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Dublin bikes being cycled on the footpath?

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    #62
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I push a pram through the city every day of the week and have never had an issue with anyone cycling on a footpath as they tend to cycle slowly and defensively. A much bigger issue for 'mother's' (not fathers??:() is cars and bicycles going through red lights, ignoring asls, stopping in yellow boxes, stopping across pedestrian areas, parking on the footpaths (where the biggest problem is outside Store Street & Pearse Street Garda stations aswell as the Garda place up on Harcourt Street). Taxis and busses cause alot of issues aswell where they stop randomly thereby blocking pedestrians and restricting views along with creating artificial pinch points.
    Never had any problems with a cyclist on a footpath.

    tldr - nonsense

    I agree with you that motorists'irresponsibility poses a much higher danger to children than cycling on pavements. That isn't the topic of discussion. Guns are more lethal than swords. The fact is that it is a danger to cycle on pavements. It's against the law and it's a danger to pedestrians.

    As a parent I have never had a personal risk from cyclists on pavements but it's dangerous and it gives the anti cycling lobby bait for cyclist bashing.

    The worst incident I have seen involving cyclists on the pavement is two cyclists crashing head on into each other on my cycle home when one came around a corner. It is not beyond possibility that one of the cyclists could have been a Madonna with child. Long ago I did hit into someone as a teenager on the pavement myself.

    I never ever cycle on the footpath or break red lights end of. It's indefensible.

    There really is no excuse.

    Having said that the location of many of the dB stations tempts many to go wrong way down one way streets and /or cycle onpavements. Their location often means having to go around inconvenient long one way loops etc.


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    #63
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    [...] I have never had a personal risk from cyclists on pavements but it's dangerous and it gives the anti cycling lobby bait for cyclist bashing.
    I hear you. At the same time, dangerous driving is *never* used as a reason not to provide motorists with excellent infrastructure. In fact it's the opposite!

    Consistent dangerous driving? Better make that road safer and higher spec!

    Dangerous cycling? Fucking cyclists!


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    #64
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Aard wrote: »
    I hear you. At the same time, dangerous driving is *never* used as a reason not to provide motorists with excellent infrastructure. In fact it's the opposite!

    Consistent dangerous driving? Better make that road safer and higher spec!

    Dangerous cycling? Fucking cyclists!

    That is not the point.

    We are discussing people cycling on footpaths.

    If motorists drive on the footpaths they get vilified also. Yes our cities and towns have been made car centric and yes cycle facilities are terrible. But it is not acceptable to cycle on the foot path.

    Also while you are pretty much right to date, planning in this country has finally theoretically changed and now there is finally a recognition that cars must not be put first in terms of street and road planning in urban areas.


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    #65
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    That is not the point.
    Merely responding to your "bait for cyclist bashing" point.


    I would be cautious about how much we've changed the transport hierarchy. Yes, all the plans and guidelines say the right things now. How that materialises is another story. Many transport schemes still prioritise the car. Even Section 38 schemes have been used to prioritise car over other transport modes by some Councils, ironically.


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    #66
    Red Hare
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Red Hare


    I think the people who cycle on the footpath often do so because it safer than the road.

    In Dublin the roads are fairly deadly in places for cyclists.


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    #67
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,313 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    The fact is that it is a danger to cycle on pavements. It's against the law and it's a danger to pedestrians.

    As a parent I have never had a personal risk from cyclists on pavements but it's dangerous and it gives the anti cycling lobby bait for cyclist bashing.

    The worst incident I have seen involving cyclists on the pavement is two cyclists crashing head on into each other on my cycle home when one came around a corner. It is not beyond possibility that one of the cyclists could have been a Madonna with child.

    My point is that those who do cycle on footpaths are not a danger to anyone as they tend to cycle slowly. We can look at hypothetical situations all day but accident statistics show that cycling on a footpath in Dublin City centre is a non event safety wise. They are at worst an annoyance for those who would like the letter of the law applied to everyone (other than themselves of course).


