Remote working - the future?

12-06-2021 12:29pm

Strumms wrote: »

If your boss has your mobile, personal mobile ? “ sorry, just checking if... “. Their mindset will be blurred by your home no longer being your personal space 100%... you and it and your time there partly belongs to them, that’s how they’ll see it.

Eh, no, it won't. Look up:

Tánaiste signs Code of Practice on Right to Disconnect - gov.ie.

In my working life of over 30 years, I have never had a boss call me outside of my regular working hours. In the last 15 months working exclusively from home, I've never been called outside of my regular working hours either.

As has been said by other posters already, if anyone has an issue with a boss calling them at inappropriate times outside of hours, that is an issue with the boss, it is not a WFH issue.

All your arguments against WFH have already been made and dealt with in great detail throughout the thread. All the arguments about contracts etc included.

The one good thing that came out of COVID is that many, many people now place more value on work/life balance and recognise the value of time spent with their families and recognise that precious hours wasted every day in long commutes is not what they want anymore. Well, most people, anyway.

The thread is really just going in circles now.

Flinty997 · 13-06-2021 9:42am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...
The thread is really just going in circles now.

It's not the thread. It's people reluctance to change. You are seeing the same habits repeated in people's experiences in different jobs. The most common factor is people themselves. People paint themselves into a corner often through habits.

ineedeuro · 13-06-2021 9:59am

Esse85 wrote: »

Why do you say there's not a housing shortage, your only quoting one side of the coin here, the supply side?

How can you say it is a housing crisis if Ireland has enough houses but they just don't have enough in the specific area that people want them in. Thats a housing location crisis.

Look at the example above. No houses in Waterford yet 326 available on the web, if you dig deeper the person probably wants XYZ in an exact location and is not willing to change those requirements. So that is not a problem with finding a house it is a problem with the buyer.

Antares35 · 13-06-2021 12:47pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

How can you say it is a housing crisis if Ireland has enough houses but they just don't have enough in the specific area that people want them in. Thats a housing location crisis.

Look at the example above. No houses in Waterford yet 326 available on the web, if you dig deeper the person probably wants XYZ in an exact location and is not willing to change those requirements. So that is not a problem with finding a house it is a problem with the buyer.

Could also be an affordably issue I suppose.

13-06-2021 1:30pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

It's not the thread. It's people reluctance to change. You are seeing the same habits repeated in people's experiences in different jobs. The most common factor is people themselves. People paint themselves into a corner often through habits.

The only reluctance to change I see is coming from those who are opposed to WFH for themselves.

The fact is that many people have already changed their "habits" and embraced new ones by WFH over the last fifteen months, and what they are reluctant to do is revert back to how they worked before the pandemic, long commutes, etc.

The thread is going in circles in the sense that the same arguments are being made over and over - on both sides, and there is not going to be any resolution found here as neither side is going to change the other's mind.

Antares35 · 13-06-2021 2:14pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only reluctance to change I see is coming from those who are opposed to WFH for themselves.

The fact is that many people have already changed their "habits" and embraced new ones by WFH over the last fifteen months, and what they are reluctant to do is revert back to how they worked before the pandemic, long commutes, etc.

The thread is going in circles in the sense that the same arguments are being made over and over - on both sides, and there is not going to be any resolution found here as neither side is going to change the other's mind.

If anything people will just become more entrenched in their views. I'm happy with my employer's proposal (best I could have hoped for tbh), but if I wasnt, I'd be looking at something else. And I think that's what people will have to do. If they are forced to WFH then they can either put up with it or move. Similarly if the boss insists on everyone back and that is unworkable for someone, they too will either have to put up or move. The same way it's works for any other "perks" for want of a better word. Pension, salary, location, career prospects, company ethos etc. All those things that dictate where you are willing to work. Home/ office based is just going to become one of those factors I think. Zero point staying put and complaining about it. Although many people do this their entire lives

Flinty997 · 13-06-2021 3:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only reluctance to change I see is coming from those who are opposed to WFH for themselves...

