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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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    #4712
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    You show me the unionist MP who has a building named after a loyalist killer from the recent conflict and I will show you an office that not one unionist would walk through the door of. That’s what we unionists find hard to reconcile

    The North is full of monuments to state forces and state aided forces who murdered members of my community, Downcow.

    I don't include specific memorials to those killed in WWI and WWII like the one in Castlewellan that Hazzard points to, but rather for example the Lisburn UDR memorial (or the one that Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council voted to erect last year to mark the 50th anniversary of their foundation), or indeed the statue of Carson at Stormont.

    What about the Loyalist Memorial Garden in Bangor? Funded by the government and dedicated to the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando? We could go back and forth all day pointing at memorials that I find distasteful from your community, and you could do the same back the other way.

    Your constant attempts to paint Unionism as taking the high ground and being the constantly put upon community just doesn't match the unpleasant, complex reality of the situation.


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    #4713
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,870 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    The North is full of monuments to state forces and state aided forces who murdered members of my community, Downcow.

    I don't include specific memorials to those killed in WWI and WWII like the one in Castlewellan that Hazzard points to, but rather for example the Lisburn UDR memorial (or the one that Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council voted to erect last year to mark the 50th anniversary of their foundation), or indeed the statue of Carson at Stormont.

    What about the Loyalist Memorial Garden in Bangor? Funded by the government and dedicated to the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando? We could go back and forth all day pointing at memorials that I find distasteful from your community, and you could do the same back the other way.

    Your constant attempts to paint Unionism as taking the high ground and being the constantly put upon community just doesn't match the unpleasant, complex reality of the situation.

    This is the kind of stuff I was talking about.

    Ignored completely by Jack and downcow when you mention it.

    It's all about building a 'victimhood' mentality with these guys...'everyone is agin the poor wee Unionists'.


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    #4714
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    Thanks Francie. First clear answer I ever got of you. Keep it up. It’s refreshing
    Although I think that’s a little naive and inconsiderate to minorities. I certainly would go into one that had racist our homophobic trappings above the door. But every mans different

    Who's a minority now?


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    #4715
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »
    A good point well made. And encapsulates in a nutshell why the republican movement is still the heart of the problem in NI. It has not changed and still regards common murderers as not only decent sorts, but heroes to be admired. Unionists as a general rule, have much better consigned the troubles and terrorists to the past. While the guns might be quiet, republicans are still stuck in a conflict mindset.
    Are you for real?

    Even the most ardent partitionist hasn't such a myopic view.

    Absolute state of that post.


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    #4716
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    No he didn't. I would suggest, yet again, that you start to read posts and heed what's there.



    What do you mean "differs"?




    Oh really? Well best you tell Mr Hazzard about your problems with abstentionism and the naming of an office.

    An office I might add, that has been named that way for over a quarter of a century!

    Only a problem now is it that SF have an MP?



    You've a wile queer way of "debating". You make a statement, get hung on it. Refuse to acknowledge the issue at hand. Accuse others of avoiding answers to questions that were never asked. Make out we're being unreasonable. Then you ask a question that conveniently moves the "debate" on meaning you get to avoid answering any questions.

    Rinse and repeat.



    I dunno. It would be odd for a Unionist MP to stand for election in Dublin 8. But I can assure you, we would inform said MP of the offensive nature of naming their building after, I dunno, Cromwell or Craig or Trevelyan or whoever.

    ---

    But back to what I was saying earlier, your issue isn't the MP, nor the abstentionist policy but the name of a building.

    So, rather then go there you could post a letter? I wouldn't be off-the-mark in thinking that you're building barriers just to make a point. And failing at that.
    Haha. Chris hazards constituency is named after people who murdered his constituents. He flies a Irish tricolour and Palestinian flag over the door. He puts items in the window eulogising local murderers. He refuses to condemn the murder of Protestant constituents but has no problem condemning the murder of catholic constituents - and I am putting up barriers. Haha


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    #4717
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    Haha. Chris hazards constituency is named after people who murdered his constituents. He flies a Irish tricolour and Palestinian flag over the door. He puts items in the window eulogising local murderers. He refuses to condemn the murder of Protestant constituents but has no problem condemning the murder of catholic constituents - and I am putting up barriers. Haha

    Again I ask you, what's stopping you attending a constituency clinic?