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    #68
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Red Hare wrote: »
    In Dublin the roads are fairly deadly in places for cyclists.

    Hyperbole alert


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    #69
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    For the record: I'm against cycling on footpaths, especially in city or town centres or any where where footpaths are narrow and/or busy.
    Bambi wrote: »
    Cyclists are probably unique in that they're the only commuting group who actually think they're like islamic fundamentalists when it comes to protecting the sanctity of a cycle lane but also feel entitled to use every other part of the city as their own road

    You're claiming that, yet...

    ...pedestrians (rightly) view the footpath as on space for them only, but when it suits them they (wrong) step out into the roadway or cycle path without looking, or walk along cycle lanes or paths when they are legally bound to use the footpath a few seconds away on the other side of the road or just inside a railing.

    ...motorists on a mass level (wrongly) drive and park on cycle lanes and footpaths, yet get annoyed (rightly or wrongly) when people cycling or walking (rightly or wrongly) use the roadway or "their" lanes.

    ...or motorists (wrongly) drive and park on cycle lanes and cycle paths, yet they (rightly) get annoyed when people cycle on motorways.

    ...or bus drivers or taxi drivers who have no issue (rightly so) in using all the traffic lanes which suits them but (wrongly) get annoyed when a person on a bicycle chooses not to use an off-road cycle path full of glass or which stops and starts or which mixes with people walking or which has a surface like mars etc.

    Bambi wrote: »
    No, the city has made its mind up, cyclists are not pedestrians so no cycling on footpaths. Its the law and stuff. Cyclists just chose to ignore it.

    This is just untrue. Dublin's city and county councils keep mixing cycling and walking on shared paths in random ways. This is increasing, not decreasing.

    At a national level we had laws keeping cycling and walking apart, but these were innorged by designers of cycle lanes and paths, and the law was changed retrospectly to suit these designs.

    Bambi wrote: »
    If the day ever comes when motorists are driving up footpaths in their droves, I'll be calling them on it. Up until then I'll be focusing on our cycling chums

    They do drive up on footpaths in their droves! Otherwise how do they manage to park on footpaths in their droves?!

    They also drive on cycle lanes and paths in their droves, yet you don't seem to see that for some reason???


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    #70
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    Well you're breaking the law, endangering mother's with their children, the sick, the old, the lame as well as all other types of pedestrians. You're also giving cyclists a bad name and justifying reckless driving and feeding Joe Duffy and sir George hook with anti cycling polemics.

    If you want to use the foot path get off the bike.

    As a father who used a pram for 6 months carrying my first child around, I can safety say that motorists parked on footpaths caused a far larger danger and motorists breaking red lights were a far, far larger danger again.

    Some people cycling were also a danger but usually when breaking red lights, those on footpaths usually went slow, dismounted, or hopped onto the road.

    I've actually found people cycling on footpaths more of an nuance in lower volumes outside Dublin, when they feel that's where they belong because their parents told them so in case of teenagers or motorists told them so in the case of some adults.


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    #71
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    The main problem with those Dublin bike is that they've no helmets.


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    #72
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,313 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    They don't need helmets


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    #73
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    The main problem with those Dublin bike is that they've no helmets.

    How is that a problem for anyone but the person him/herself?


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    #74
    Baron Kurtz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭Baron Kurtz


    Has any cyclist ever stopped here? Ever?!:) They may as well have no lights at all.

    I'm referring to the left turn junction.


    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.338462,-6.239402,3a,75y,33.95h,67.19t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx1wXZe1v4hRY7DXqY40ukA!2e0


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    #75
    Baron Kurtz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭Baron Kurtz


    This too: Has any motorist ever acknowledged the double cycle lane here:)

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.348175,-6.255991,3a,75y,66.98h,83.84t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sGVlhTYvPJCINdy4yGQJ-gA!2e0


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    #76
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,313 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Baron Kurtz wrote: »
    Has any cyclist ever stopped here? Ever?!:) They may as well have no lights at all.

    I'm referring to the left turn junction.


