Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Who are the three?

Sean O Brien (32, and perhaps his op has worked) Zebo and now Aki.

aloooof wrote: »

There's a difference between saying you want it to happen and the likelihood if it happening.

But nothing we have seen from the IRFU over the last number of years suggests this unwritten rule is likely to change any time soon. Which is all ClanOfLams was pointing out. Whether you like it or not, he's right.

No, he said it was bizarre. Its bloody not. Yes we have the best system at the moment. Maybe the provinces fall apart without it. But we have failed in multiple World Cups, its time to have a new discussion. Why was Sexton the only one to get a pass? Why not have a 50 cap rule?

But where it breaks down is take Murray, on 750k. Whos to say he doesn't have another **** season. What do we do then? Casey and those lads will never break through.

Its why i am against central contracts myself. The central contract lads are getting give them deus ex machina abilities i think . Look at Porter, what happens if he has a monster season, while Furlong is on nearly a million. Its unsustainable.

Niallof9 wrote: »

No, he said it was bizarre. Its bloody not. Yes we have the best system at the moment. But we have failed in multiple World Cups, its time to have a new discussion. Why was Sexton the only one to get a pass?

But where it breaks down is take Murray, on 750k. Whos to say he doesn't have another **** season. What do we do then? Casey and those lads will never break through.

Its why i am against central contracts myself. The central contract lads are getting give them deus ex machina abilities i think . Look at Porter, what happens if he has a monster season, while Furlong is on nearly a million. Its unsustainable.

Sorry, what? Are you suggesting centrally contracted players have to be selected for Ireland? If a player doesn't play well enough, Farrell is perfectly entitled to drop him. I don't really see what you're getting at?

Dave_The_Sheep

Niallof9 wrote: »

Sean O Brien (32, and perhaps his op has worked) Zebo and now Aki.

Only one of those players is/was world class.

aloooof wrote: »

Sorry, what? Are you suggesting centrally contracted players have to be selected for Ireland?

Yes i am and i think you'll soon realise that with the first 6 nations team to start.

And don't give me Toner he was dropped.

Its a factor i think, who's to say there isn't clauses involved?

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Only one of those players is/was world class.

World Class in an Irish context

Yes only SOB was true world class

We aren't good enough to be cutting these sorts of lads at all. Aki and Zebo, despite your opinion are class players.

I think it will be soon enough as Munster and Ulster fans grow tired of getting Leinster players . What is it 6 out of Munsters squad is home grown now?

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yes i am and i think you'll soon realise that with the first 6 nations team to start.

And don't give me Toner he was dropped.

Its a factor i think, who's to say there isn't clauses involved?

Great, I presume you have evidence to back this up? And wasn't Jack McGrath on a central contract for awhile?

Dave_The_Sheep

Niallof9 wrote: »

World Class in an Irish context

So not "world class". More a kind of national class.

[Deleted User]

Niallof9 wrote: »

Jesus Christ yourself, lets see if Aki goes, thats three world class players playing abroad. It soon will be a torrent i think. We are just going to be producing too many players to hang onto them all.

Mind boggling the reaction of some people to any outside the box thinking, despite having been proven wrong, time and again. Maybe it is time for Irish rugby to allow a Welsh/aussie rule

We've had numerous stuff come out recently that has made some posters on here look foolish. Gatland and others with insider knowledge confirming the facts about Joe's paranoia and dictatorial style, Trimble, McCloskey, Reddan, Zebo, Ross all confirming stuff that was dismissed on here as "bizarre" thinking.

Whats this?

Riskymove

I know, lets have another conversation about Zebo

jaysus lads

aloooof wrote: »

Great, I presume you have evidence to back this up?

No and do you have evidence to say its wrong? Circumstantial evidence and the obviousness points to it being the case. I don't think the bean counters would be happy paying somebody 750k, only to be upsurped?

Tommy Bowe was in squads right up to his injury.

Player A sits down with IRFU..oh you want me to stay..sure 500k and this clause here guaranteeing me a central contract and inclusion in squads. Its chicken and egg...which came first. And again this applies to the top top marketable players regardless of form. Toner doesn't fit in here. Nor Mcgrath. So Furlong, POM, Kearney, Murray, Sexton. It seems only injury can stop the money train. In another sport they'd be transferred out or released. That can't happen here. Fair play to Sean the irfu imo ****ed him. Ditto with Zebo. Ringfencing the wrong lads

Yeah yeah i know its bizarre right.

I'm arguing that central contracts need to be rejigged to provincial and that certain players with a minimum cap haul can go abroad, provided they get favorable release terms.

P.Walnuts

Niallof9 wrote: »

World Class in an Irish context

Ehhhhhh.....what?

Niallof9 wrote: »

No and do you have evidence to say its wrong? Circumstantial evidence and the obviousness points to it being the case. I don't think the bean counters would be happy paying somebody 750k, only to be upsurped?

Tommy Bowe was in squads right up to his injury.