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    #4718
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    The North is full of monuments to state forces and state aided forces who murdered members of my community, Downcow.

    I don't include specific memorials to those killed in WWI and WWII like the one in Castlewellan that Hazzard points to, but rather for example the Lisburn UDR memorial (or the one that Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council voted to erect last year to mark the 50th anniversary of their foundation), or indeed the statue of Carson at Stormont.

    What about the Loyalist Memorial Garden in Bangor? Funded by the government and dedicated to the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando? We could go back and forth all day pointing at memorials that I find distasteful from your community, and you could do the same back the other way.

    Your constant attempts to paint Unionism as taking the high ground and being the constantly put upon community just doesn't match the unpleasant, complex reality of the situation.

    No Fionn. Wrong again.
    You are correct that we have different perceptions of you the bad boys were etc etc. And we could bandy stuff about all day about that.

    This discussion was about my local MP (and I didn’t raise it). He is in a building named after people who murdered the brothers and fathers of people currently living in his constituency.

    So let’s see can we bandy that about. I look forward to you providing us with an equivalent.


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    #4719
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,870 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Haha. Chris hazards constituency is named after people who murdered his constituents. He flies a Irish tricolour and Palestinian flag over the door. He puts items in the window eulogising local murderers. He refuses to condemn the murder of Protestant constituents but has no problem condemning the murder of catholic constituents - and I am putting up barriers. Haha

    And nationalists have to pass memorials and tributes to those who killed their community members too. The trappings are everywhere if you open your eyes.

    I asked this before and you ran away...what is it you want? Do you want to bar everybody from remembering their dead or just one's you find objectionable.


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    #4720
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Again I ask you, what's stopping you attending a constituency clinic?

    Bonnie would you ask the same of a person who’s friend was abused if the MP had a named his office after his abuser?
    It’s like asking the Bloody Sunday families to ask the parachute regiment to help them fill in their benifits form


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    #4721
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And nationalists have to pass memorials and tributes to those who killed their community members too. The trappings are everywhere if you open your eyes.

    I asked this before and you ran away...what is it you want? Do you want to bar everybody from remembering their dead or just one's you find objectionable.

    Not at all Francie. I see memorials all over the place.
    I would like my MP to at least be honest and say “I am sectarian and I admire the sectarian murder of many of my Protestant constituents”


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    #4722
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,870 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Not at all Francie. I see memorials all over the place.
    I would like my MP to at least be honest and say “I am sectarian and I admire the sectarian murder of many of my Protestant constituents”


    Sure you could ask him to dance around in a pink tutu as well.

    Conflict/war is over downcow.


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    #4723
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    I do know it has been named as such for as long as I can remember, definitely pre GFA, so he would've been a small child at best, so my point about personally blaming him for it still stands..

    Ok. So definitely not pre gfa. Bonnie says a quarter of a century.
    I don’t know when this building was named after the terrorists but I can tell you it was not pre-2010.
    So maybe you and Bonnie will retract what you have said (well I know bonnie won’t)
    This also make Chris hazard the absolute liar that we know he is.


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    #4724
    lurleen lumpkin
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭lurleen lumpkin


    downcow wrote: »
    It’s like asking the Bloody Sunday families to ask the parachute regiment to help them fill in their benifits form

    You're definitely trolling, no doubt about it now.

    Can everyone just ignore this person's posts?


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    #4725
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    No Fionn. Wrong again.
    You are correct that we have different perceptions of you the bad boys were etc etc. And we could bandy stuff about all day about that.

    This discussion was about my local MP (and I didn’t raise it). He is in a building named after people who murdered the brothers and fathers of people currently living in his constituency.

    So let’s see can we bandy that about. I look forward to you providing us with an equivalent.

