Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

17-01-2020 4:27pm

With the players now apparently being told that an additional reduction of 35 points is to happen that's it for Saracens.

Apparently the full sentence was to be 70 points but it was halved on discretion. As Sarries did nothing about the cap after the judgement and Wray dismissed the charges somewhat they've gotten the full whack now.

aloooof · 17-01-2020 4:29pm

I think I remember hearing Saracens were 200/1 to be relegated at the start of the season...

thomond2006 · 17-01-2020 4:32pm

aloooof wrote: »

I think I remember hearing Saracens were 200/1 to be relegated at the start of the season...

I imagine the sneaky bookies wouldn't honour it somehow. They'd argue that 200/1 was based on an even competition from the start.

Open to correction...

jr86 · 17-01-2020 4:32pm

aloooof wrote: »

I think I remember hearing Saracens were 200/1 to be relegated at the start of the season...

Jeez they're short enough odds to be honest!

Without all these shenanigans I'd have thought it about as likely as Spain winning the next rugby world cup

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 4:36pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

durkadurka wrote: »

something of a source here:
http://www.dai-sport.com/liam-williams-230000-reasons-hell-scarlet-sooner-rather-later/

I wonder if the £230k is what they'd save by cutting him early rather than his annual salary? - The money they've already paid him this season is already banked against the £7M cap for the year I would assume.

OldRio · 17-01-2020 4:43pm

With all these goings on I think it's only fair, that our thoughts and prayers go out to Stephen Jones at this most difficult and troublesome time.

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 4:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently the full sentence was to be 70 points but it was halved on discretion. As Sarries did nothing about the cap after the judgement and Wray dismissed the charges somewhat they've gotten the full whack now.

while I have little sympathy, a number of the articles outline how it is effectively impossible to get under the cap mid season and it is unsurprising that they couldn't suddenly be compliant during this season.

even cancelling contracts attract severance payments which would still be counted in this years expenditure

the mess here comes from the apparent decision to wait until after the RWC to act. really should have all happened before season started

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 4:51pm

Riskymove wrote: »

the mess here comes from the apparent decision to wait until after the RWC to act. really should have all happened before season started

Pretty sure there were people at the top and throughout the organisation that were convinced they had genuinely done nothing wrong and therefore had nothing to fix.

molloyjh · 17-01-2020 4:56pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Pretty sure there were people at the top and throughout the organisation that were convinced they had genuinely done nothing wrong and therefore had nothing to fix.

Sure they had a FAQ section on their website in November after the news first broke where they plainly said that they were under the cap this season. You couldnt write this.

It's all but official at thisnstage anyway. Another 35 point deduction.

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/17/saracens-salary-cap-premiership-relegation?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

17-01-2020 4:57pm

durkadurka wrote: »

that newspaper is an absolute rag but they've been good on this story, to be fair to them.

The Mail actually do some half decent sports reporting at times. One of theirs was one of the main guys uncovering all the Team Sky shenanigans.

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 4:57pm

Riskymove wrote: »

while I have little sympathy, a number of the articles outline how it is effectively impossible to get under the cap mid season and it is unsurprising that they couldn't suddenly be compliant during this season.

even cancelling contracts attract severance payments which would still be counted in this years expenditure

the mess here comes from the apparent decision to wait until after the RWC to act. really should have all happened before season started

From what I'm reading the decision came after Saracens continued to argue the toss and feign innocence.

If Saracens had come clean earlier and not fought and obfuscated at every opportunity they could have sorted it out and avoided all of this.

They signed MORE players over the past summer FFS - Other than Shalk Brits there were no notable departures..

Absolutely ZERO sympathy for the club as an Institution. I have sympathy for some players and staff that are going to take a hit here. But every dog in the street knew they were cheating so even that sympathy is fairly limited..

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 5:02pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

From what I'm reading the decision came after Saracens continued to argue the toss and feign innocence.

..

I dont see that in the articles linked to above

Indeed the guardian sets out how it was effectively impossible at this stage to sort it out and the other clubs acceptance of that (effectively there was no way they could be under the cap this year and that is down in part to the late reporting in November)

The club’s acting chief executive, Ed Griffiths, had initially indicated he would aim to cut wages and offload players but it has become increasingly apparent that doing so this season will not be practicable. Other English clubs cannot accommodate them without going over the cap themselves while any severance payments would also count towards the cap. It is understood Saracens would have needed to trim up to £2 million from their wage bill to be compliant.

as I said I have no sympathy but think it should have been reported on earlier and Sarries either relegated or given the full points deduction at an earlier time

Cookiemunster · 17-01-2020 5:09pm

Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »

The Mail actually do some half decent sports reporting at times. One of theirs was one of the main guys uncovering all the Team Sky shenanigans.

