Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Jump_In_Jack

I don't know why we have to have a long-running captain anyway, why can't we select the best team to play and then select the captain for that day? Worked well like that for every team I've ever played on anyway.

FWIW, if we are looking for captain material, I think CJ Stander is the stand out candidate.

Interested Observer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I don't know why we have to have a long-running captain anyway, why can't we select the best team to play and then select the captain for that day? Worked well like that for every team I've ever played on anyway.

FWIW, if we are looking for captain material, I think CJ Stander is the stand out candidate.

Another player who shouldn't have been in the team for significant portions of the season. How does this make sense?

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Large section of media are Munster fans, RTÉ for one, Pom could lie down in middle of pitch for entire game and do nothing and they would find a positive.....

I don’t know how many times they said “Pom needs a big game this week”, no big game and said comments the following week

I read the Sunday World after Japan game and the main review was exMjnster player and had him MOM....

For the standard fan they have no idea and just go by media. It will be the first test of Farrell and I will be disappointed if he goes with POM.....

I don’t want Sexton either, Hendy has done it for Ulster so could be in with a shout? The Ryan is too young camp is incorrect imo.....

Front row is a good place to start, anyone for Furlong?

The hyperbole doesn't really help your argument, tbh.

POM constantly gets a hammering here, so I know I'm opening myself to abuse by defending him, but I thought he had a decent tournament, nowhere near as bad as is being made out on here.

1. Against Scotland, he disrupted their lineout pretty constantly and played a crucial role in the first 2 tries.

2. Against Japan, he had a good first 30 minutes or so (and then admittedly faded, much like the rest of the team).

3. Against Russia, take a look at the couple of phases ~ 6min mark; he gets 2 turnovers, and passes off the ground in a 1 min window (after Kleyn sloppily lost it). I don't think we have another forward who can do that. (It then gets pulled back for an earlier offside).

4. Against Samoa, he played really well when he came on.

5. Against NZ, he had some good moments (the lineout steal and jackal in particular in short succession) but coupled with that silly penalty right before half time. He was among our better players on a pretty terrible day.

Before the NZ game, Jamie Heaslip mentioned him (along with VdF) as having a good tournament.

IAmTheReign

Interested Observer wrote: »

Another player who shouldn't have been in the team for significant portions of the season. How does this make sense?

In fairness if you're going to pick the next Ireland captain based on performances this season it's a very short list.

I was only looking at this yesterday and there aren't that many players in the Ireland team that stand out as leaders to me, especially with Best retiring. O'Mahony, Stander & Sexton seem the obvious choices but I think we should be looking at other options come the 6N.

Personally if Ruddock can stay fit and is in good form I'd like to see him get it. Former u20s captain and has captained both Leinster and Ireland in the past. Maybe with an eye on handing it off to Ryan in a year or two if he keeps improving.

Vinnie222

IAmTheReign wrote: »

In fairness if you're going to pick the next Ireland captain based on performances this season it's a very short list.

I was only looking at this yesterday and there aren't that many players in the Ireland team that stand out as leaders to me, especially with Best retiring. O'Mahony, Stander & Sexton seem the obvious choices but I think we should be looking at other options come the 6N.

Personally if Ruddock can stay fit and is in good form I'd like to see him get it. Former u20s captain and has captained both Leinster and Ireland in the past. Maybe with an eye on handing it off to Ryan in a year or two if he keeps improving.

Needs to be someone that's a guaranteed starter

Wegians89

IAmTheReign wrote: »

In fairness if you're going to pick the next Ireland captain based on performances this season it's a very short list.

I was only looking at this yesterday and there aren't that many players in the Ireland team that stand out as leaders to me, especially with Best retiring. O'Mahony, Stander & Sexton seem the obvious choices but I think we should be looking at other options come the 6N.

Personally if Ruddock can stay fit and is in good form I'd like to see him get it. Former u20s captain and has captained both Leinster and Ireland in the past. Maybe with an eye on handing it off to Ryan in a year or two if he keeps improving.

Thing about ruddock and o’mahoney, the back row is so competitive and I’m not sure either are/should be first choice. I think ruddock should have played more ahead of Pom this season but with younger lads likely to burst into international camp both might drop down the pecking order. It might be too soon for him but James Ryan is really the only option. Only player who truest deserves to be first name on each team sheet

Skyfloater

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Needs to be someone that's a guaranteed starter

Then there's only two candidates, Ryan and Furlong.