    How do you see this as different to a statue of Carson at Stormont, Downcow? How do you see it as different to a government funded memorial garden to the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando.

    I'm not trying to avoid the question here, I'm genuinely trying to work out how you can think a sign is so much worse that it is incomparable to a statue for example.

    What weird perceived moral high ground are you reaching for here? A Shinner operates from an office named after people you find distasteful, fair enough, you can say that reflects poorly on the Nationalist community in the area if you want. You're suggesting that this is something that ordinary Unionists would never approve of.....yet hand wave away the fact that the Unionist community have a memorial garden funded by the government to remember the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando. How is this better?!


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    #4726
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    lurleen lumpkin wrote: »
    You're definitely trolling, no doubt about it now.

    Can everyone just ignore this person's posts?

    Lurleen
    I live in a town that has been devastated by sectarian murder and intimidation )almost all) by the Ira
    I have a local MP who bases himself in the town and many posters on here think it is appropriate that his office is named after those who murdered and intimidated my community.
    You should be applauding me for recognising that a similar attitude a by a unionist MP towards you community’s dead and injured would be disgraceful


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    #4727
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    Ok. So definitely not pre gfa. Bonnie says a quarter of a century.
    I don’t know when this building was named after the terrorists but I can tell you it was not pre-2010.
    So maybe you and Bonnie will retract what you have said (well I know bonnie won’t)
    This also make Chris hazard the absolute liar that we know he is.

    I've provided sources for my assertion, Downcow. You haven't. I've said I'm not local and open to retracting my statement should I be mistaken.....you've just asserted that you're correct and provided nothing to demonstrate this.

    You can tell me? You weren't sure of the timeline an hour ago, but just keep repeating your assertion with increasing confidence but no increased evidence of it.


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    #4728
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    How do you see this as different to a statue of Carson at Stormont, Downcow? How do you see it as different to a government funded memorial garden to the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando.

    I'm not trying to avoid the question here, I'm genuinely trying to work out how you can think a sign is so much worse that it is incomparable to a statu e for example.

    What weird perceived moral high ground are you reaching for here? A Shinner operates from an office named after people you find distasteful, fair enough, you can say that reflects poorly on the Nationalist community in the area if you want. You're suggesting that this is something that ordinary Unionists would never approve of.....yet hand wave away the fact that the Unionist community have a memorial garden funded by the government to remember the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando. How is this better?!

    Fair question.
    I see clear blue water.
    Carson was 100 years ago so I think that’s very different.
    I understand what you are saying about memorials to Uvf etc and I genuinely can see why that would be painful.

    This is completely on another level. This is my MP naming his office after the individuals who drove my community out of the town becuase they were Protestant. Not to mention the murder and indeed murder of Catholics. There was a catholic taken away and tortured and murdered by these people and that happened much closer to Chris hazards office than the magorian shooting he says took place beside it. That man was left in a bog in Dundalk and not discovered for years. How do you think that catholic family feels about the ira men being above that office door. Do you think they would use the office.


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    #4729
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,870 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    How do you see this as different to a statue of Carson at Stormont, Downcow? How do you see it as different to a government funded memorial garden to the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando.

    I'm not trying to avoid the question here, I'm genuinely trying to work out how you can think a sign is so much worse that it is incomparable to a statue for example.

    What weird perceived moral high ground are you reaching for here? A Shinner operates from an office named after people you find distasteful, fair enough, you can say that reflects poorly on the Nationalist community in the area if you want. You're suggesting that this is something that ordinary Unionists would never approve of.....yet hand wave away the fact that the Unionist community have a memorial garden funded by the government to remember the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando. How is this better?!

    It is all done for the reason I said way back when downcow was just a while on the forum. There is a concerted effort by belligerent Unionists to portray themselves as 'victims'. You can hear it from Arlene down through Peter Robinson to downcow.
    It's 'them' against everyone - the 'RA, 'Dublin, The EU, Lundies, Boris, Theresa etc etc etc.
    Never look in the mirror is the mantra.