They've realised the disconnection between their front and back pages and now offer a sports only online package.

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 5:10pm

Riskymove wrote: »

as I said I have no sympathy but think it should have been reported on earlier and Sarries either relegated or given the full points deduction at an earlier time

Perhaps, though if Saracens had not been so belligerent in the face of all this they may have escaped further punishment. They are entirely to blame for this themselves.

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 5:11pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

They've realised the disconnection between their front and back pages and now offer a sports only online package.

So do the Telegraph actually which I find quite handy.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 5:21pm

My take, piecing together various sources of information:
Sarries knew they were nominally over the cap at the beginning of the year, but took a gamble on being able to convince PRL that extra-curricular investment in companies or properties in collaboration with players should not be counted towards their salary spend. This effort failed, (or it became apparent that it was definitely going to fail) and they had no plan B for cutting wages or jettisoning players.

That's about the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise they were over the cap, were informed they were over the cap, knew further punishment awaited if they didn't act, didn't act, and just... I dunno... hoped the PRL would forget about it?

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 5:32pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

My take, piecing together various sources of information:
Sarries knew they were nominally over the cap at the beginning of the year, but took a gamble on being able to convince PRL that extra-curricular investment in companies or properties in collaboration with players should not be counted towards their salary spend. This effort failed, (or it became apparent that it was definitely going to fail) and they had no plan B for cutting wages or jettisoning players.

That's about the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise they were over the cap, were informed they were over the cap, knew further punishment awaited if they didn't act, didn't act, and just... I dunno... hoped the PRL would forget about it?

I think the first part is probably closer to the truth, and would line up with Wray stepping away after they had no grounds for appeal, and they realised how deep in the swamp they were after trying other avenues like shopping players around other clubs.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out after the dust settles.

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 5:38pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Perhaps, though if Saracens had not been so belligerent in the face of all this they may have escaped further punishment. They are entirely to blame for this themselves.

sure

but we now have the charade of sarries actually playing the rest of the premiership season

perhaps at the same time as getting through to QF and further, even winning Europe

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 5:50pm

Riskymove wrote: »

sure

but we now have the charade of sarries actually playing the rest of the premiership season

perhaps at the same time as getting through to QF and further, even winning Europe

There is no mechanism to simply relegate them though. Sarries would always have had to play out the season.

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 5:57pm

Riskymove wrote: »

sure

but we now have the charade of sarries actually playing the rest of the premiership season

perhaps at the same time as getting through to QF and further, even winning Europe

What would happen if all the other Premiership clubs simply refused to fulfill the fixtures against them?

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 6:01pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is no mechanism to simply relegate them though. Sarries would always have had to play out the season.

yes but perhaps they would be under the cap while doing so at least if it all came out during summer for example

the fact that they can continue to have the full squad and play the rest of the season impacting on who wins etc is the charade

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 6:10pm

Riskymove wrote: »

yes but perhaps they would be under the cap while doing so at least if it all came out during summer for example

the fact that they can continue to have the full squad and play the rest of the season impacting on who wins etc is the charade

Don't disagree , but equally , if they were to force Saracens to dump half the squad right now then the clubs that they've already played and beaten might feel aggrieved that they had to play Money-bags Sarries and not Poor-House Sarries.

As it wasn't done pre-season , there's not much they can do now really other than let the season finish out.

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 6:13pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

As it wasn't done pre-season , there's not much they can do now really other than let the season finish out.

er....well yes...that's the point I have been making...that it should have been done earlier in summer rather than waiting until RWC so as not to upset England players

jacothelad · 17-01-2020 6:22pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Only if they hold on to the players, which would be very unlikely given the cut in wages that would be required.

Nosalary cap in the Championship..afaik.

durkadurka · 17-01-2020 6:24pm

The near certain relegation this season ensures Saracens are out of the next two Heineken cup seasons.

Will any of their stars stay on with that prospect?

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 7:39pm

durkadurka wrote: »

The near certain relegation this season ensures Saracens are out of the next two Heineken cup seasons.

