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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

marno21

A desperately needed scheme in planning according to Michael Nolan of the TII at a recent Engineers Ireland conference.

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vicwatson

loyatemu wrote: »

pretty much the same conclusions as the previous report - I look forward to the next one.

^^^^^

This. Just keep paying for reports, a load of bullcrap really. Report after report.

loyatemu

marno21 wrote: »

TII have published an N11/M11 needs study:

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report.pdf

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report_Appendices.pdf

Article from the Journal: http://www.thejournal.ie/m11-3357661-Apr2017/

EDIT: 3 lanes recommended north of J8 and closure of accesses recommended north of J8 as far as the motorway at J6..

pretty much the same conclusions as the previous report - I look forward to the next one.

marno21

TII have published an N11/M11 needs study:

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report.pdf

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/strategic-reports/M11_N11_Needs_Assessment_Report_Appendices.pdf

Article from the Journal: http://www.thejournal.ie/m11-3357661-Apr2017/

EDIT: 3 lanes recommended north of J8 and closure of accesses recommended north of J8 as far as the motorway at J6..

BigMoose

Not sure how I've missed this thread up until today. I commute from Wicklow Town to Park West and spend my life trying to avoid a 9am start in the office (so either leaving home at 7 or after 9 or work from home...). Or driving through Enniskerry when it goes wrong in the evenings.

Very pleased to see there is someone looking at options. I would think there are some quick wins around the petrol station exit in kilmac going south and the bray / enniskerry / fassaroe exits going north...

prunudo

Here's a link middle man

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/developers-unveil-masterplan-for-greystones-1.996792

Middle Man

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why not build the spur at Woodbrook and come up to the R119 (Dublin Road) - plenty of room for a P&R. Could even be done with a bus transfer on a special road across the green fields to a new Woodbrook station.

A new Woodbrook station on the existing line could be served by a short stretch of road to an adjoining P+R - this I think would definitely help - this in addition to a Charlesland spur in Greystones. A line swinging east through the south of Bray with stations at locations like Newcourt, Boghall and Ballywaltrim should have been considered before Bray was expanded southwards from the 1950's - of course, railways were out of favour then and that's a huge shame - would make a huge difference to the traffic situation in the town.

prunudo

Middle Man wrote: »

Is there any reason why a rail spur from South of Greystones to Charlesland can't be built - put in a decent P+R there with long platforms for at least 8 carriage DART trains - this might take a good few cars off the N11 beyond J11. Regarding capacity constraints between Bray and Greystones, would a passing loop in the middle make any difference?

Back in the boom there was talk of this, rumours that Charlesland GC would be developed for housing etc and part of the plans would involve rerouting the train line inland.
A bigger issue I would see is the constant erosion of the coast down towards Wicklow. A new inland double trackline should be seriously looked into. Can't keep hoping for the best and trying to fix damage after winter storms.

Ps:- I know this would cost a fortune.

Sam Russell

Middle Man wrote: »

Is there any reason why a rail spur from South of Greystones to Charlesland can't be built - put in a decent P+R there with long platforms for at least 8 carriage DART trains - this might take a good few cars off the N11 beyond J11. Regarding capacity constraints between Bray and Greystones, would a passing loop in the middle make any difference?

Why not build the spur at Woodbrook and come up to the R119 (Dublin Road) - plenty of room for a P&R. Could even be done with a bus transfer on a special road across the green fields to a new Woodbrook station.

Middle Man

Idbatterim wrote: »

good point about the bus lane if it can be done... We need to get people out of cars and give them a reason to get out of them! i.e. reducing journey time! Like I said, at this stage, with a third world rail system, I wouldnt be putting any more cash into roads in the GDA. In the short term, put in more bus lanes where feasible, in the medium term, rail is the only solution...

Is there any reason why a rail spur from South of Greystones to Charlesland can't be built - put in a decent P+R there with long platforms for at least 8 carriage DART trains - this might take a good few cars off the N11 beyond J11. Regarding capacity constraints between Bray and Greystones, would a passing loop in the middle make any difference?

pat ticket

MichealD wrote: »

Incidentally this single carriageway section of the N11 has a higher traffic count than any count on the Cork-Limerick road past the Blarney counter (which is dual carriageway if I remember correctly).

