Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Faugheen · 13-11-2019 1:51pm

awec wrote: »

I think people are taking issue with a cringeworthy Thornley article that suggests some poxy pro14 interpro matches are the beginning of some "healing process" for another world cup disaster.

It's vacuous bollocks from our rugby media, as if results in the tin pot league that our clubs play in really mitigates anything that's happened in 2019 for Ireland.

Because the start of the Pro14 IS the beginning of the healing process.

The players at the RWC are now back with their provinces. As disappointing as the RWC was, we have a new coach, we have no game until February and the players are now back with their provinces. The time to move forward is now.

You can still be annoyed with the RWC but Thornley saying the ‘healing process’ has begun isn’t a stupid thing to say. I’d say loads of those players couldn’t wait to get back playing with their provinces.

What on Earth is wrong with that? Should we all just keep bitching and moaning about it until the Six Nations?

Someone had a pop at Thornley’s article, someone had a different opinion, and then you came in with your ultra-defensive mind set. Nobody is out to offend you or to shoot you down. It’s a discussion forum.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 2:07pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Because the start of the Pro14 IS the beginning of the healing process.

The players at the RWC are now back with their provinces. As disappointing as the RWC was, we have a new coach, we have no game until February and the players are now back with their provinces. The time to move forward is now.

You can still be annoyed with the RWC but Thornley saying the ‘healing process’ has begun isn’t a stupid thing to say. I’d say loads of those players couldn’t wait to get back playing with their provinces.

What on Earth is wrong with that? Should we all just keep bitching and moaning about it until the Six Nations?

Someone had a pop at Thornley’s article, someone had a different opinion, and then you came in with your ultra-defensive mind set. Nobody is out to offend you or to shoot you down. It’s a discussion forum.

It is a stupid trite thing for Thornley to say. its not a healing process. the players barely play for their province as it is. the only healing they can have is in an international context in 10 or so weeks. As Sexton has admitted, this will never heal and will haunt them for the rest of their careers, if not lives. And why should some of them be allowed waltz in and heal. what has Murray, say, done to deserve starting this weekend? apart from having a central contract

awec · 13-11-2019 2:13pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Because the start of the Pro14 IS the beginning of the healing process.

The players at the RWC are now back with their provinces. As disappointing as the RWC was, we have a new coach, we have no game until February and the players are now back with their provinces. The time to move forward is now.

You can still be annoyed with the RWC but Thornley saying the ‘healing process’ has begun isn’t a stupid thing to say. I’d say loads of those players couldn’t wait to get back playing with their provinces.

What on Earth is wrong with that? Should we all just keep bitching and moaning about it until the Six Nations?

Someone had a pop at Thornley’s article, someone had a different opinion, and then you came in with your ultra-defensive mind set. Nobody is out to offend you or to shoot you down. It’s a discussion forum.

No it isn't, not even close. Who actually gives a crap about the Pro14 in this context? It is such an insignificance, it has no bearing on anything.

It's a totally daft stance to take, as if the pro14 is going to improve anyone's mood or make anyone feel better.

aloooof · 13-11-2019 2:55pm

awec wrote: »

No it isn't, not even close. Who actually gives a crap about the Pro14 in this context? It is such an insignificance, it has no bearing on anything.

It's a totally daft stance to take, as if the pro14 is going to improve anyone's mood or make anyone feel better.

I don't think that's at all what Thornley has suggested tho. The half-sentence again that seems to be rubbing people the wrong way:

...but maybe it also typified promising signs that the healing process has begun.

He adds a caveat with "maybe". And uses the word "process" which goes towards acknowledging this will take time.

In the very next paragraph he mentions how Conway and Ruddock will have been frustrated with their lack of gametime, and are in good shape continue their form and to not be overlooked in future. Which is exactly the type of thing people have been calling for.

It's half a sentence in a 1000 word piece. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some people have just read the headline and reacted to that without reading the piece itself.

Henry Ford III · 13-11-2019 3:00pm

IRFU have all the necessary resources to figure out what went wrong surely?

There'll be report after report flying around the place......

molloyjh · 13-11-2019 3:10pm

awec wrote: »

No it isn't, not even close. Who actually gives a crap about the Pro14 in this context? It is such an insignificance, it has no bearing on anything.

It's a totally daft stance to take, as if the pro14 is going to improve anyone's mood or make anyone feel better.

