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Dublin bikes being cycled on the footpath?

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    #122
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Rakish Paddy wrote: »
    The illegal actions that I see multiple times every single day, without exception, that I am in town as a pedestrian are:
    - people cycling on footpaths / pedestrian streets
    - people cycling the wrong way on a one-way street
    - people cycling through red lights

    The other offences I see regularly enough:
    - cyclists on the wrong side of the road entirely
    - cyclists dangerously attempting to undertake a vehicle, where the driver is indicating to turn left and the cyclist is trying to go straight ahead (I'm not sure if this is actually against the law, but it's a hazard to the health of the cyclist, to say the least!)
    - cyclists dangerously overtaking a bus that is in the process of pulling out from a stop

    I would not consider any of these to be 'acceptable' though!

    For someone obsessed with following the rules you don't have a very good grasp of them, and seem instead to have contempt for the rights of cyclists.

    If you are in a car and turning left it is your responsibility to make sure that there are no cyclists to your left. They're not "undertaking", they are going in a straight line and you are threatening to drive through them, they have right of way.

    When a bus, or any other vehicle, is pulling away from the kerb it is their responsibility to make sure the lane is clear and must wait until it is clear before pulling out, whether there is a bike or a car using the lane.

    You don't seem to so much have a problem with cyclists breaking rules as you do with cyclists existing at all.


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    #123
    obriendj
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭obriendj


    Rakish Paddy wrote: »
    The illegal actions that I see multiple times every single day, without exception, that I am in town as a pedestrian are:
    - people cycling on footpaths / pedestrian streets
    - people cycling the wrong way on a one-way street
    - people cycling through red lights
    - Wrong and stupid I dont know why people do this.
    - There is an argument that one-ways should only apply to motorized vehicles.
    - Again stupid
    The other offences I see regularly enough:
    - cyclists on the wrong side of the road entirely
    - cyclists dangerously attempting to undertake a vehicle, where the driver is indicating to turn left and the cyclist is trying to go straight ahead (I'm not sure if this is actually against the law, but it's a hazard to the health of the cyclist, to say the least!)
    - cyclists dangerously overtaking a bus that is in the process of pulling out from a stop

    - havent seen too much of this.
    - stupid behaviour but motorist should wait until cyclist has past before turning. The driver may not have put on the indicator on in time.
    - I have seen motorist do this as much as cyclist but I dont see the point as the bus will have overtake again.

    To add to your list however.
    - Cyclist without lights usually with dark clothes
    - Without Helmet (as we know not against the law but stupid and selfish if you ask me)
    - On the phone (I saw a young lad come off the footpath, break a light then run out in front of me while on the phone)


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    #124
    Rakish Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭Rakish Paddy


    Zillah wrote: »
    For someone obsessed with following the rules you don't have a very good grasp of them, and seem instead to have contempt for the rights of cyclists.

    If you are in a car and turning left it is your responsibility to make sure that there are no cyclists to your left. They're not "undertaking", they are going in a straight line and you are threatening to drive through them, they have right of way.

    When a bus, or any other vehicle, is pulling away from the kerb it is their responsibility to make sure the lane is clear and must wait until it is clear before pulling out, whether there is a bike or a car using the lane.

    You don't seem to so much have a problem with cyclists breaking rules as you do with cyclists existing at all.

    I speak out of concern for the welfare of cyclists themselves! In terms of buses, I'm talking about when a bus is indicating right, has already begun to pull out, and a cyclist coming from behind speeds up and attempts to overtake the already-moving bus. In any case I have seen the bus driver stop and let the cyclist pass. That behaviour is hazardous to the cyclist's own safety, surely. And it would be equally nuts to attempt that move in a car. I have no issue in the slightest with cyclists being on the road, but that is just a reckless move however you look at it.

    Same thing with cyclists undertaking a left-turning vehicle. If the vehicle has waited until the cyclist is alongside them to indicate then they are being reckless, but if the vehicle has indicated in time, and the cyclist still tries to race them to the junction, again it's sheer recklessness! Of course the driver isn't going to deliberately try to side-swipe the cyclist, but the cyclist is potentially putting themselves in harm's way. I believe many large vehicles have blind spots too and so might not even see the cyclist before it's too late.