I was more remarking on how often people seem to accept poor working conditions and management, like constantly ringing you out of hours, or working out of hours. We've all ended up in job like that hopefully not for too long. But some people seem to have that in every job they do. While WFH doesn't cause those issues. You could see that someone who struggles to say no, or seek better conditions, would find it even harder if WFH. I guess that's just how preople are wired...

13-06-2021 5:04pm

State's tax rates a ‘major disincentive’ for remote workers, says Varakdar

Ireland must adapt as Facebook allows Irish staff work abroad, Tánaiste says

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-s-tax-rates-a-major-disincentive-for-remote-workers-says-varakdar-1.4591155

13-06-2021 6:08pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

I was more remarking on how often people seem to accept poor working conditions and management, like constantly ringing you out of hours, or working out of hours. We've all ended up in job like that hopefully not for too long. But some people seem to have that in every job they do. While WFH doesn't cause those issues. You could see that someone who struggles to say no, or seek better conditions, would find it even harder if WFH. I guess that's just how preople are wired...

If someone finds themselves accepting bad treatment, and especially if they keep finding themselves in the same position job after job like that then it definitely sounds more like a "them" problem.

Some people have tried to argue that "Your employer will see your home as an extension of the office" as a con against WFH, with one poster recently even going so far as to say no one should be given the choice in the matter.

The "right to switch off" is being made statutory. If someone has a problem with assertiveness, I'd consider that as a personal development issue they need to address - not a reason to argue against WFH for other people.

flipflophead22 · 14-06-2021 5:02pm

I am looking to relocate to spain early next year and wondered if i secure a remote role with a company do i just pay the tax in spain or?...

14-06-2021 5:19pm

flipflophead22 wrote: »

I am looking to relocate to spain early next year and wondered if i secure a remote role with a company do i just pay the tax in spain or?...

You pay tax in the country you're resident in.

flipflophead22 · 14-06-2021 5:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You pay tax in the country you're resident in.

gotcha, and do they have to have a legal entity there?

14-06-2021 5:56pm

flipflophead22 wrote: »

gotcha, and do they have to have a legal entity there?

I'm not sure, but I'd imagine your HR/payroll would have to sort out your tax payments? As opposed to having to have a legal entity. So it probably depends on whether they are setup for that.

Perhaps someone who knows more will come along and provide a better answer.

PhilOssophy · 14-06-2021 8:23pm

flipflophead22 wrote: »

gotcha, and do they have to have a legal entity there?

Virtually certain they have to have some presence in the country you are paying tax in.

C3PO · 15-06-2021 1:45pm

This thread has probably run it's course for now but I'd love to check back in a year and see what has actually transpired with WFH.

tooth*grinder · 15-06-2021 3:16pm

https://twitter.com/DubCham/status/1404767664380289025?s=20

Good old Dublin chamber of commerce. Never shy to shove both feet right into their faces.

Mrs OBumble · 15-06-2021 3:22pm

tooth*grinder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DubCham/status/1404767664380289025?s=20

Good old Dublin chamber of commerce. Never shy to shove both feet right into their faces.

So tell us your own thoughts, would you take a pay cut?

15-06-2021 3:25pm

tooth*grinder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DubCham/status/1404767664380289025?s=20

Good old Dublin chamber of commerce. Never shy to shove both feet right into their faces.

What an absurd question.

Burzum · 15-06-2021 3:30pm

Recently got told we can have 2days per week working from home, this is great as the commute to work for 5days a week would be a killer.

Would I take a paycut for full time remote working? Yes I would (obviously it would depend on the amount) anything more than 10% and I would need to seriously consider it, below this then yes as that would near enough equate to what I would be paying on travel for the month.
I know I would need to also factor in the cost of the extra electricity used etc but those costs would be outweighed by not needing to travel.

Infoanon · 15-06-2021 3:37pm

tooth*grinder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DubCham/status/1404767664380289025?s=20

Good old Dublin chamber of commerce. Never shy to shove both feet right into their faces.

Dublin Chamber of Commerce are a lobbying group by their own admission and have a vested interest in keeping people in their offices in the city.

Their kite flying of linking pay cuts to WFH flies in the face of all logic and should be seen for what it is - an attempt by a vested interest to push for pay cuts.