    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.338462,-6.239402,3a,75y,33.95h,67.19t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx1wXZe1v4hRY7DXqY40ukA!2e0

    Funnily enough your picture has no cyclist in it doing anything wrong but you have a car well over the asl intruding in the bicycle hold box and even then did not even obey the cyclin asl. these are the kind of unaware motorists that make walking around the city dangerous. Other than that your post does not make any sense. Yes many cyclists stop at that junction :confused:


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    #77
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    They don't need helmets

    They will when some pedestrian pushes them off a footpath.


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    #78
    Baron Kurtz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭Baron Kurtz


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Funnily enough your picture has no cyclist in it doing anything wrong but you have a car well over the asl intruding in the bicycle hold box and even then did not even obey the cyclin asl. these are the kind of unaware motorists that make walking around the city dangerous. Other than that your post does not make any sense. Yes many cyclists stop at that junction :confused:

    I actually just pulled the location from Google maps. It was used as reference to indicate what I witness there on a daily basis. But if you want to go down that route of what was captured on Google Maps at that exact time, it could indicate that the cyclist in the picture went through a red.

    I don't know what you're confused about tbh and how is there no sense in my post? I'm noting that cyclists never stop there, or maybe 1 out of 10 cyclists stop there. If you're trying to argue that they don't then you have your head in the clouds.

    Okay, I diverted from the thread title, but there are plenty of posters going off the subject and light-breaking was mentioned. Thought I'd just add this to the mix.


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    #79
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,313 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I would have thought the cyclist came from perpendicular to this junction judging by his positioning on the road. Impossible to know though.

    Inserting pictures of random junctions does not prove anything to anybody.

    With regard to your other picture again Yes they have or else there would be people killed there on a daily basis.
    fiachr_a wrote: »
    They will when some pedestrian pushes them off a footpath.
    Shhhhhh the adults are talking


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    #80
    Baron Kurtz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭Baron Kurtz


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I would have thought the cyclist came from perpendicular to this junction judging by his positioning on the road. Impossible to know though.

    Inserting pictures of random junctions does not prove anything to anybody.

    With regard to your other picture again Yes they have or else there would be people killed there on a daily basis.


    Shhhhhh the adults are talking


    Ah, okay. I offered up a link to the junction as I truly find the manner in which it is used as an exercise in how the rules are egregiously flaunted. It's risible; humorous almost, and I was of the feeling that this would be well-known to folks on here. I'm not sure you know it so well. To be honest I wasn't looking to get into a serious debate either.

    Funnily enough the road to which is leads onto is quite wide and there's a large scope to monitor oncoming traffic from the right, so that's why there aren't people killed there on a daily basis. But nonetheless cyclists sail through reds there at will, albeit with some element of safety. It's probably why they do so.


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    #81
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,239 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    They don't need helmets

    If only there were a big long thread on that topic....

    :)


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    #82
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    Keep it civil and on topic folks.


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    #83
    Cienciano
    Registered Users Posts: 14,232 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Aard wrote: »
    Yes you're right. Try to trace a path from west of Grafton Street to east of Grafton Street by bike. The only legal way involves a ~1km diversion. As for O'Connell Street to Heuston -- have you tried cycling on the quays? Not for the meek.

    People cycling on footpaths is a symptom of a poorly designed street network.
    There's an easy way to get across grafton street. Get off your bike and walk with it.
    TBH, cyclists on footpaths is more annoying than dangerous. It's not a big deal. But still, it shouldn't happen.


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    #84
    Rakish Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭Rakish Paddy


    Cienciano wrote: »
    TBH, cyclists on footpaths is more annoying than dangerous.

    Any cases where I've seen a cyclist and pedestrian collide on a footpath/pedestrian street has been at a low enough speed so I don't think anyone got badly injured, but with some of the speeds I see cyclists doing on the pedestrian part of Grafton St. and on the footpath on Amiens St. I think a nasty injury to either cyclist or pedestrian is a very real possibility.


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    #85
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    Aard wrote: »
    C But I do have the objectivity to understand why people do cycle on footpaths. It's a symptom of inadequate and inappropriate infrastructure.