It has made me feel better. I've enjoyed watching rugby again which in itself is a big improvement.

Lots has been, and will be, said about the RWC failure. My own 2 cents is that a number of things went wrong that all contributed.

We looked to change our game and get more width on the ball while looking to play more in our own half. But for whatever reason we failed to implement that well. Primarily because our pack failed to deliver. Was that failure down to mindset or the fact they were being asked to do something different and they weren't able to deliver?

My best guess is mindset. We've heard that the QF became the focus at Christmas. The Henshaw to FB selection would suggest to me that was the case for players and coaches alike. They were happy to sacrifice the 6Ns if it meant getting to a SF. But that mindset ended up robbing us of our edge during the 6Ns and therefore the chance to build momentum.

Injuries to certain guys at certain times compounded that. Murray and Sexton getting injured pre-6Ns meant they either got dropped or had to find form during the 6Ns, neither of which was ideal. Add Carberys injury to that and we're struggling further in that department. I'm pretty sure Hendersons injury during the 6Ns similarly contributed. I reckon we had been looking to the Hendo-Ryan pairing prior to the 6Ns and that formed part of our new approach in terms if what the pack were delivering for us. Hendo is a better ball carrier than Toner and I think they wanted to exploit that.

So we're looking to change our game plan while moving away from our game by game approach and being hampered by injuries. This led to a poor 6Ns which robbed us of momentum and confidence. We looked close to getting that back a few times, but ultimately too much damage had been done.

I think, for me at least, it has shown that while we have developed and improved our depth, we are still a small country with a small playing pool. As a result we are still dependent on a core group of guys to ensure success. Former Former touched on it earlier. Best should have been dropped, but there was nobody better. With Sexton and Carbery as injury concerns we simply didnt have a 3rd international level 10 to get us through against Japan. And we saw the distinct lack of leadership in our inability to turn that game around as well as the difficulties we had against Russia (we never struggled in that game per se, but we struggled to be as dominant as we should have been in the middle 20-30 mins). We simply didnt have enough guys at the requisite level to take over from guys who were injured or on the way out.

An element of blame (and I hate the blame game) can be placed at the door of the coaches. Some at the players. But some of it is also down to our limitations in terms of squad depth, which is impossible to resolve in the short to medium term. And yet despite all of that, I still full believe that had we gotten the Welsh draw, i.e. France in the QF, we'd have made the SF. So theres a bit of luck in there too.

Former Former · 13-11-2019 3:14pm

awec wrote: »

Agree with bits of this for sure. I think Henshaw should have been sent home as soon as the injury hit. Agree about Kleyn and Beirne.

I think by the time the WC came round, the horse had already bolted in terms of rotating players out. IMO, the changes should have been ringing back in February / March, with real competition for spots being pushed, and we could have arrived in September with an in-form (or at least, more in-form that it was) team.

I would add a few more. Stockdale should have been dropped, he has been terrible all year. Conway was the form player here and should have been in. I'd have had Larmour in for Kearney this year. Not bringing Toner was a huge mistake as Henderson is just too inconsistent, and neither Kleyn nor Beirne are good enough.

But the players is really just one half of the issue. The tactics, the setup, it was all just wrong. We had been found out but did nothing to adapt to this fact. That one is squarely on the coaches.

Absolutely. OK we don't know what happened in the setup but the malaise was so pervasive that it had to be something systemic.

Tactics weren't great but again it goes back to our player pool. We don't have the bulk to grind the opposition into the dust and we don't have the athletes to run the legs off them. We are entirely dependent on an error-free, high intensity but ultimately uncomplicated game plan. When the errors crept in and the intensity dropped, what are you left with? Just the "uncomplicated" part and, clue in the name, that's very easy to counter.

Where we differ is what else Joe (or anyone else) could have done differently. I'm not sure there was a plan B that could have really improved things.

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 3:16pm

I think part of the problem why highs are so high and the lows are so low for Irish rugby media and fans is you are all old enough to remember the not too distant past. When the Irish were crap or at best inconsistent.

Now in recent history there has been some great results at club and international level. Consistency. Regularly winning. This resulted in a kind of euphoria. And hype. And belief. It's meant that when they have failed, the hurt and disappointment is that much worse.

aloooof · 13-11-2019 3:20pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I reckon we had been looking to the Hendo-Ryan pairing prior to the 6Ns and that formed part of our new approach in terms if what the pack were delivering for us. Hendo is a better ball carrier than Toner and I think they wanted to exploit that.

