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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

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  • Options
    #62
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,776 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    The train line south of Bray has quite limited capacity - even doubling the section between Greystones station and the first tunnel would be very expensive (there's a cutting through rock just north of the station). But you'd still have a long single line section to work around, and as we've see with the PPT mess, IR don't do complex train operations well. If they could stable a couple of trains in Greystones overnight (or run them out early morning) they could run a 15 minute service between 7.30 and 8.30 which is when it's needed. I'm not sure there's enough sidings capacity though, & they may not have enough trains either.

    There are a lot of buses using the N11 from Wicklow and Arklow, but they're getting snarled up in traffic which now stretches from the M50 merge back beyond NewtownMK every morning. Converting the hard shoulder into a buslane would be a cheap and quick solution to moving more people from Wicklow on public transport.


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    #63
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,839 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    good point about the bus lane if it can be done... We need to get people out of cars and give them a reason to get out of them! i.e. reducing journey time! Like I said, at this stage, with a third world rail system, I wouldnt be putting any more cash into roads in the GDA. In the short term, put in more bus lanes where feasible, in the medium term, rail is the only solution...


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    #64
    onrail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭onrail


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Converting the hard shoulder into a buslane would be a cheap and quick solution to moving more people from Wicklow on public transport.

    Such a project underway in Belfast at the minute - could be a really cost effective measure


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    #65
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,776 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    another option would be to stable trains in Wicklow and run extra services from there in the morning. I get the impression commuters prefer the bus from Wicklow because it is so much more frequent, and the last train back to Wicklow leaves town at 1835. South of Wicklow the train line is indirect and slow, and they can't run any trains longer than 4 carraiges due to the short platforms at Rathdrum.


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    #66
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,776 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    onrail wrote: »
    Such a project underway in Belfast at the minute - could be a really cost effective measure

    should be considered on all the arterial routes into Dublin, people aren't going to switch onto the bus only to sit in traffic. They might as well stay in their cars.


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    #67
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I can only imagine the joy of the wexford bus drivers being able to fly up the hard shoulder/bus lane at 100kph, while regular commuters are stopped in the gridlock.


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    #68
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,776 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    jvan wrote: »
    I can only imagine the joy of the wexford bus drivers being able to fly up the hard shoulder/bus lane at 100kph, while regular commuters are stopped in the gridlock.

    apart from the regular commuters who are on the bus.


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    #69
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    jvan wrote: »
    I can only imagine the joy of the wexford bus drivers being able to fly up the hard shoulder/bus lane at 100kph, while regular commuters are stopped in the gridlock.

    That is exactly what happens on the M1 approach to Belfast and has done for 10 years.

    Driven on it countless times and it does exactly what is needed; gets public transport users past the congestion caused by private car users.

    What has also helped enormously in NI is that free or cheap P+R sites have been built around all the major trunk Ulsterbus routes, many beside motorway junctions.


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    #70
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭prunudo


    While I agree in principle of the idea of a bus lane, from a safety point you'd have to have a speed limit on it. You can't have a situation where cars and people are stopped while less than 1m away a 20 ton bus travels down the hard shoulder at 100kph. My original post was more having a pop at the bus company, as a regular user of the n11 I can't be only one who has noticed the way they drive, tail gating and speeding on a daily basis.


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    #71
    pat ticket
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭pat ticket


    MichealD wrote: »

    Incidentally this single carriageway section of the N11 has a higher traffic count than any count on the Cork-Limerick road past the Blarney counter (which is dual carriageway if I remember correctly).

    Actually the N20 counter at Lissavoura (The next counter after the Blarney one you referenced) has higher AADTs when you include the 2014/2015 counts, not sure what explains the sharp decrease in traffic in the 2016 figures.


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    #72
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    good point about the bus lane if it can be done... We need to get people out of cars and give them a reason to get out of them! i.e. reducing journey time! Like I said, at this stage, with a third world rail system, I wouldnt be putting any more cash into roads in the GDA. In the short term, put in more bus lanes where feasible, in the medium term, rail is the only solution...