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    #4730
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    I've provided sources for my assertion, Downcow. You haven't. I've said I'm not local and open to retracting my statement should I be mistaken.....you've just asserted that you're correct and provided nothing to demonstrate this.

    You can tell me? You weren't sure of the timeline an hour ago, but just keep repeating your assertion with increasing confidence but no increased evidence of it.

    I appreciate you may retract it but people like Bonnie won’t. (Or the likes of Chris hazard who knows he was telling lies)

    He is a photo of the former building little innocent Sinn Fein were using that just happened to also be named after the terrorists. Photo taken in dec 2009. So the shinners hadn’t even moved into the other building by then.
    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sinn_Fein_Advice_Centre,_Castlewellan,_December_2009.JPG


  • Options
    #4731
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    Fair question.
    I see clear blue water.
    Carson was 100 years ago so I think that’s very different.
    I understand what you are saying about memorials to Uvf etc and I genuinely can see why that would be painful.

    This is completely on another level. This is my MP naming his office after the individuals who drove my community out of the town becuase they were Protestant. Not to mention the murder and indeed murder of Catholics. There was a catholic taken away and tortured and murdered by these people and that happened much closer to Chris hazards office than the magorian shooting he says took place beside it. That man was left in a bog in Dundalk and not discovered for years. How do you think that catholic family feels about the ira men being above that office door. Do you think they would use the office.

    You seem to be under the impression that I'm defending the SF office, Downcow. I'm not; you'll recall my first comment on the topic was one stating that I fully understand your discomfort and would not attend the constituency office should the tables be turned.

    What I'm calling out is your return to your victim complex and trying to create a false moral high ground for Unionism by suggesting that memorials are somehow unique to the Nationalist community, or that naming an office after two individuals is a poorer reflection on my community than having a general Loyalist Paramilitary memorial garden is on yours.

    I'm of the opinion that neither reflect particularly well on the communities, but I don't think we're ever going to live in a society that doesn't have memorials. You seem to be focused on pointing it out on one side and turning a blind eye on the other.


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    #4732
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It is all done for the reason I said way back when downcow was just a while on the forum. There is a concerted effort by belligerent Unionists to portray themselves as 'victims'. You can hear it from Arlene down through Peter Robinson to downcow.
    It's 'them' against everyone - the 'RA, 'Dublin, The EU, Lundies, Boris, Theresa etc etc etc.
    Never look in the mirror is the mantra.
    There were plenty of victims in ni. Victims of the ira, Uvf, etc and also victims of renegade british forces and police


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    #4733
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,870 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I appreciate you may retract it but people like Bonnie won’t. (Or the likes of Chris hazard who knows he was telling lies)

    He is a photo of the former building little innocent Sinn Fein were using that just happened to also be named after the terrorists. Photo taken in dec 2009. So the shinners hadn’t even moved into the other building by then.
    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sinn_Fein_Advice_Centre,_Castlewellan,_December_2009.JPG

    The 'advice centre' was named that. The constituency office is in the AC.
    The Advice Centre would be there whether there is a SF MP or not.


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    #4734
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,870 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    There were plenty of victims in ni. Victims of the ira, Uvf, etc and also victims of renegade british forces and police


    I am not talking about actual victims, I am talking about you, portraying yourself and Unionism as 'victims' now.


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    #4735
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    I appreciate you may retract it but people like Bonnie won’t. (Or the likes of Chris hazard who knows he was telling lies)

    He is a photo of the former building little innocent Sinn Fein were using that just happened to also be named after the terrorists. Photo taken in dec 2009. So the shinners hadn’t even moved into the other building by then.
    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sinn_Fein_Advice_Centre,_Castlewellan,_December_2009.JPG

    So we have established that the convention of naming the local SF advice centre after McNulty and Magorrian predates Chris Hazzard's tenure, yes?

    As I said, I'm not a local and happy to acknowledge that I wasn't aware of a change of building, but rather was just aware that the local SF advice centre was named after those two.