IAmTheReign

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Needs to be someone that's a guaranteed starter

Wegians89 wrote: »

Thing about ruddock and o’mahoney, the back row is so competitive and I’m not sure either are/should be first choice. I think ruddock should have played more ahead of Pom this season but with younger lads likely to burst into international camp both might drop down the pecking order. It might be too soon for him but James Ryan is really the only option. Only player who truest deserves to be first name on each team sheet

No one should be guaranteed to start every game, not even the captain. The whole idea of players being undroppable was a big problem this year.

I do think it's too soon to give it to Ryan. If he continues to impress in a season or too I think it's a no brainer.

Sanjuro

Could we not just have a team captain, and then pick the captain based on who's playing that game if the team captain is unavailable? Is this all being over thought a bit?

errlloyd

Didn't Scotland drop their Captain for the game against Japan. How important is it that the captain starts?

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

Didn't Scotland drop their Captain for the game against Japan. How important is it that the captain starts?

Yeah, it’s not important at all, especially when you have a leadership group to spread the load

Zzippy

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I agree. More or less the answer was to drop XYZ from the team. The problem was the replacement player wasn't good enough...

Take Sexton for example who is the prime target for all this. They did drop him, for the Japan match and it was a disaster.

They did take him off at half time in Russia match, again it was a disaster. Murray didn't start and this forum was full of how s**t McGrath was.

Anytime McGrath came on for last 20 mins or so, again forum full of how s**t McGrath was.

Then comes the NZ match and everyone wants both Sexton and Murray dropped, but for who?

I am not saying Joe was 100% right either.....

You moan about people criticising McGrath for not being good enough, and you do exactly the same about Carty. Despite Carty creating our only two tries in that game. You keep saying Carty was awful, but you can't accept others saying similar about McGrath. Despite both being surrounded by a team that was not playing well.

It's OK for you to single out Carty, but it's not ok for others to single out McGrath. Got it.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

Niallof9

If we're not picking Ryan because of age or whatnot, then Sexton is the captain as per World Cup. he has another year maybe.

POM gets a free ride.

A good guy, a players player and obviously a good talker and voice as seen on Lions tour. But as seen on Lions tour, he's not good enough.

Great lineout jumper, good work rate, doesn't make many tackles due to system, slow, poor carrier and gets a turnover or two s like many International class back rows (hint: its their role)

Shefwedfan

Zzippy wrote: »

You moan about people criticising McGrath for not being good enough, and you do exactly the same about Carty. Despite Carty creating our only two tries in that game. You keep saying Carty was awful, but you can't accept others saying similar about McGrath. Despite both being surrounded by a team that was not playing well.

It's OK for you to single out Carty, but it's not ok for others to single out McGrath. Got it.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

Will leave it at that


Onwards and upwards!!!

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

If we're not picking Ryan because of age or whatnot, then Sexton is the captain as per World Cup. he has another year maybe.

POM gets a free ride.

A good guy, a players player and obviously a good talker and voice as seen on Lions tour. But as seen on Lions tour, he's not good enough.

Great lineout jumper, good work rate, doesn't make many tackles due to system, slow, poor carrier and gets a turnover or two s like many International class back rows (hint: its their role)

Hint: it's a role he performs better than any other back row player we have. Beirne is the only other player we have who comes close to him with regard turnovers.

yerrahbah

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Large section of media are Munster fans, RTÉ for one, Pom could lie down in middle of pitch for entire game and do nothing and they would find a positive.....

I don’t know how many times they said “Pom needs a big game this week”, no big game and said comments the following week

I read the Sunday World after Japan game and the main review was exMjnster player and had him MOM....

For the standard fan they have no idea and just go by media. It will be the first test of Farrell and I will be disappointed if he goes with POM.....

I don’t want Sexton either, Hendy has done it for Ulster so could be in with a shout? The Ryan is too young camp is incorrect imo.....

Front row is a good place to start, anyone for Furlong?

The biased Munster meeja strikes again

Jump_In_Jack

Interested Observer wrote: »

Another player who shouldn't have been in the team for significant portions of the season. How does this make sense?

