How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

markodaly

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Exactly. And everyone knows that.
Bombs and bullets might be silenced, because the sought end is considered, at the moment, more likely to be achieved by other means. It does not mean that the mindset, the goal, and the acceptability of the violent route if that were considered more effective, have changed.
It is in this regard, that republicanism has not fundamentally changed since the GFA. If anything, SF presenting itself as a normal political party is a more insidious deceit on the people on the island that was the overt violence. True maturity from SF, in the last 20 years, would have had it abandon all claims to a UI, and work within Northern Ireland, will all parties, for the betterment of the lives of all its 1.5M citizens. Abd closed up shop in the republic.
But such a visionary move was beyond SF/IRA.

I somewhat agree.

It all ties back to the Rising and its myths that came out of it.

Violence and its use of it is legitimised because of it. Untold damage was done to the island because of the rising. If we went down the democratic Home Rule path and not the "let's kill people for a political aim" path, the relationship between North and South, between Ireland and GB would be a lot different today. Yet, here we are still talking about all these decades if not 100 years later, and for what?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I somewhat agree.

It all ties back to the Rising and its myths that came out of it.

Violence and its use of it is legitimised because of it. Untold damage was done to the island because of the rising. If we went down the democratic Home Rule path and not the "let's kill people for a political aim" path, the relationship between North and South, between Ireland and GB would be a lot different today. Yet, here we are still talking about all these decades if not 100 years later, and for what?

John Bruton stuff. Far enough.

Kermit.de.frog

From the Torygraph, no less. With friends like this...

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

John Bruton stuff. Far enough.

Yea, easy to poke fun at it, but I think history has shown the past 100 years not kind to violent Irish Republicanism and all the went with it.

Id rather boring John Bruton, then thousands of dead people. Others may just like the rush of blood of war and murder.

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

From the Torygraph, no less. With friends like this...

The tide turning in the UK will inform the SoS's decision as much as anything. If the Tory's can get rid without criticism at home, they'll do it in a heartbeat.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Yea, easy to poke fun at it, but I think history has shown the past 100 years not kind to violent Irish Republicanism and all the went with it.

Id rather boring John Bruton, then thousands of dead people. Others may just like the rush of blood of war and murder.

You've stated your opinion. Fair enough.

Natterjack from Kerry

markodaly wrote: »

Yea, easy to poke fun at it, but I think history has shown the past 100 years not kind to violent Irish Republicanism and all the went with it.

Id rather boring John Bruton, then thousands of dead people. Others may just like the rush of blood of war and murder.

I think when you have sold your soul to the devil and gone down the murderers route, mentally, there is no way to reverse that. Conceding you were wrong brings with it the clear baggage that you are therefore a despicable murder and a bad person. Thats very hard for any person to do. Still means the rest of us recognise them as the vile terrorists they are though.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Yea, easy to poke fun at it, but I think history has shown the past 100 years not kind to violent Irish Republicanism and all the went with it.

Id rather boring John Bruton, then thousands of dead people. Others may just like the rush of blood of war and murder.

irish republicanism is circa 220 to 230 years old....we have relatives,whom were hung for particpating in the 1798 rebellion

An woman who died aged 101 in 1920s lived in a field i rent off a cousin,her father sheltered fenians on.the run in 1800s, ira and cumann na mon members,(some also related to my mother) fleeing an attack on brits during war of independance,hid guns in the scrub at end of that field

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

I think when you have sold your soul to the devil and gone down the murderers route, mentally, there is no way to reverse that. Conceding you were wrong brings with it the clear baggage that you are therefore a despicable murder and a bad person. Thats very hard for any person to do. Still means the rest of us recognise them as the vile terrorists they are though.

They are our neighbours Jack, stop talking about Britain like that, they've given up the auld colonialism, allegedly.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A reduction but not because we changed the voting system to set up a sectarian bigoted state.

You have been shown all the data and the reasons. It's your problem if you want to continue to lie. And it is others problem if they want to believe you.

You were much more strategic and effective than us. All the things we done supported the increase in the minority. We should have taken advice off you guys

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You were much more strategic and effective than us. All the things we done supported the increase in the minority. We should have taken advice off you guys

The minority in the north didn't lie down downcow. That is what happened.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You were much more strategic and effective than us. All the things we done supported the increase in the minority. We should have taken advice off you guys

The Northern Ireland state was created as a Protestant state. Carson was begging for protestants to move to it so as to secure as much a majority as possible. Carson was born in Dublin - do you think he was forced to leave?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

The Northern Ireland state was created as a Protestant state. Carson was begging for protestants to move to it so as to secure as much a majority as possible. Carson was born in Dublin - do you think he was forced to leave?