Player A sits down with IRFU..oh you want me to stay..sure 500k and this clause here guaranteeing me a central contract and inclusion in squads. Its chicken and egg...which came first.

Yeah yeah i know its bizarre right.

Burden of proof is on the one making the (ridiculous) claim. Just like equally you've no proof that Murray is on 750k and Furlong is on a million. You're just firing out things, asserting them as true, when you have no idea whatsoever whether they are or not.

Deleted User wrote: »

Whats this?

Well Trimble said the camp can be unpleasant.

Gatland has said that people in the IRFU camp told him to stop as Schmidt would get so wound up, which Brendan Fanning corroborated in an unrelated incident in Australia.

Ross said you can't deviate from the four page plan, as did Reddan.

McCloskey said Joe didn't fancy him, as did Zebo. Two points that were consistently dismissed on here.

Over the years people have suggested these things as problems and they were all dismissed like this contract thing. Thrown away comments such as bizarre etc.

It really pisses me off that things can be backed up in a way and are just dismissed out of hand by some. Despite the fact we have just ****ed up at another world cup.

But , yeah, healing i know...

Shefwedfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

Sean O Brien (32, and perhaps his op has worked) Zebo and now Aki.

Ahh come on, SOB was World Class and I love the guy but he is hardly that anymore. huge amount of minutes on the clock

Zebo? maybe to Munster fans....he is very good player but not World Class

Aki is not World Class. He is very good but plenty of better centres in the World

Ireland still has very few WC players. Murray and Sexton would have been but not anymore> Furlong would still be in with a shout but Sinklar after WC is probably ahead of him.

We have a huge array of excellent players.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ahh come on, SOB was World Class and I love the guy but he is hardly that anymore. huge amount of minutes on the clock

Zebo? maybe to Munster fans....he is very good player but not World Class

Aki is not World Class. He is very good but plenty of better centres in the World

Ireland still has very few WC players. Murray and Sexton would have been but not anymore> Furlong would still be in with a shout but Sinklar after WC is probably ahead of him.

We have a huge array of excellent players.

We agree here. I think a good few of the lads are overrated. Zebo and Aki are international class is what i should have said World class on an Irish basis - both good enough to command 500k plus contracts.

But this is my problem, if a guy goes off the boil how do we move on from him. Murray for example. Hopefully he comes back, but if not? The lads on serious wedge (deservedly so) but when does that run out? When does his "world class" central contract, undroppable aura finish? Like when he took over from Stringer...i personally don't think we'll see that again. The Larmour call in the WC was that and it was botched. I think CC and sponsorship play a part.

Niallof9 wrote: »

We agree here. But this is my problem, if a guy goes off the boil how do we move on from him. Murray for example.

You pick someone else.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Hopefully he comes back, but if not? The lads on serious wedge (deservedly so) but when does that run out?

At the end of his contract.

This is all really basic stuff.

aloooof wrote: »

You pick someone else.

At the end of his contract.

This is all really basic stuff.

Like Larmour was picked yeah? So he keeps getting picked regardless. Until it runs out..and i didn't mean literally. I mean that the factors that allowed him take over from Stringer are quickly disappearing. He's on so much money, with very good deals and a strong hand that Casey hasn't a chance. We get platitudes of "ah if he's good enough"..now Murray is world class but he has to have a good season. Ditto Henshaw. Jimmy O'Brien is the Casey in that case. We need to be ruthless. Naholo is 28 and already running amok . Julian Savea is still a beast. Not even in the picture in NZ. We'll be playing Murray and Henshaw till they are 38 if this continues.

We're ringfencing lads and then backing ourselves into corners and thinking like we're back in Eddie's "golden generation" that we've nobody else. We're already hearing things like Kellehers not old enough, Ryan too young to captain.

It this type of thinking that makes me hope Aki goes.

Its all basic stuff, sure. Look we'll never agree so lets just stop.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its a factor i think, who's to say there isn't clauses involved?

Anyone with an ounce of common sense?

Niallof9 wrote: »

No and do you have evidence to say its wrong? Circumstantial evidence and the obviousness points to it being the case. I don't think the bean counters would be happy paying somebody 750k, only to be upsurped?

Salaries are a sunk cost. Not that I believe for a second this happens, but if it did any coach with an ounce of self-respect would tell them to sod off. The IRFU want to win - if they accomplish that with a bunch of 21 year olds while all the highly paid players are sitting on their arse they won't care one bit.

Centrally contracted players have been dropped out of squads in the past. It is irregular but has happened. So any talk of contract clauses or IRFU policies is stupid.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Anyone with an ounce of common sense?

Ok there we go, sure dismiss out of hand. Like people are doing with the off the ball comments. Ok sure we'll see. Like yeah its very unlikely i know. but the ball is in the court of the central contract holder, no matter what form. And i think its wrong.

I hope Aki goes as i think it will blow it all open

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ok there we go, sure dismiss out of hand. Like people are doing with the off the ball comments.