I think Stander is a cool head and well respected in the squad.
He has been ever-present in recent seasons at 6, 7, or 8.

Perhaps we'll see a change in selection from now on though if Farrell tries to play with a taller 6 (Beirne) and a distributing 8 (Conan/Deegan) and we are maybe going to see a more physical 7 (Nick Timoney).
I'd like to see a change from O'Mahony and Van der Flier at least to see what other options there are.

Interested Observer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I think Stander is a cool head and well respected in the squad.
He has been ever-present in recent seasons at 6, 7, or 8.

Perhaps we'll see a change in selection from now on though if Farrell tries to play with a taller 6 (Beirne) and a distributing 8 (Conan/Deegan) and we are maybe going to see a more physical 7 (Nick Timoney).
I'd like to see a change from O'Mahony and Van der Flier at least to see what other options there are.

Well Leavy was the other option at 7 and to be fair you can't legislate for the type of injury he sustained. But I've little doubt he'd have been starting if fit. He was probably our best backrow player in the 2018 6N. I don't really know where we go beyond VdF to be honest, he's almost there by default. I don't think Penny will be there yet as he'd need to really shoot the lights out at Euro level, TOD never seemed to cut it, bring Jordi Murphy back in?

Jump_In_Jack

Interested Observer wrote: »

Well Leavy was the other option at 7 and to be fair you can't legislate for the type of injury he sustained. But I've little doubt he'd have been starting if fit. He was probably our best backrow player in the 2018 6N. I don't really know where we go beyond VdF to be honest, he's almost there by default. I don't think Penny will be there yet as he'd need to really shoot the lights out at Euro level, TOD never seemed to cut it, bring Jordi Murphy back in?

I would have had Jordi start against New Zealand, but perhaps he has lost a yard of pace, and Schmidt wanted a speedy 7.
Timoney ticks both those boxes, he's a big guy and loads of speed.
I'm not sure how good he is at playing 7 though, perhaps he's more suited to 6/8?

Clegg

VdF is the only genuine quality option we have at 7 right now. There's no fit player that's better than him at the moment.

Niallof9

POM has that thing whiff of cordite used to talk about: Good face theory that US scouts talk of. He looks mean. Look at Jordi the guy reeks of Blackrock, you'd never have the causal person back him. Showed somebody non rugby the tweets of the airport and they saw him and they immediately did that roysh thing.

I'd actually supposition that Jordi is the better player but doesn't project the same level of Munster anger and heart. POM is a great talker, pulls a few faces, a few jerseys. Make him captain they shout. The Lions realised quite quickly it was mostly chat,and not backed up. As Hickie said in 2007 documentary in the croke park changing room "back up the chat,back it up". POM doesn't do it enough.

Its not a great backrow imo.

We also need to look at SOB, and Zeebs obvs. Make it a plus 35 cap thing that u can be considered in isolation.

Leavy, SOB are so far ahead of VDF, who is a workhorse but not a top class international. But he's the best we have for the moment.

Sexton will be captain cause he backs up the chat 9 times out of ten.

Mr Tickle

Niallof9 wrote: »

POM has that thing whiff of cordite used to talk about: Good face theory that US scouts talk of. He looks mean. Look at Jordi the guy reeks of Blackrock, you'd never have the causal person back him. Showed somebody non rugby the tweets of the airport and they saw him and they immediately did that roysh thing.

I'd actually supposition that Jordi is the better player buyt doesn't project the same level of Munster anger and heart. POM is a great talker, pulls a few faces, a few jerseys. Make him captain they shout. The Lions realised quite quickly it was mostly chat,and not backed up. As Hickie said in 2007 "back up the chat,back it up". POM doesn't do it enough.

Its not a great backrow imo.

We also need to look at SOB, and Zeebs obvs. Make it a plus 35 cap thing that u can be considered in isolation.

Leavy, SOB are so far ahead of VDF is who is a workhorse but not a top class international. But he's the best we have for the moment.

Sexton will be captain cause he backs up the chat 9 times out of ten.