And what was the quote that led up to that about a catholic country for a catholic people ?
Spin it any way you wish, you guys were much more effective at neutering the minority, don’t you think?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

And what was the quote that led up to that about a catholic country for a catholic people ?
Spin it any way you wish, you guys were much more effective at neutering the minority, don’t you think?

See above, Downcow. So much for your reflection last night.

This exaggerated and totally ridiculous comparison is clearly a really dodgy attempt to justify the treatment of Nationalists in the North.

Natterjack from Kerry

downcow wrote: »

And what was the quote that led up to that about a catholic country for a catholic people ?
Spin it any way you wish, you guys were much more effective at neutering the minority, don’t you think?

I would concede that. Certainly the republic was much more sectarian in its true sense, structuring the country for one community exclusively. Which also had the effect of further alienating and distancing northern unionism.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

And what was the quote that led up to that about a catholic country for a catholic people ?
Spin it any way you wish, you guys were much more effective at neutering the minority, don’t you think?

We didn't change the voting system, gerrymander constituencies to ensure power stayed in the hands of religiously bigoted suprematists. We has Protestants all the way up through society and business, right up to president.

Try again downcow

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's extraordinary that there are people who equate a UI to a takeover by the 'RA and the Shinners.

Partitionist scaremongering isn't very high quality.

Quality and consistency of argument have never been too high tbf. No reason for them to change now.

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

Yea, easy to poke fun at it, but I think history has shown the past 100 years not kind to violent Irish Republicanism and all the went with it.

Id rather boring John Bruton, then thousands of dead people. Others may just like the rush of blood of war and murder.

Any thoughts on the security apparatus of the state systematically killing their own citizens or is that also "something something Ra"?

BonnieSituation

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

I would concede that. Certainly the republic was much more sectarian in its true sense, structuring the country for one community exclusively. Which also had the effect of further alienating and distancing northern unionism.

That's literally lies.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We didn't change the voting system, gerrymander constituencies to ensure power stayed in the hands of religiously bigoted suprematists. We has Protestants all the way up through society and business, right up to president.

Try again downcow

Apparently the Free State was more sectarian...

Good auld Douglas Hyde, TK Whitaker, Countess Markievicz, Erskine Childers and so on... Those well known papists...

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We didn't change the voting system, gerrymander constituencies to ensure power stayed in the hands of religiously bigoted suprematists. We has Protestants all the way up through society and business, right up to president.

Try again downcow

Francie. I have never denied that this was a unionist controlled state until the early 70s for the benifit of unionists. It’s not me who’s in denial.

You continue to turn to the wealthy anglicans as evidence that the ordinary Presbyterians were not discriminated against.
My father and all his 11 siblings left Donegal in the 50s and was very clear they had it hard in the catholic state and no real future for them.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I have never denied that this was a unionist controlled state until the early 70s for the Benidorm of unionists. It’s not me who’s in denial.

You continue to turn to the wealthy anglicans as evidence that the ordinary Presbyterians were not discriminated against.
My father and all his 11 siblings left Donegal in the 50s and was very clear they had it hard in the catholic state and no real future for them.

Show the data downcow...because you were shown data before that completely rubbishes your nonsense.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I have never denied that this was a unionist controlled state until the early 70s for the Benidorm of unionists. It’s not me who’s in denial.

You continue to turn to the wealthy anglicans as evidence that the ordinary Presbyterians were not discriminated against.
My father and all his 11 siblings left Donegal in the 50s and was very clear they had it hard in the catholic state and no real future for them.

fwiw.....that would be identical for most poor familes in the free state.....population dipped as low as 2.8 million in 1961

There was at independance 17 farms on a 3 mile strech of road near my dad homeplace and nearest bigger road.......theres 2 there now as people adbandoned them/emigrated/died off

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Show the data downcow...because you were shown data before that completely rubbishes your nonsense.