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    #125
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Rakish Paddy wrote: »
    The illegal actions that I see multiple times every single day, without exception, that I am in town as a pedestrian are:
    - people cycling on footpaths / pedestrian streets
    - people cycling the wrong way on a one-way street
    - people cycling through red lights

    The other offences I see regularly enough:
    - cyclists on the wrong side of the road entirely
    - cyclists dangerously attempting to undertake a vehicle, where the driver is indicating to turn left and the cyclist is trying to go straight ahead (I'm not sure if this is actually against the law, but it's a hazard to the health of the cyclist, to say the least!)
    - cyclists dangerously overtaking a bus that is in the process of pulling out from a stop

    I would not consider any of these to be 'acceptable' though!

    It's funny how you only see cyclists breaking the law, yet the road safety statistics will show you that motor vehicles kill 200 people each year and maim thousands of others, while cyclists kill zero people each year.


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    #126
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,484 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Zillah wrote: »
    If you are in a car and turning left it is your responsibility to make sure that there are no cyclists to your left. They're not "undertaking", they are going in a straight line and you are threatening to drive through them, they have right of way.

    This information is incorrect. I urge you to edit your original post to avoid confusion.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html
    A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—
    (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,
    (ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or
    (iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #127
    Rakish Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭Rakish Paddy


    RainyDay wrote: »
    It's funny how you only see cyclists breaking the law, yet the road safety statistics will show you that motor vehicles kill 200 people each year and maim thousands of others, while cyclists kill zero people each year.

    I see plenty of motorists do stupid stuff (using phones, not indicating, and speeding up to go through an amber light being the most obvious), but as a pedestrian I notice far more cyclists really obviously breaking the law on an average day in town.


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    #128
    Rakish Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭Rakish Paddy


    And to relate back to my original post, an unusually large amount of those bikes that I see being used in an illegal / reckless manner in town seem to be Dublin Bikes...


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    #129
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Rakish Paddy wrote: »
    And to relate back to my original post, an unusually large amount of those bikes that I see being used in an illegal / reckless manner in town seem to be Dublin Bikes...

    Yeah, feckin casuals.


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    #130
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    This information is incorrect. I urge you to edit your original post to avoid confusion.

    I've literally never seen a cyclist going fast enough to catch up with and try to overtake a car that has already signaled their intent to turn. What usually happens is that a cyclist will already be beside a vehicle and they will suddenly turn or indicate at the last second and turn without looking in their mirror. It's the drivers responsibility to not do that.


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    #131
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,551 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Rakish Paddy wrote: »
    And to relate back to my original post, an unusually large amount of those bikes that I see being used in an illegal / reckless manner in town seem to be Dublin Bikes...

    And Cyclone couriers ;)


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    #132
    Rakish Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭Rakish Paddy


    MJohnston wrote: »
    And Cyclone couriers ;)

    I used to actually find those guys were great at stopping at lights / not cycling on the footpaths etc. up until a few months ago, then I started seeing guys in Cyclone gear going through red lights in town quite a bit. I guess they could be under increased pressure to deliver stuff as quickly as they possibly can.


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    #133
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,551 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Re: stopping at lights. I have to be honest, and say that I don't always do it :o


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    #134
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Rakish Paddy wrote: »
    I see plenty of motorists do stupid stuff (using phones, not indicating, and speeding up to go through an amber light being the most obvious), but as a pedestrian I notice far more cyclists really obviously breaking the law on an average day in town.

    Speeding up to go through amber lights? You're joking right? If you notice 'far more cyclists' breaking the law, there is just a touch of selection bias going on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWC8sT06Zi0


    But regardless, the fact remains - Cyclists don't kill people on the roads in Ireland. If you want to save lives on the road, you're looking in the wrong direction.


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    #135
    Rakish Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭Rakish Paddy


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Speeding up to go through amber lights? You're joking right? If you notice 'far more cyclists' breaking the law, there is just a touch of selection bias going on.

    The behaviour in the above clip by the motorists is horrendous!! The other thing I HATE is when a vehicle decides to drive right on to the pedestrian crossing and then stop there just as the green man lights up. I notice this most on Dame St, probably because of the number of buses that use it.


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    #136
    Rakish Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭Rakish Paddy


    ...but as a pedestrian I definitely notice more bad behaviour from cyclists than motorists. Obviously a reckless motorist is more likely to do some serious damage than a reckless cyclist, but in terms of frequency, as a pedestrian I definitely spot more cyclists than motorists doing dodgy stuff on roads/footpaths in the city centre.