This reads like to was google translated through three or four languages then back to English

Niallof9

Mr Tickle wrote: »

This reads like to was google translated through three or four languages then back to English

lol

irishbucsfan

I’m a huge fan of POM. I’d be surprised if he’s not in the discussion to be captain next year and surprised if he’s not starting in February. Certainly against England or Wales.

Former Former

Clegg wrote: »

VdF is the only genuine quality option we have at 7 right now. There's no fit player that's better than him at the moment.

Even with everyone fit he'd still be right in the mix.

Maybe Farrell will have a different take but Joe generally preferred VDF over Leavy.

Personally I'd love to see Leavy given a run at 6.

Niallof9

Ah Pete is of course a likely starter and vice captain. I'm not a fan and have never been ever since i watched him starting out, playing for Cork Con. I was always left wondering what the fuss is...I watched a good few games where a Hugh Hogan or Liam Quill would outshine him.

We need a good eight to emerge, with CJ moving to 6. Otr at least maybe we need to look at POM at 7 or 8. I will say, maybe if POM had played a jackling nuggety 7, instead of the (non)enforcer/carrier role he could have been a McCaw..

AdamD

Niallof9 wrote: »

POM has that thing whiff of cordite used to talk about: Good face theory that US scouts talk of. He looks mean. Look at Jordi the guy reeks of Blackrock, you'd never have the causal person back him. Showed somebody non rugby the tweets of the airport and they saw him and they immediately did that roysh thing.

I'd actually supposition that Jordi is the better player but doesn't project the same level of Munster anger and heart. POM is a great talker, pulls a few faces, a few jerseys. Make him captain they shout. The Lions realised quite quickly it was mostly chat,and not backed up. As Hickie said in 2007 documentary in the croke park changing room "back up the chat,back it up". POM doesn't do it enough.

Its not a great backrow imo.

We also need to look at SOB, and Zeebs obvs. Make it a plus 35 cap thing that u can be considered in isolation.

Leavy, SOB are so far ahead of VDF, who is a workhorse but not a top class international. But he's the best we have for the moment.

Sexton will be captain cause he backs up the chat 9 times out of ten.

Guessing you haven't seen SOB play rugby in the last couple of years

Niallof9

AdamD wrote: »

Guessing you haven't seen SOB play rugby in the last couple of years

So far ahead in natural talent, Obrien's been poor (and injured) since the Lions but i'd pick him every time over POM, whom i've never seen reach that level.

By all accounts SOB is pain free and more mobile after surgery

For me he's a live option

Faugheen

Niallof9 wrote: »

POM has that thing whiff of cordite used to talk about: Good face theory that US scouts talk of. He looks mean. Look at Jordi the guy reeks of Blackrock, you'd never have the causal person back him. Showed somebody non rugby the tweets of the airport and they saw him and they immediately did that roysh thing.

I'd actually supposition that Jordi is the better player buyt doesn't project the same level of Munster anger and heart. POM is a great talker, pulls a few faces, a few jerseys. Make him captain they shout. The Lions realised quite quickly it was mostly chat,and not backed up. As Hickie said in 2007 "back up the chat,back it up". POM doesn't do it enough.

Its not a great backrow imo.

We also need to look at SOB, and Zeebs obvs. Make it a plus 35 cap thing that u can be considered in isolation.

Leavy, SOB are so far ahead of VDF is who is a workhorse but not a top class international. But he's the best we have for the moment.

Sexton will be captain cause he backs up the chat 9 times out of ten.

Why has Leavy never started ahead of VDF at 7 when both were available?

Whether you think Leavy’s a better player or not whatever, but to suggest Van Der Flier is not a top class international 7 you’re way off.

To suggest SOB is better than him as well is ridiculous. SOB hasn’t been anywhere near his best in a long time.

VDF kept both of them out of the Leinster team when all were fit as well.

Vinnie222

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ah Pete is of course a likely starter and vice captain. I'm not a fan and have never been ever since i watched him starting out, playing for Cork Con. I was always left wondering what the fuss is...I watched a good few games where a Hugh Hogan or Liam Quill would outshine him.

We need a good eight to emerge, with CJ moving to 6. Otr at least maybe we need to look at POM at 7 or 8. I will say, maybe if POM had played a jackling nuggety 7, instead of the (non)enforcer/carrier role he could have been a McCaw..

It's amazing how many coaches that made him captain has got it so wrong