    You accuse others of dancing on the head of a pin often enough, the point stands that in your constituency, the local SF advice centre has been named after those two since long before Hazzard was in the frame, and so it would be ridiculous to argue that he is personally responsible for that name.


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    #4736
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    You seem to be under the impression that I'm defending the SF office, Downcow. I'm not; you'll recall my first comment on the topic was one stating that I fully understand your discomfort and would not attend the constituency office should the tables be turned.

    What I'm calling out is your return to your victim complex and trying to create a false moral high ground for Unionism by suggesting that memorials are somehow unique to the Nationalist community, or that naming an office after two individuals is a poorer reflection on my community than having a general Loyalist Paramilitary memorial garden is on yours.

    I'm of the opinion that neither reflect particularly well on the communities, but I don't think we're ever going to live in a society that doesn't have memorials. You seem to be focused on pointing it out on one side and turning a blind eye on the other.
    Disagree again Fionn.
    Can you help me reconcile something.
    I agree with lots of what you say. And yes there are memorials that I am not fond of in my community.
    What gets unionists is eg Chris hazard. I’ll not go over it again, but he is partisan when it comes to terrorism. One is to be admired and the other disposed. If a unionist MP eulogised any individual local terrorists like hazard does then they would not stand a chance of election. Yet nationalists seem to have no difficulty voting for a terrorist supporting liar like hazard (and I have clearly demonstrated these accusations so not made lightly)


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    #4737
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    So we have established that the convention of naming the local SF advice centre after McNulty and Magorrian predates Chris Hazzard's tenure, yes?

    As I said, I'm not a local and happy to acknowledge that I wasn't aware of a change of building, but rather was just aware that the local SF advice centre was named after those two.

    You accuse others of dancing on the head of a pin often enough, the point stands that in your constituency, the local SF advice centre has been named after those two since long before Hazzard was in the frame, and so it would be ridiculous to argue that he is personally responsible for that name.

    Fionn. That’s just rediculous. And I think well you know it.


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    #4738
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    Bonnie would you ask the same of a person who’s friend was abused if the MP had a named his office after his abuser?
    It’s like asking the Bloody Sunday families to ask the parachute regiment to help them fill in their benifits form

    Stop answering questions with questions.

    Just answer the question straight up. Your refusal to do so speaks volumes

    What's stopping you attending your local MPs constituency office to make representations?


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    #4739
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    So we have established that the convention of naming the local SF advice centre after McNulty and Magorrian predates Chris Hazzard's tenure, yes?

    As I said, I'm not a local and happy to acknowledge that I wasn't aware of a change of building, but rather was just aware that the local SF advice centre was named after those two.

    You accuse others of dancing on the head of a pin often enough, the point stands that in your constituency, the local SF advice centre has been named after those two since long before Hazzard was in the frame, and so it would be ridiculous to argue that he is personally responsible for that name.

    Another wee bit of local information. My community suffered a massive sectarian onslaught from the ira in 73/74 like no other period in our history. When Magorrian was shot by army while on active service it was like flicking a switch. The sectarian campaigned continued but probably at 20% of the intensity as when Magorrian was operating. A nice name for our MPs office, don’t you think?


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    #4740
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,074 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Stop answering questions with questions.

    Just answer the question straight up. Your refusal to do so speaks volumes

    What's stopping you attending your local MPs constituency office to make representations?

    Simple. He supports the sectarian campaign by the Ira against my local community. I would drink piss before I would ask him for a glass of water


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    #4741
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    Ok. So definitely not pre gfa. Bonnie says a quarter of a century.
    I don’t know when this building was named after the terrorists but I can tell you it was not pre-2010.
    So maybe you and Bonnie will retract what you have said (well I know bonnie won’t)
    This also make Chris hazard the absolute liar that we know he is.

    Retract what? That the naming of the centre predates Hazzard's election?

    You're flailing now downcow.

    Will the other posters note how we've now moved onto this as the main subject of discussion. Yet again DC and his belligerence drags us all away.

    Please answer what is being asked of you; why won't you attend your local MPs office to make representations to him?


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