Great post. On this bit in particular, I think you're spot on. I think Joe wanted Henderson and Ryan in the 2nd row to add that carrying threat to the pack (along with Stander, Healy etc.) while still being able to get POM and VdF into the team.

molloyjh · 13-11-2019 3:21pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think part of the problem why highs are so high and the lows are so low for Irish rugby media and fans is you are all old enough to remember the not too distant past. When the Irish were crap or at best inconsistent.

Now in recent history there has been some great results at club and international level. Consistency. Regularly winning. This resulted in a kind of euphoria. And hype. And belief. It's meant that when they have failed, the hurt and disappointment is that much worse.

Probably, but I also think one big difference between us and teams that have made the SF is belief. NZ, SA, England, Wales and to a lesser extent (or lesser these days) Australia and France all fully believe that they can and will win the RWC. That kind of confidence, bordering on arrogance, is something we still dont have. Probably because of the fact that our successes are so recent and yet to show at the RWC. That has an impact on everything in terms of build up, prep and performance.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 3:30pm

Former Former wrote: »

We don't have the bulk to grind the opposition into the dust and we don't have the athletes to run the legs off them. We are entirely dependent on an error-free, high intensity but ultimately uncomplicated game plan.

we don't have the athletes now? so player pool, genetics, size. What other excuses can we rattle off?

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 4:14pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Probably, but I also think one big difference between us and teams that have made the SF is belief. NZ, SA, England, Wales and to a lesser extent (or lesser these days) Australia and France all fully believe that they can and will win the RWC. That kind of confidence, bordering on arrogance, is something we still dont have. Probably because of the fact that our successes are so recent and yet to show at the RWC. That has an impact on everything in terms of build up, prep and performance.

I think you are spot on with this. Except when it comes Australia. No lesser extent there. They absolutely believed they were going to win the world cup

You are right that those teams, their fans and media all believed that they were good enough to win the whole thing. In Ireland, there was the odd pundit that may have mentioned the possibility, the outside chance, the dream that maybe, just maybe Ireland could win but "sure, lets not get ahead of ourselves. We'll be happy with a semi-final spot." I felt that even the players and coaches played it down.

Dubinusa · 13-11-2019 4:25pm

Some good posts today! A lot of varying points being put forward. I think we're all disappointed and some of us are bitter. I've been watching Ireland since the 70's and the highs are phenomenal and the lows....
So, why did our team fail this rwc? Do we have the players? I believe we do. Are we chokers? Can we not handle pressure?
I think back to the HEC. Yearly we have teams in the qf's and even the sf's. We outperform the premiership, except for Saracens. We also hold our own with the top 14. So analyzing the national side and deciphering our poor rwc, I find it hard to reconcile that we don't have the athletes or the psyche.
Putting a finger on the problem is difficult. We don't know the problem. We can only guess. But, I think we erred in the selection and with tactics. In saying that, I think we failed to get our halves enough experience behind Sexton and Murray. This created a lack of confidence imo.
Speaking of Best. I just watched the Munster v Ulster match again and I thought Scannell was very good. Herring was not so good. I don't think that Best was that much better than Scannell, if at all.
Our entire year was poor! That's the problem. Why could we not reverse the trend? I think that's what most posters are concerned with! Our 1st match in Dublin against England, we were well beaten and looked slow and didn't get going at all. It was worse v Wales. We were almost nilled.
We failed to identify and correct these problems. It appears it was a perfect storm.
Rassie had less than 2 years to fix the Boks. He did so and they are world champions. We completely lost the plot and got worse all year.
So frustrating!

blinding · 13-11-2019 5:36pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

we don't have the athletes now? so player pool, genetics, size. What other excuses can we rattle off?

The other teams are better than us .

tryagain · 13-11-2019 8:28pm

We have the players but not the bottle it seems .

tryagain · 13-11-2019 8:52pm

I suppose the six nations was telling us the team had been figured out playing style wise .We should play form players going forward Conway should have started WC and Larmour possibly Mcgrath at scrumhalf Ruddock maybe thought our backrow was not at the races.
Hard to put finger on exact problem we just made so much mistakes v NZ when I started watching rugby years ago now, beating anybody was a plus we are going in right direction .