    There's a cycle lane a around sections of St. Stephen's Green yet I regularly have to dodge people on Dublin Bikes using the path at these spots because it's a bit inconvenient for them to actually follow the correct flow around the green. So add laziness and selfishness to the lack of infrastructure.


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    #86
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cienciano wrote: »
    There's an easy way to get across grafton street. Get off your bike and walk with it.....

    I think you are missing the point. People...cyclists...whoever, .will take the path of least resistance. So for some its easier, (shorter, more direct, easier to cycle, no risk of a fine etc.) to go on the path. Especially for the inexperienced.

    I think as people get more experienced. They'll take the route that means they don't have to dismount. Its like taking a longer route in a car that is a nicer drive. However in a car thats painless. On a bicycle its a lot more effort.

    However I think the point being made is that the one way systems in Dublin City Center, are unnecessarily convoluted for cyclists in particular.

    In addition the design of cycle facilities is truly appalling in many cases. Criminally bad.


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    #87
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    jack presley wrote: »
    There's a cycle lane a around sections of St. Stephen's Green yet I regularly have to dodge people on Dublin Bikes using the path at these spots because it's a bit inconvenient for them to actually follow the correct flow around the green. So add laziness and selfishness to the lack of infrastructure.

    Considering how central it is, there are very few IMO cyclists (relative to the location) who use Stephen green as a route in or out of town. As the one way system means you've got to take massive circular routes to everywhere. Also the traffic when its flowing moves very fast and with poor lane discipline.

    I know Dublin very well. I have to really think about how to get from A to B on a bicycle. Tourists, or even people in experienced at cycling in traffic must be completely intimidated.


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    #88
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    The city centre needs to roll out as many contraflow bike lanes as possible. Plenty of space available.


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    #89
    gzoladz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭gzoladz


    Take a step back... I have lived here for 11 years and lived in Amsterdam before. In 2004 in Dublin the cycling infrastructure was limited and poorly designed. As a result, fewer people cycled.

    This has improved significantly with realy good quality facilities being built. This combined with other actions taken to promote cycling (cycle to work, Dublin bikes, etc) has resulted into way more people commuting on a bike.

    This is still quite new for Dublin. The cultural change is happening right now.

    11 years ago, cyclist were nearly ignored and considered a nuisance on the road. There is much more awareness of them now.

    True, many of the break the rules of the road, red lights, etc and that does not help. However on average they are better behaved than a few years ago. And it will never be perfect for the same reason that motorists' behaviour will not be perfect and Amsterdam cyclist are not perfect. The police there cracks down red lights breaking heavily as it is a big problem too.

    So it is improving and getting better.

    On a somewhat humoristic note, we should not forget to thank Dublin Bus for their contribution to the success of cycling in Dublin. Their service standards have encouraged a lot of people to start cycling.


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    #90
    Cienciano
    Registered Users Posts: 14,232 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    beauf wrote: »
    I think you are missing the point. People...cyclists...whoever, .will take the path of least resistance. So for some its easier, (shorter, more direct, easier to cycle, no risk of a fine etc.) to go on the path. Especially for the inexperienced.

    I think as people get more experienced. They'll take the route that means they don't have to dismount. Its like taking a longer route in a car that is a nicer drive. However in a car thats painless. On a bicycle its a lot more effort.

    However I think the point being made is that the one way systems in Dublin City Center, are unnecessarily convoluted for cyclists in particular.

    In addition the design of cycle facilities is truly appalling in many cases. Criminally bad.
    Well, anyone can use the "well, it's easier" excuse to break rules of the roads. Someone can park in a cycle lane and use the excuse "well, there should be better parking facilities, and this is closer and easier for me" but it's not a valid one.


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    #91
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Cienciano wrote: »
    Well, anyone can use the "well, it's easier" excuse to break rules of the roads. Someone can park in a cycle lane and use the excuse "well, there should be better parking facilities, and this is closer and easier for me" but it's not a valid one.

    Is the poster giving an excuse or a reason?


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