lot of that goes on. I met a right bollix of a fella at one of those civic amenity sites not too long ago who had a go at me forlooking at a powersupply in the e-waste section.

No way would they let anyone take stuff out of there. Wouldn't give a reason either but tis obvious that they're making a side earner out of that. The same sack of sh1t started mouthing off to me one day because I arrived a bit too late for his liking and he wanted to go home

AlekSmart · 02-07-2018 10:23pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

So, how would it work if people went directly to a civic amenity site?

How does one access the "Civic Amenity" site if not a Car owner..?

My local "Dump" at Ballymount is a huge improvement on what went before,in the likes of Dunsink,Ballyogan and Friarstown,BUT the charges are exorbitant for private citizens...It is as if the Operator does NOT want the ordinary folks bringing waste to the site....?

Neither the State,or it's representative Local Authorities appear to have any role other than a facilitator for the business models of a select few Waste "Management" Companies.....methinks a case for Nationalization in the National Interest ??

This fixation has allowed by Government and Contracted Companies to totally avoid methods which provenly work elsewhere in Europe....

https://earth911.com/business-policy/recycling-in-germany/

The concept in which private industries are responsible for eliminating waste — and for covering the costs — is described as the ‘polluter pays’ principle. In other words, those who create the waste are responsible for cleaning up the mess. The U.S. has a ‘consumer pays’ policy, in which waste management is funded by taxpaying citizens.” —Marie Look, writer of “Trash Planet: Germany”

Berlin or Boston...right ?

I'd say Marie would be quickly turned back at our hard border should she turn up looking to inspect our "cosy little arrangements" here in Ireland ?

Households To Produce Receipts For Waste Or Face Fines

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