Former Former · 13-11-2019 8:58pm

tryagain wrote: »

We have the players but not the bottle it seems .

If you just watched the world cup and nothing else, this is the conclusion you would draw.

Shefwedfan · 13-11-2019 9:30pm

tryagain wrote: »

We have the players but not the bottle it seems .

Didn't bottle it in Twickenham to win a 6 nations, a stadium which many many many teams, Ireland and others have a long history of bottling it

I could give you loads of examples for Ireland and for provinces when the same players have not bottled it.....

So that statement would seem incorrect for majority of tournament

JRant · 13-11-2019 10:51pm

There seemed to be an apprehension within the entire set up this year. From the off against England all the way through to the NZ game. The players and coaches seemed to have the weight of the world on their shoulders the whole time. They didn't look to be enjoying any of their game time at all.

Was this a failure by the coaching team, absolutely. Could they have arrested this, maybe.

With any team sport, the psychological aspect is huge. If you're on the extended squad and can't get a start despite the player ahead of you doing poorly it has huge knock-on effects. The team moral drops and an "Us v Them" mentality can develop.
I think JS and his team should have acted far more swiftly and started to drop under performing players straight after the England game. That's not to say they get dropped from the panel entirely but a spell on the bench has a habit of sharpening up a players focus.

Dropping Toner felt like JS was trying to do just that but it was entirely the wrong time and player IMO. Similarly Carbery and Henshaw should have never been on the plane over either. Both were clearly long term injuries and bringing them also sent the wrong message. Sure a fit Henshaw is a terrific player but when's the last time he strung more than 2 games together. Carbery is good but not that good that Byrne should have been left out for a player with a banjaxed ankle.

All in all, I believe a number of small things conspired against us this year, unfortunately most of them were self inflicted.

tryagain · 13-11-2019 11:16pm

The 4 year cycle climax is what top international rugby players are judged on we don't bring it to the table at WC time not ever .So blinkered views are great but the results are there for all to see . I want us to succeed as much as anybody but I am not feeding myself false hope anymore we ain't doing it on a world stage when it matters in all honesty getting beaten by Japan was heartbreaking Connacht or Ulster should be able to beat Japan .I would think one of the Japanese players Thompson I think could barely walk off when subbed when beating us what effort what a warrior where are our warriors not one knockout win in the history of WC mad but true.

ionadnapokot · 13-11-2019 11:20pm

aloooof wrote: »

Great post. On this bit in particular, I think you're spot on. I think Joe wanted Henderson and Ryan in the 2nd row to add that carrying threat to the pack (along with Stander, Healy etc.) while still being able to get POM and VdF into the team.

Joe selected that exact pack in the first game in Paris for the Grand Slam 6N. Henderson got injured v Italy.
Ireland had been slowly evolving to that possession based game in the 2017 6N and away from the kick for territory game. Ryan was the key factor.

What we saw in the WC was a continuation of this game plan with more emphasis on offloads (Jap game).

We should have lost that game in Paris because we couldn’t get any go forward or put it through the hands in the rain.

Same in 6N Cardiff ‘19 but with glaringly obvious fact that Murray and Sexton were and continued to be a shadow of their former bests.
And it was the same for Rory Best.

This simple fact is what underpins whatever take there is going on the the fall from the fantastic performances in beating England & NZ to the humiliating performance v NZ

Podge_irl · 13-11-2019 11:37pm

tryagain wrote: »

Connacht or Ulster should be able to beat Japan.

This is patently not true. Unless you think Connacht should run rampant against Scotland and make a decent fist against South Africa. The views people have on Japan simply do not correlate with what we actually saw from them in the tournament.

JRant · 13-11-2019 11:45pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Joe selected that exact pack in the first game in Paris for the Grand Slam 6N. Henderson got injured v Italy.
Ireland had been slowly evolving to that possession based game in the 2017 6N and away from the kick for territory game. Ryan was the key factor.

What we saw in the WC was a continuation of this game plan with more emphasis on offloads (Jap game).

We should have lost that game in Paris because we couldn’t get any go forward or put it through the hands in the rain.

Same in 6N Cardiff ‘19 but with glaringly obvious fact that Murray and Sexton were and continued to be a shadow of their former bests.
And it was the same for Rory Best.