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    #137
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Yep, a good shoulder sticking out at the same time helps too. The other option is to stand with both arms outstretched blocking the pavement, and wave them out onto the road. If everyone did this, they'd soon tire of the pavement.

    I find this works best: http://goo.gl/uqy45M


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    #138
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    As a pedestrian in Dublin city centre, I spot pedestrians breaking the law the most -- mass jaywalking on O'Connell Street is the prime example.


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    #139
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Is jaywalking illegal in Ireland?


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    #140
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    monument wrote: »
    As a pedestrian in Dublin city centre, I spot pedestrians breaking the law the most -- mass jaywalking on O'Connell Street is the prime example.

    But if we're going with the size, weight and speed argument that's been promoted here (bikes don't do as much damage as cars so breaking the law's alright), then pedestrians breaking the law is even less of an issue isn't it?


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    #141
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    jack presley wrote: »
    ... so breaking the law's alright...

    I have not said that.

    If your so keen on attributing points not made be posters to them, maybe your perspective on cycling is also a bit out of focus?
    Aard wrote: »
    Is jaywalking illegal in Ireland?

    Within 15 meters of a crossing it is.


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    #142
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Aard wrote: »
    Is jaywalking illegal in Ireland?

    Technically but it is not enforced.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46
    (more of an emphasis on never crossing if there's a red man rather than on open road)

    Personally I think every instance of people walking on the road where they have a red pedestrian light should be prosecuted, because rules are rules.


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    #143
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    monument wrote: »
    Within 15 meters of a crossing it is.
    I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, but do you know where it says this? I recently was told that the "red man" traffic light was merely advisory, and naturally enough that really threw me.

    EDIT: just saw the above comment.

    EDIT EDIT: where it says "shall not" -- isn't that merely advisory? In the UK they make a distinction between "shall not" and "must not"...


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    #144
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Aard wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, but do you know where it says this? I recently was told that the "red man" traffic light was merely advisory, and naturally enough that really threw me.

    EDIT: just saw the above comment.

    EDIT EDIT: where it says "shall not" -- isn't that merely advisory? In the UK they make a distinction between "shall not" and "must not"...

    No.

    Shall not = must not.


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    #145
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    monument wrote: »
    I have not said that.

    If your so keen on attributing points not made be posters to them, maybe your perspective on cycling is also a bit out of focus?

    Although I was quoting your comment, my response was related to a running theme of comment made by other posters. Reading the last few pages of the thread I thought would have made that obvious.

    As for my perspectives, my only one is that I don't buy the argument that it's ok to disregard certain rules of the road because the person thinks the risk is low.


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    #146
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    jack presley wrote: »
    Although I was quoting your comment, my response was related to a running theme of comment made by other posters. Reading the last few pages of the thread I thought would have made that obvious.

    As for my perspectives, my only one is that I don't buy the argument that it's ok to disregard certain rules of the road because the person thinks the risk is low.

    So no one should ever cross when a pedestrian light is red?


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    #147
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    Zillah wrote: »
    So no one should ever cross when a pedestrian light is red?

    Technically no, but I'm as guilty as the next person!


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    #148
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I see...

    So we're allowed to break the rules all we want as long as we post on the internet that we technically shouldn't, am I following you?


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    #149
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    Zillah wrote: »
    I see...

    So we're allowed to break the rules all we want as long as we post on the internet that we technically shouldn't, am I following you?

    Yeah, probably.

    Seriously though, the argument I was trying (unsuccessfully) to make is that me breaking the ROTR as a pedestrian is no different to a car doing it or a bike.


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    #150
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    No hang on
    jack presley wrote: »
    As for my perspectives, my only one is that I don't buy the argument that it's ok to disregard certain rules of the road because the person thinks the risk is low.

    Am I allowed to break the rules on my bike or not, and if not, why is it ok for you to do it as a pedestrian?


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    #151
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    Zillah wrote: »
    No hang on



    Am I allowed to break the rules on my bike or not, and if not, why is it ok for you to do it as a pedestrian?

    No it's not ok for me to break the rules on foot and if ever pulled up on it, I'll take the consequences.


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