Sunny Disposition · 15-06-2021 4:47pm

Infoanon wrote: »

Dublin Chamber of Commerce are a lobbying group by their own admission and have a vested interest in keeping people in their offices in the city.

Their kite flying of linking pay cuts to WFH flies in the face of all logic and should be seen for what it is - an attempt by a vested interest to push for pay cuts.

Pay cuts are less likely if your job does go remote, rent is an overhead that's getting cut out. Cost cutting is the reason wfh makes sense for most office based businesses, stark as it may sound.

15-06-2021 4:51pm

Committed, entrenched anti-wfh types have the weirdest and most transparently nonsense arguments ive seen on boards since the 8th amendment was running

Patsy167 · 15-06-2021 5:15pm

The softly-softly approach of inviting workers back seems to be changing in certain industries.

"The boss of a US investment bank is cracking down on employees reluctant to return to work as restrictions ease.

Morgan Stanley chief executive James Gorman said: "If you can go into a restaurant in New York City, you can come into the office."

Speaking at a conference, Mr Gorman said he would be "very disappointed" if US-based workers had not returned by September.

It comes as a number of banks have taken a tough position on home-working."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57487963

15-06-2021 5:19pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

The softly-softly approach of inviting workers back seems to be changing in certain industries.

"The boss of a US investment bank is cracking down on employees reluctant to return to work as restrictions ease.

Morgan Stanley chief executive James Gorman said: "If you can go into a restaurant in New York City, you can come into the office."

Speaking at a conference, Mr Gorman said he would be "very disappointed" if US-based workers had not returned by September.

It comes as a number of banks have taken a tough position on home-working."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57487963

What about Irish banks?

15-06-2021 5:21pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

The softly-softly approach of inviting workers back seems to be changing in certain industries.

"The boss of a US investment bank is cracking down on employees reluctant to return to work as restrictions ease.

Morgan Stanley chief executive James Gorman said: "If you can go into a restaurant in New York City, you can come into the office."

Speaking at a conference, Mr Gorman said he would be "very disappointed" if US-based workers had not returned by September.

It comes as a number of banks have taken a tough position on home-working."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57487963

No change there at all. Multiple banks announced that a few months ago. Banks have never, ever been known as innovative or, for that matter, particularly caring when it comes to their own staff

Only one that seemed to buck the anti-WFH trend among the banks was our own AIB though there may be others

15-06-2021 5:23pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No change there at all. Multiple banks announced that a few months ago. Banks have never, ever been known as innovative or, for that matter, particularly caring when it comes to their own staff

Only one that seemed to buck the anti-WFH trend among the banks was our own AIB though there may be others

That's likely because AIB sold Bankcentre years ago and have been leasing ever since.

This is something I've been highlighting all along. If it makes financial sense to go to hybrid, companies will do it. In this case, it makes sense for AIB to make that change.

However, if a company owns their offices outright, it probably makes less sense, in the short term.

Infoanon · 15-06-2021 5:27pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

The softly-softly approach of inviting workers back seems to be changing in certain industries.

"The boss of a US investment bank is cracking down on employees reluctant to return to work as restrictions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57487963

Why would banks - investment banks in particular - want employees back in the office....

tooth*grinder · 15-06-2021 5:33pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So tell us your own thoughts, would you take a pay cut?

personal productivity up, company profits up - why in gods name would I?
I'm surprised you even bother posting here to be honest. You're clear on your feelings and agenda and good luck to you on them both.

ineedeuro · 15-06-2021 5:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That's likely because AIB sold Bankcentre years ago and have been leasing ever since.

This is something I've been highlighting all along. If it makes financial sense to go to hybrid, companies will do it. In this case, it makes sense for AIB to make that change.

However, if a company owns their offices outright, it probably makes less sense, in the short term.

They also rented an office which is a lot smaller. SO they can't actually have all the staff in at the same time as they dont have the space

Mrs OBumble · 15-06-2021 6:22pm

tooth*grinder wrote: »

I'm surprised you even bother posting here to be honest. You're clear on your feelings and agenda and good luck to you on them both.

So do you. And good luck to you too.

Let's see how things pan out in one, five and ten years ( very few companies can get out of existing leases quickly).

Remote working - the future?

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