This simple fact is what underpins whatever take there is going on the the fall from the fantastic performances in beating England & NZ to the humiliating performance v NZ

Sexton was just too easy to nullify IMO. Murray was out of form and if you want to play a more expansive offloading game then he is not the scrum half to use. Add into the mix that the backrow he kept picking isn't the one for that game plan either. CJ is great for dirty ball but never goes for the soft shoulder to offload. POM, well he had a very poor year by his standards and like CJ just can't seem to pass a ball. VDF is terrific but had to play a different role and concentrate on the defensive side far too often.

When the opposition know that the backrow and scrum half offer little too no threat it makes defending against us a hell of a lot easier.

Sure Sexton wasn't at his best but honestly I don't know any out half that could thrive in those situations.

Eoin · 14-11-2019 12:22am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

I don't buy that. It's not as if we've not regularly beaten teams who have made a SF, and I'm not sure that each SF has featured the best 4 teams.

Perhaps we've been unfortunate in some of our QF draws - either SA/NZ would have been a big ask, regardless of how we'd performed over the last year. But when you look at some of the teams who have made a QF, we are better than that.

sydthebeat · 14-11-2019 12:25am

Eoin wrote: »

I don't buy that. It's not as if we've not regularly beaten teams who have made a SF.

We regularly beat England, new Zealand, South africa and Wales??

Since when?

ionadnapokot · 14-11-2019 12:47am

JRant wrote: »

Sexton was just too easy to nullify IMO. Murray was out of form and if you want to play a more expansive offloading game then he is not the scrum half to use. Add into the mix that the backrow he kept picking isn't the one for that game plan either. CJ is great for dirty ball but never goes for the soft shoulder to offload. POM, well he had a very poor year by his standards and like CJ just can't seem to pass a ball. VDF is terrific but had to play a different role and concentrate on the defensive side far too often.

When the opposition know that the backrow and scrum half offer little too no threat it makes defending against us a hell of a lot easier.

Sure Sexton wasn't at his best but honestly I don't know any out half that could thrive in those situations.

Not so sure that the pack were to blame for the half-backs woes.
Best was on the slide since 6N 18' & put in his last great performance v NZ that year. But i would say that CJ, Healy & VdF were all playing better in the WC v '18. For all the flak PO'M is getting he wasnt far off his 2018 performances.

edit
Hopefully we can unearth some more ball carrying options in the pack that will encourage Farrell to build upon a great ruck team with the capability to offload and give defensive line breaks and options for the half-backs to launch from.
Kelleher looks primed fro this - He should be fast tracked.

Eoin · 14-11-2019 12:59am

sydthebeat wrote: »

We regularly beat England, new Zealand, South africa and Wales??

Since when?

We have beaten Wales, England and France regularly enough to suggest (to me at least) that we shouldn't consider a semi-final appearance an unreasonable goal.

And we've beaten all those teams away on the final weekend of the 6N to win the comp in recent years, so those results can't be dismissed like many dismiss the wins against NZ as "just friendlies". And then there's a healthy record against Argentina and Scotland who have also made the semis when we haven't.

So far our limit of a QF puts us in the company of Japan, Western Samoa, Canada and Fiji. Do you not think that we should be doing better than that?

I didn't mean to imply that we beat all of this year's semi-finalists most of the time.

Podge_irl · 14-11-2019 12:59am

sydthebeat wrote: »

We regularly beat England, new Zealand, South africa and Wales??

Since when?

Since about 2004?

We are 10-6 against England in that time period in the 6N and 8-8-1 against Wales in 6N & RWC matches. We are 6-4 against South Africa in that time period also.

ionadnapokot · 14-11-2019 1:28am

JRant wrote: »

Sexton was just too easy to nullify IMO. Murray was out of form and if you want to play a more expansive offloading game then he is not the scrum half to use. Add into the mix that the backrow he kept picking isn't the one for that game plan either. CJ is great for dirty ball but never goes for the soft shoulder to offload. POM, well he had a very poor year by his standards and like CJ just can't seem to pass a ball. VDF is terrific but had to play a different role and concentrate on the defensive side far too often.

When the opposition know that the backrow and scrum half offer little too no threat it makes defending against us a hell of a lot easier.

Sure Sexton wasn't at his best but honestly I don't know any out half that could thrive in those situations.

Just thinking on what you were saying on the BRow and SH.