Here’s a few I just copied and pasted

Ne Temere decree requiring the children of mixed religious marriages be brought up Roman Catholic

• The Church of Ireland Gazette also remarks on the "forced exodus of large numbers" during the period of the early 1920s known as the Troubles.[2]

• The Catholic ethos of the Free State.[7]

• Symbols of British influence were seen as an integral part of the Protestant tradition during the interwar period between World War I and II, however the Free State's intent on removing them was viewed by southern Protestants as sectarian.[8]

• The introduction of a "Gaelicisation" policy.[8][9] The compulsory teaching of the Irish language in schools saw some Protestant parents send their children to school in the United Kingdom.[8] It also meant that Irish was compulsory for roles in the civil service,[8][9] which resulted in "the continuing emigration of young Protestants in search of jobs", with the requirement seen as "disguised discrimination" by some.[8] However, there were other Protestants who were happy to embrace the Irish language, such as Douglas Hyde who was made the first President of the Republic of Ireland partly because of his efforts to revive the Irish language.

• The influence of the Catholic Church on government policy, such as: the banning of divorce and contraception; censorship of films and books; and in the education system.[9] This reached its peak with the 1937 constitution giving the Catholic Church "special position" in the state.[9]

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Show the data downcow...because you were shown data before that completely rubbishes your nonsense.

Here’s more
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/revealed-why-40000-protestants-fled-ireland-four-years-1126728%3famp

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

fwiw.....that would be identical for most poor familes in the free state.....population dipped as low as 2.8 million in 1961

There was at independance 17 farms on a 3 mile strech of road near my dad homeplace and nearest bigger road.......theres 2 there now as people adbandoned them/emigrated/died off

You guys are in denial. If there was ever a UI this discriminatory history would be picked over in the same way the discrimination against Catholics in ni had been picked over. It would be part of getting special treatment for our poor discriminated people :-)

downcow

downcow wrote: »

You guys are in denial. If there was ever a UI this discriminatory history would be picked over in the same way the discrimination against Catholics in ni had been picked over. It would be part of getting special treatment for our poor discriminated people :-)

By all means have special treatment,no skin off my nose


..but the critism.that your father family had to emigrate....is identical to the millions who had to emigrate across the state until 1961......yous issue,like everyone else,is at the rich/establishment here and not a preceived sectarian issue,ffg just hate poor people......you've identified a problem,but misidentified the issue behind it

Natterjack from Kerry

downcow wrote: »

Here’s a few I just copied and pasted

Ne Temere decree requiring the children of mixed religious marriages be brought up Roman Catholic

• The Church of Ireland Gazette also remarks on the "forced exodus of large numbers" during the period of the early 1920s known as the Troubles.[2]

• The Catholic ethos of the Free State.[7]

• Symbols of British influence were seen as an integral part of the Protestant tradition during the interwar period between World War I and II, however the Free State's intent on removing them was viewed by southern Protestants as sectarian.[8]

• The introduction of a "Gaelicisation" policy.[8][9] The compulsory teaching of the Irish language in schools saw some Protestant parents send their children to school in the United Kingdom.[8] It also meant that Irish was compulsory for roles in the civil service,[8][9] which resulted in "the continuing emigration of young Protestants in search of jobs", with the requirement seen as "disguised discrimination" by some.[8] However, there were other Protestants who were happy to embrace the Irish language, such as Douglas Hyde who was made the first President of the Republic of Ireland partly because of his efforts to revive the Irish language.

• The influence of the Catholic Church on government policy, such as: the banning of divorce and contraception; censorship of films and books; and in the education system.[9] This reached its peak with the 1937 constitution giving the Catholic Church "special position" in the state.[9]

Its vile to see when you list out some of elements like that. Its the same drive that killed any chance of any entente with the north - it was proof of continued open hostility, and 'this is what we want to do to you guys too'. The Free State bears huge responsibility for the what has happened in the north.

Five Eighth

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

I would concede that. Certainly the republic was much more sectarian in its true sense, structuring the country for one community exclusively. Which also had the effect of further alienating and distancing northern unionism.

Sectarian? Try this for size -

"...The report also cited the close links maintained between the (NI) government and the Orange Order, the discrimination against Catholics in Judicial appointments, the maintenance of the exclusively Protestant B Specials, the 'frankly sectarian speeches' made by (NI) ministers and the gerrymandering of electoral boundaries as tendencies which make it difficult to contradict the assertion that the Unionist government's policies has resulted in the inflammation of religious bigotry and sectarianism..."
- The National Council for Civil Liberties (UK). 1936. Quoted by Chris Ryder in his book The RUC 1922-1997 (Revised Edition, 1997) p. 71.

Open a history book.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

And what was the quote that led up to that about a catholic country for a catholic people ?
Spin it any way you wish, youguys were much more effective at neutering the minority, don’t you think?

Can you give me a link to that quote about a Catholic country for a Catholic people please?