Will any of their stars stay on with that prospect?

Would they stay on with the Championship in prospect next year? The heady heights of London Welsh, Cornish Pirates and Newcastle Falcons? Telling that they didn't seem willing to take a pay cut.

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 7:41pm

jr86 wrote: »

I'm sure it'd be facilitated though

If you earn your place, you deserve your place in fairness

I know its football, but when cardiff and Millwall made FA Cup finals they were playing for European football the year after despite being in championship at the time

This is the nub of the argument; they didn't earn their place and it wasn't "in fairness".

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 7:44pm

Remember the whole spiel Wray and co were spinning about players not joining Saracens just for the money, but the culture.... I have a feeling that's soon to bite them in the arse.

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 8:16pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

What would happen if all the other Premiership clubs simply refused to fulfill the fixtures against them?

Surely Sarries would get walkover wins in this case?

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 8:19pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Remember the whole spiel Wray and co were spinning about players not joining Saracens just for the money, but the culture.... I have a feeling that's soon to bite them in the arse.

It occurred to me when I heard no talk of them taking a pay cut alright. Culture doesn't butter parsnips I believe.

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 8:21pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Remember the whole spiel Wray and co were spinning about players not joining Saracens just for the money, but the culture.... I have a feeling that's soon to bite them in the arse.

I have to say I've been sniggering at all the comments on here expressing "sympathy for their fans".

I mean? Really?

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 8:23pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I have to say I've been sniggering at all the comments on here expressing "sympathy for their fans".

I mean? Really?

To be fair, the fans are guilty of nothing more than a bit of uppityness from winning stuff. Something I'd say we all could be accused of.

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 8:29pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair, the fans are guilty of nothing more than a bit of uppityness from winning stuff. Something I'd say we all could be accused of.

I dunno. I can't say that I'm not taking incredible pleasure at the demise of them tbh. The fans hurt being factored into it, in a Scott Tenorman style way.

Former Former · 17-01-2020 8:34pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I dunno. I can't say that I'm not taking incredible pleasure at the demise of them tbh. The fans hurt being factored into it, in a Scott Tenorman style way.

That's a horrible attitude. The fans didn't cause this. Jesus.

17-01-2020 8:34pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair, the fans are guilty of nothing more than a bit of uppityness from winning stuff. Something I'd say we all could be accused of.

I read through some of their comments, well ok a lot, on their facebook page back in November. It was everyone elses fault, sure someone had to look after their England stars, the salary cap was silly.

They have made it very difficult to have sympathy for them considering the way they have acted online.

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 8:37pm

Former Former wrote: »

That's a horrible attitude. The fans didn't cause this. Jesus.

Ah jesus calm down. Can we not all bask in this sh!show for the next few days? It's hilarious given the choir boy attitude when they were caught.

I'm sure there will be mass protests in the streets of Saracens tonight as a result of all this.

17-01-2020 8:40pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah jesus calm down. Can we not all bask in this sh!show for the next few days? It's hilarious given the choir boy attitude when they were caught.

I'm sure there will be mass protests in the streets of Saracens tonight as a result of all this.

How will we know ?, will it be the three people standing together in their Saracens jerseys ? whats the minimum number allowed to call it a "mass protest" or do they just have to go to mass afterwards ?

Bazzo · 17-01-2020 9:00pm

Jeffrey Lebowski wrote: »

I was shocked when they told me, but they were insistant on it. There is a reason, they all leave Wales.

They were taking the piss.

17-01-2020 9:03pm

https://twitter.com/DoncasterKnight/status/1218184487680585728

freyners · 17-01-2020 9:08pm

Credit to the original poster legorockman on Reddit for this beauty

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 9:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I read through some of their comments, well ok a lot, on their facebook page back in November. It was everyone elses fault, sure someone had to look after their England stars, the salary cap was silly.

They have made it very difficult to have sympathy for them considering the way they have acted online.

That's just the stages of grief. Denial being the first. It's the likes of Stephen Jones that should really get a slapping.

mike_cork · 17-01-2020 9:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I read through some of their comments, well ok a lot, on their facebook page back in November. It was everyone elses fault, sure someone had to look after their England stars, the salary cap was silly.

They have made it very difficult to have sympathy for them considering the way they have acted online.

Go onto their forum and see the delusion first hand.

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,16709759

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 9:46pm

mike_cork wrote: »

Go onto their forum and see the delusion first hand.