Dismiss out of hand the possibility that players are signing contracts with clauses guaranteeing them selection? Yes I will because it is a mind-numbingly stupid idea. There is not a sports team on the planet who would agree to that.

sydthebeat

Gatland himself, seeing as posters want to quote him... says that the IRFU system is the envy of the rugby world, akin to the NZ system.

It would be the death knell of irish rugby to allow our best players go overseas for higher wages, but still reward them with selection for ireland.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Dismiss out of hand the possibility that players are signing contracts with clauses guaranteeing them selection? Yes I will because it is a mind-numbingly stupid idea. There is not a sports team on the planet who would agree to that.

So can you explain the continued selection of out of form central contract holders, consistently going back to Eddie's time? And i said squad selection, not team. Anyway a central contract, even without a clause (whic i agree doesn't likely exist) guarantee them a berth in nearly every case.

There's not many sports teams on the planet that would create a two tier system with special ring fenced contracts. 11 sweetheart deals out of 172, especially when half of them are highly questionable. Most reward form and the best players. We've had only a few players over the years that are the best of the best. Drico, Paulie, ROG, Sexton, Murray, SOB and Furlong. Heaslip perhaps.

Faugheen

Niallof9 wrote: »

Jesus Christ yourself, lets see if Aki goes, thats three world class players playing abroad. It soon will be a torrent i think. We are just going to be producing too many players to hang onto them all.

Mind boggling the reaction of some people to any outside the box thinking, despite having been proven wrong, time and again. Maybe it is time for Irish rugby to allow a Welsh/aussie rule

We've had numerous stuff come out recently that has made some posters on here look foolish. Gatland and others with insider knowledge confirming the facts about Joe's paranoia and dictatorial style, Trimble, McCloskey, Reddan, Zebo, Ross all confirming stuff that was dismissed on here as "bizarre" thinking.

Let’s just let them all go for whatever money they want and weaken the provinces why don’t we?

You have absolutely zero foresight here. If you bend the rule for one player then it opens the floodgates for many of them to leave.

If you want to play for Ireland you play in Ireland. It’s a rule that has kept all the best players at the provinces and I, as a Leinster fan, much rather it that way because I support my province before I support my country, and I’m sure I speak for a lot of people when I say that whether they’re from Dublin, Limerick, Belfast or Galway.

Why would you risk that for someone who is past it (SOB), not that good (Zebo) or someone who isn’t a nailed on starter (Aki)? It makes absolutely zero sense and anyone who wants to see this is a selfish fan, rather than a fan of Irish Rugby.

Irish Rugby isn’t just about the national team. The sooner some people realise that the better.

Niallof9 wrote: »

So can you explain the continued selection of out of form central contract holders, consistently going back to Eddie's time?

There's not many sports teams on the planet that would alienate half their squad with special ring fenced contracts. 11 sweetheart deals out of 172, especially when half of them are highly questionable. Most reward form.

Central contracts are given to the players who are being consistently selected and who the coach thinks are the best. The coach continues to trust these players and keeps selecting them. This is not rocket science. Fans the world over in every sport tend to want to change teams more than the coach does.

Eddie and Kidney in particular never showed any real inclination towards rotation in selection. Schmidt has shown a bit more, but even at Leinster he would never touch the spine of his team if he could avoid it.

I don't know what on earth you think is in these contracts, but there isn't some massive difference between them and provincial contracts. Every contract is ultimately an IRFU contract.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Central contracts are given to the players who are being consistently selected and who the coach thinks are the best. The coach continues to trust these players and keeps selecting them. This is not rocket science. Fans the world over in every sport tend to want to change teams more than the coach does.

Eddie and Kidney in particular never showed any real inclination towards rotation in selection. Schmidt has shown a bit more, but even at Leinster he would never touch the spine of his team if he could avoid it.

I don't know what on earth you think is in these contracts, but there isn't some massive difference between them and provincial contracts. Every contract is ultimately an IRFU contract.

What other nations only give 11 or so central contracts? And they are hardly going to the best of the best.

I understand how they work which is why i think they should remove the central contract notion and just say they are provincial and pay them whatever. The CC idea is pr puff that must, surely have an impact on morale. If the injuries can now be protected do the same with contracts.

blinding

Might be better spreading the money over say 30 players and having a bonus system for actually playing and performing for Ireland .

jacothelad

whatawaster wrote: »

Don't know why we would break our rule for Aki - he's a good player, but not a nailed on starter.

We broke it for Sexton because he is one of our best ever players and he negotiated special terms in his contract to be released for International camps. Even with that, it was a different time, and I don't think even Sexton would get that special treatment today.

The rule wasn't broken for Sexton. It didn't 'apply' when he went to France. Guys like Geordan Murphy, Simon and Guy Easterby and Johne Murphy were selected while playing outside Ireland. The decision to only use home based players was introduced while Sexton was abroad and it is a sound one for two reasons.

1) It makes our provinces likely to be stronger, more successful and therefore more lucrative as they should have the top players available. This 'reason' is massively diluted by how infrequently some of the better players play in the League.

2) The players are always available for Ireland training camps.