    Is there any reason why a rail spur from South of Greystones to Charlesland can't be built - put in a decent P+R there with long platforms for at least 8 carriage DART trains - this might take a good few cars off the N11 beyond J11. Regarding capacity constraints between Bray and Greystones, would a passing loop in the middle make any difference?


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    #73
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Is there any reason why a rail spur from South of Greystones to Charlesland can't be built - put in a decent P+R there with long platforms for at least 8 carriage DART trains - this might take a good few cars off the N11 beyond J11. Regarding capacity constraints between Bray and Greystones, would a passing loop in the middle make any difference?

    Why not build the spur at Woodbrook and come up to the R119 (Dublin Road) - plenty of room for a P&R. Could even be done with a bus transfer on a special road across the green fields to a new Woodbrook station.


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    #74
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Is there any reason why a rail spur from South of Greystones to Charlesland can't be built - put in a decent P+R there with long platforms for at least 8 carriage DART trains - this might take a good few cars off the N11 beyond J11. Regarding capacity constraints between Bray and Greystones, would a passing loop in the middle make any difference?

    Back in the boom there was talk of this, rumours that Charlesland GC would be developed for housing etc and part of the plans would involve rerouting the train line inland.
    A bigger issue I would see is the constant erosion of the coast down towards Wicklow. A new inland double trackline should be seriously looked into. Can't keep hoping for the best and trying to fix damage after winter storms.

    Ps:- I know this would cost a fortune.


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    #75
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Why not build the spur at Woodbrook and come up to the R119 (Dublin Road) - plenty of room for a P&R. Could even be done with a bus transfer on a special road across the green fields to a new Woodbrook station.
    A new Woodbrook station on the existing line could be served by a short stretch of road to an adjoining P+R - this I think would definitely help - this in addition to a Charlesland spur in Greystones. A line swinging east through the south of Bray with stations at locations like Newcourt, Boghall and Ballywaltrim should have been considered before Bray was expanded southwards from the 1950's - of course, railways were out of favour then and that's a huge shame - would make a huge difference to the traffic situation in the town.


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    #76
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Here's a link middle man

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/developers-unveil-masterplan-for-greystones-1.996792


  • Options
    #77
    BigMoose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭BigMoose


    Not sure how I've missed this thread up until today. I commute from Wicklow Town to Park West and spend my life trying to avoid a 9am start in the office (so either leaving home at 7 or after 9 or work from home...). Or driving through Enniskerry when it goes wrong in the evenings.

    Very pleased to see there is someone looking at options. I would think there are some quick wins around the petrol station exit in kilmac going south and the bray / enniskerry / fassaroe exits going north...


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    #78
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,348 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII have published an N11/M11 needs study:

    http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report.pdf

    http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report_Appendices.pdf

    Article from the Journal: http://www.thejournal.ie/m11-3357661-Apr2017/

    EDIT: 3 lanes recommended north of J8 and closure of accesses recommended north of J8 as far as the motorway at J6..


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    #79
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,776 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    marno21 wrote: »
    TII have published an N11/M11 needs study:

    http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report.pdf

    http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report_Appendices.pdf

    Article from the Journal: http://www.thejournal.ie/m11-3357661-Apr2017/

    EDIT: 3 lanes recommended north of J8 and closure of accesses recommended north of J8 as far as the motorway at J6..

    pretty much the same conclusions as the previous report - I look forward to the next one.


  • Options
    #80
    vicwatson
    Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    loyatemu wrote: »
    pretty much the same conclusions as the previous report - I look forward to the next one.

    ^^^^^

    This. Just keep paying for reports, a load of bullcrap really. Report after report.


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    #81
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,348 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII to proceed with safety scheme in Kilmacanogue, focused around the southbound petrol station.

    http://wicklownews.net/2017/12/welcome-progress-made-on-tackling-lethal-n11-road-safety-issue-in-kilmacanogue/

    Would it not make more sense to CPO the petrol station?