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,16709759

Sarseholes Messageboard wrote:

Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Why not apply to join the Guinness Pro14?
Howiefez 17 January, 2020 08:46
Having no intimate knowledge of the details of the salary cap, I unable to pass judgement on the rights and wrongs of Saracens position (without transparency no one else has either!), but it seems that the rest of the Premiership acting as judge and jury, has condemned Saracens to relegation already.
Instead of being forced to play in the Championship next year and possibly beyond, perhaps one route out of the mess is to apply to permanently play in the Guinness Pro14, replacing one of the South African teams. At least then Saracens would be on a level salary playing field with the Irish and the also with the French.
Accepting this would have many ramifications, for example, the English international players, Saracens Storm etc, is this a possibility? I'd rather see Munster, Leinster and Scarlets visiting Allianz Park than Ampthill and Ealing.
Comments please.

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,16709242

---

To be fair there are some decent posters on there who want the punishment to clear house and are sickened by the carry-on. But there are others wo are beyond help.

sliabh 1956 · 17-01-2020 9:47pm

Just saw this on the BBC sports web page "Can Saracens play in the Champions Cup if relegated?
No. While the winners of the Champions Cup qualify for next season's tournament - and Saracens are still in contention - European organisers have confirmed to the BBC that only teams from the Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 14 are eligible to play in European competitions. The only exceptions are the teams from emerging nations who play in the Challenge Cup."

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 9:52pm

mike_cork wrote: »

Go onto their forum and see the delusion first hand.

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,16709759

Your link took me straight to a thread looking at the benefits of relegation. Most of the posts I read were entirely positive and looking forward to the prospect of going to grounds they hadn't visited in years. I kinda got a bit bored by all the positivity.

mike_cork · 17-01-2020 10:05pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Your link took me straight to a thread looking at the benefits of relegation. Most of the posts I read were entirely positive and looking forward to the prospect of going to grounds they hadn't visited in years. I kinda got a bit bored by all the positivity.

My apologies, meant this thread! As the news got worse during the last few hours,acceptance of their fate seems to have finally set in
https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,16708853

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 10:33pm

mike_cork wrote: »

My apologies, meant this thread! As the news got worse during the last few hours,acceptance of their fate seems to have finally set in
https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,16708853

Cheers. Still not seeing anything other than the odd few throwing questions around or being a bit disingenuous even. But a lot are like this one:

Something I thought of whilst writing this was the fact that many if not most of us on here supported the club when we were rubbish. Winning trophies is not what it was about. It was about the rugby.

None of us demanded trophies we were just happy that we stayed up or got a chance to play in the Heineken cup. It seems a long the way this has been lost by the club, it became about the winning and worse yet it became about winning at any cost!

I won’t lie I have loved winning I have some great memories of all the finals that we won but when we look back what has it cost us?

molloyjh · 17-01-2020 10:40pm

Yeah theres a real human element to this people are forgetting in their delight. People who had nothing to do with the cheating will lose their jobs. Some will forever be stained by what has happened. And the real culprits, the likes of Nigel Wray for example, get to walk away. This is exactly what the club deserves, but the people in it arent all guilty and dont all deserve this. Celebrating people losing their jobs is nasty. End of. I'm glad they were caught and I'm glad the punishment is as harsh as it should be. But I take no actual pleasure from the fact that it is happening. People need to remember the human cost of this.

mike_cork · 17-01-2020 10:46pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Cheers. Still not seeing anything other than the odd few throwing questions around or being a bit disingenuous even. But a lot are like this one:

Yeah saw that comment myself. I do feel sorry for the fans that have been with the club for years and saw them rise from basically nothing.
However its been an open secret for years that Saracens have been systematically cheating. They've cheated their fellow clubs in england out of titles and the revenue and prestige that comes with that.
Having been on many munster away trips in england and speaking to english club fans- They hate Saracens with a burning passion so I can understand the delight they are having watching "the wolfpack" empire collapse.

Downlinz · 17-01-2020 11:05pm

durkadurka wrote: »

The near certain relegation this season ensures Saracens are out of the next two Heineken cup seasons.

Will any of their stars stay on with that prospect?

Is there enough cap space on the other sides to take all the English internationals without dramatic pay cuts? They can't move abroad and play test rugby by the RFU rules so could a few of them sit on their contracts rather than take a big pay cut?