I would also reckon that Ireland suffered as a result of not having a BR that offer a World Class threat with ball in hand. & also agree that with Murray not a breaking threat anymore defences mostly decided not to resource the ruck (Ireland's obvious strength); pillars only, with the focus on filling the line and blitzing Sexton and cutting off his options.

This was exacerbated by Murrays poor speed off the deck and poor quality of pass to Sexton or a hapless forward.

Hopefully we see a bit more willingness to link and offload between the forwards. I remember Ryan and Leavy had a few lovely little link-ups.
Again....get Kelleher in!

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 12:38pm

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2019/1111/1090085-ireland-management-must-make-mark-quickly-lancaster/

So even Stu, friends with Andy, thinks he will be under immediate pressure.

Yet we haven't even heard a peep from Farrell

Podge_irl · 14-11-2019 12:46pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yet we haven't even heard a peep from Farrell

Why would we? You never hear a peep from international coaches unless there are, you know, international matches going on.

Gonad · 14-11-2019 1:40pm

The lads on OTB making a good point about Aki. If he goes to France he is off the IRFU books and we can still use him for Ireland . Maybe a new rule where players born outside Ireland can play for Ireland if they put a few years in with Ireland first ?

ClanofLams · 14-11-2019 1:51pm

The unwritten rule of having to play in Ireland to get selected for Ireland is not gonna change anytime soon. The only chance of it ever changing will be if there is fairly widespread exodus of first XV players. The amount of discussion around something that has no chance of changing in the foreseeable future is bizarre.

Faugheen · 14-11-2019 2:01pm

Gonad wrote: »

The lads on OTB making a good point about Aki. If he goes to France he is off the IRFU books and we can still use him for Ireland . Maybe a new rule where players born outside Ireland can play for Ireland if they put a few years in with Ireland first ?

Jesus Christ.

If you want to play for Ireland, you play in Ireland.

whatawaster · 14-11-2019 2:11pm

Gonad wrote: »

The lads on OTB making a good point about Aki. If he goes to France he is off the IRFU books and we can still use him for Ireland . Maybe a new rule where players born outside Ireland can play for Ireland if they put a few years in with Ireland first ?

Don't know why we would break our rule for Aki - he's a good player, but not a nailed on starter.

We broke it for Sexton because he is one of our best ever players and he negotiated special terms in his contract to be released for International camps. Even with that, it was a different time, and I don't think even Sexton would get that special treatment today.

14-11-2019 2:21pm

Gonad wrote: »

The lads on OTB making a good point about Aki. If he goes to France he is off the IRFU books and we can still use him for Ireland . Maybe a new rule where players born outside Ireland can play for Ireland if they put a few years in with Ireland first ?

I want this to happen just to see Luke Fitzgerald's reaction

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 2:52pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

The unwritten rule of having to play in Ireland to get selected for Ireland is not gonna change anytime soon. The only chance of it ever changing will be if there is fairly widespread exodus of first XV players. The amount of discussion around something that has no chance of changing in the foreseeable future is bizarre.

The lack of flexibility and discussion and dismissals such as yours, is frankly bizarre

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 2:54pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Jesus Christ.

If you want to play for Ireland, you play in Ireland.

Jesus Christ yourself, lets see if Aki goes, thats three world class players playing abroad. It soon will be a torrent i think. We are just going to be producing too many players to hang onto them all.

Mind boggling the reaction of some people to any outside the box thinking, despite having been proven wrong, time and again. Maybe it is time for Irish rugby to allow a Welsh/aussie rule

We've had numerous stuff come out recently that has made some posters on here look foolish. Gatland and others with insider knowledge confirming the facts about Joe's paranoia and dictatorial style, Trimble, McCloskey, Reddan, Zebo, Ross all confirming stuff that was dismissed on here as "bizarre" thinking.

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 2:57pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Jesus Christ yourself, lets see if Aki goes, thats three world class players playing abroad. It soon will be a torrent i think. We are just going to be producing too many players to hang onto them all.

Mind boggling the reaction of some people to any outside the box thinking, despite having been proven wrong, time and again. Maybe it is time for Irish rugby to allow a Welsh/aussie rule

Who are the three?

errlloyd · 14-11-2019 2:59pm

I wish there was another way we could do it.