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    #82
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Petrol stations are extremely expensive to CPO due to the huge turnover (even if low profits sometimes)


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    #83
    BigMoose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭BigMoose


    I would think you'd solve most problems if you start the slip for the station/exit further back and then put a big concrete block down at the petrol station along to the exit to force folk up the slip road and back on at the junction.


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    #84
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭prunudo


    marno21 wrote: »
    TII to proceed with safety scheme in Kilmacanogue, focused around the southbound petrol station.

    http://wicklownews.net/2017/12/welcome-progress-made-on-tackling-lethal-n11-road-safety-issue-in-kilmacanogue/

    Would it not make more sense to CPO the petrol station?

    I'll believe it when I see it, the slip road is very narrow as it is. Can't see a barrier, whether temporary or concrete making it easy for larger vehicles to exit the existing units and garages.


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    #85
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,348 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Works to have capacity on the M11/N11 increased have been included in the review of the Capital Plan.

    The first work will be the above with Kilmacanogue. I believe widening at least the motorway section is in the plan down the road (J4-J6).


  • Options
    #86
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,348 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Stephen Donnelly raised the M11/N11 issue in the Dail today.

    Aside from lines upon lines of outright spoof, the following is clear:

    * The M11/N11 J4-J14 upgrade is being advanced as a major project, but as a pipeline project (no work before 2021)
    * A number of safety phases will be implemented in the meantime, the first being the parallel access route at Kilmacanogue

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-01-17a.354

    I am a fan of Donnelly's response to Ross's reply to the original question which was full of irrelevant ****.
    Stephen Donnelly wrote:
    Most of the answer is Civil Service boilerplate text.


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    #87
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,348 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/braypeople/news/meagre-funds-for-underpressure-n11-36495394.html

    Article on the lack of funding for the M11 Capacity upgrade, with only 100k for 2018 for the parallel service road at Kilmacanogue


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    #88
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,348 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Upgrade of the N11/M11 is being implemented as per the N11/M11 Corridor Needs Study published in 2017:

    1. Construction of one way parallel access roads north of J8 Kilmacanogue. No land acquistion required and sorts out issue of direct access in the short term
    2. Widening the M11 between J4 and J6 using land in median, and upgrading J6 with increased roundabout capacity and realigned slip roads.
    3. Upgrade of the N11 from J6 to J8 to 3 lanes in either direction, service roads between J6 and J7, inclusive of the closure of J6a, a major upgrade of J7 and several link roads for increased network resilience.
    4. Upgrade of the N11 between J8 and J14 including dealing with direct accesses where possible.

    Phase 1 has been approved for implementation as a safety scheme in the short term. Phases 2-4 are being appraised as a large scheme for potential inclusion in the National Development Plan 2018-2027.


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    #89
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭prunudo


    There were guys surveying around the topaz garage heading southbound last week so hopefully phase 1 happens sooner rather than later.


  • Options
    #90
    Reuben1210
    Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭Reuben1210


    marno21 wrote: »
    Upgrade of the N11/M11 is being implemented as per the N11/M11 Corridor Needs Study published in 2017:

    1. Construction of one way parallel access roads north of J8 Kilmacanogue. No land acquistion required and sorts out issue of direct access in the short term
    2. Widening the M11 between J4 and J6 using land in median, and upgrading J6 with increased roundabout capacity and realigned slip roads.
    3. Upgrade of the N11 from J6 to J8 to 3 lanes in either direction, service roads between J6 and J7, inclusive of the closure of J6a, a major upgrade of J7 and several link roads for increased network resilience.
    4. Upgrade of the N11 between J8 and J14 including dealing with direct accesses where possible.

    Phase 1 has been approved for implementation as a safety scheme in the short term. Phases 2-4 are being appraised as a large scheme for potential inclusion in the National Development Plan 2018-2027.

    Does Phase 1 entailparallel access roads all the way from J6 to J8, or just segregated slip ways for teh garages and onto the bridge at J8?


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    #91
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Does this mean there'll be a 3 lane M11, a 3 lane M50 to Sandyford and a 2 lane M50 section in between? If so that's pretty idiotic.


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