IRFU sign a deal with Racing or the Chiefs, or wherever to allow Irish players to go over there and still be released. I think the NZRU have a deal with Quins of that nature. Not to make money, but to slightly increase the breath of institutional knowledge available to the national team.

aloooof · 14-11-2019 2:59pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

The lack of flexibility and discussion and dismissals such as yours, is frankly bizarre

Niallof9 wrote: »

Jesus Christ yourself, lets see if Aki goes, thats three world class players playing abroad. It soon will be a torrent i think. We are just going to be producing too many players to hang onto them all.

Mind boggling the reaction of some people to any outside the box thinking, despite having been proven wrong, time and again. Maybe it is time for Irish rugby to allow a Welsh/aussie rule

There's a difference between saying you want it to happen and the likelihood if it happening.

But nothing we have seen from the IRFU over the last number of years suggests this unwritten rule is likely to change any time soon. Which is all ClanOfLams was pointing out. Whether you like it or not, he's right.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 3:00pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Who are the three?

Sean O Brien (32, and perhaps his op has worked) Zebo and now Aki.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 3:02pm

aloooof wrote: »

There's a difference between saying you want it to happen and the likelihood if it happening.

But nothing we have seen from the IRFU over the last number of years suggests this unwritten rule is likely to change any time soon. Which is all ClanOfLams was pointing out. Whether you like it or not, he's right.

No, he said it was bizarre. Its bloody not. Yes we have the best system at the moment. Maybe the provinces fall apart without it. But we have failed in multiple World Cups, its time to have a new discussion. Why was Sexton the only one to get a pass? Why not have a 50 cap rule?

But where it breaks down is take Murray, on 750k. Whos to say he doesn't have another **** season. What do we do then? Casey and those lads will never break through.

Its why i am against central contracts myself. The central contract lads are getting give them deus ex machina abilities i think . Look at Porter, what happens if he has a monster season, while Furlong is on nearly a million. Its unsustainable.

aloooof · 14-11-2019 3:04pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

No, he said it was bizarre. Its bloody not. Yes we have the best system at the moment. But we have failed in multiple World Cups, its time to have a new discussion. Why was Sexton the only one to get a pass?

But where it breaks down is take Murray, on 750k. Whos to say he doesn't have another **** season. What do we do then? Casey and those lads will never break through.

Its why i am against central contracts myself. The central contract lads are getting give them deus ex machina abilities i think . Look at Porter, what happens if he has a monster season, while Furlong is on nearly a million. Its unsustainable.

Sorry, what? Are you suggesting centrally contracted players have to be selected for Ireland? If a player doesn't play well enough, Farrell is perfectly entitled to drop him. I don't really see what you're getting at?

Dave_The_Sheep · 14-11-2019 3:05pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Sean O Brien (32, and perhaps his op has worked) Zebo and now Aki.

Only one of those players is/was world class.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 3:05pm

aloooof wrote: »

Sorry, what? Are you suggesting centrally contracted players have to be selected for Ireland?

Yes i am and i think you'll soon realise that with the first 6 nations team to start.

And don't give me Toner he was dropped.

Its a factor i think, who's to say there isn't clauses involved?

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 3:07pm

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Only one of those players is/was world class.

World Class in an Irish context

Yes only SOB was true world class

We aren't good enough to be cutting these sorts of lads at all. Aki and Zebo, despite your opinion are class players.

I think it will be soon enough as Munster and Ulster fans grow tired of getting Leinster players . What is it 6 out of Munsters squad is home grown now?

aloooof · 14-11-2019 3:07pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yes i am and i think you'll soon realise that with the first 6 nations team to start.

And don't give me Toner he was dropped.

Its a factor i think, who's to say there isn't clauses involved?

Great, I presume you have evidence to back this up? And wasn't Jack McGrath on a central contract for awhile?

Dave_The_Sheep · 14-11-2019 3:09pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

World Class in an Irish context

So not "world class". More a kind of national class.

14-11-2019 3:10pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Jesus Christ yourself, lets see if Aki goes, thats three world class players playing abroad. It soon will be a torrent i think. We are just going to be producing too many players to hang onto them all.

Mind boggling the reaction of some people to any outside the box thinking, despite having been proven wrong, time and again. Maybe it is time for Irish rugby to allow a Welsh/aussie rule

We've had numerous stuff come out recently that has made some posters on here look foolish. Gatland and others with insider knowledge confirming the facts about Joe's paranoia and dictatorial style, Trimble, McCloskey, Reddan, Zebo, Ross all confirming stuff that was dismissed on here as "bizarre" thinking.

Whats this?

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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