Actually the N20 counter at Lissavoura (The next counter after the Blarney one you referenced) has higher AADTs when you include the 2014/2015 counts, not sure what explains the sharp decrease in traffic in the 2016 figures.

prunudo

While I agree in principle of the idea of a bus lane, from a safety point you'd have to have a speed limit on it. You can't have a situation where cars and people are stopped while less than 1m away a 20 ton bus travels down the hard shoulder at 100kph. My original post was more having a pop at the bus company, as a regular user of the n11 I can't be only one who has noticed the way they drive, tail gating and speeding on a daily basis.

Vic_08

jvan wrote: »

I can only imagine the joy of the wexford bus drivers being able to fly up the hard shoulder/bus lane at 100kph, while regular commuters are stopped in the gridlock.

That is exactly what happens on the M1 approach to Belfast and has done for 10 years.

Driven on it countless times and it does exactly what is needed; gets public transport users past the congestion caused by private car users.

What has also helped enormously in NI is that free or cheap P+R sites have been built around all the major trunk Ulsterbus routes, many beside motorway junctions.

loyatemu

jvan wrote: »

I can only imagine the joy of the wexford bus drivers being able to fly up the hard shoulder/bus lane at 100kph, while regular commuters are stopped in the gridlock.

apart from the regular commuters who are on the bus.

prunudo

I can only imagine the joy of the wexford bus drivers being able to fly up the hard shoulder/bus lane at 100kph, while regular commuters are stopped in the gridlock.

loyatemu

onrail wrote: »

Such a project underway in Belfast at the minute - could be a really cost effective measure

should be considered on all the arterial routes into Dublin, people aren't going to switch onto the bus only to sit in traffic. They might as well stay in their cars.

loyatemu

another option would be to stable trains in Wicklow and run extra services from there in the morning. I get the impression commuters prefer the bus from Wicklow because it is so much more frequent, and the last train back to Wicklow leaves town at 1835. South of Wicklow the train line is indirect and slow, and they can't run any trains longer than 4 carraiges due to the short platforms at Rathdrum.

onrail

loyatemu wrote: »

Converting the hard shoulder into a buslane would be a cheap and quick solution to moving more people from Wicklow on public transport.

Such a project underway in Belfast at the minute - could be a really cost effective measure

Idbatterim

good point about the bus lane if it can be done... We need to get people out of cars and give them a reason to get out of them! i.e. reducing journey time! Like I said, at this stage, with a third world rail system, I wouldnt be putting any more cash into roads in the GDA. In the short term, put in more bus lanes where feasible, in the medium term, rail is the only solution...

loyatemu

The train line south of Bray has quite limited capacity - even doubling the section between Greystones station and the first tunnel would be very expensive (there's a cutting through rock just north of the station). But you'd still have a long single line section to work around, and as we've see with the PPT mess, IR don't do complex train operations well. If they could stable a couple of trains in Greystones overnight (or run them out early morning) they could run a 15 minute service between 7.30 and 8.30 which is when it's needed. I'm not sure there's enough sidings capacity though, & they may not have enough trains either.

There are a lot of buses using the N11 from Wicklow and Arklow, but they're getting snarled up in traffic which now stretches from the M50 merge back beyond NewtownMK every morning. Converting the hard shoulder into a buslane would be a cheap and quick solution to moving more people from Wicklow on public transport.

MichealD

Idbatterim wrote: »

just read the article, nothing will be built for years anyway.

they think adding more lanes, that will just get choked with more traffic is the solution? how about the luas to bray, construct park and rides etc? at this stage, anything road based in the GDA should be cancelled and the money funnelled into rail...

are there any more expensive jokes planned like the gort to turm motorway or enniscorty bypass? Anything road based that isnt the galways bypass or cork - limerick motorway, should be put on hold immediately!

The 'expensive joke' bypassing Enniscorthy will remove the majority of the daily 15000 vehicles ( 2016 AADT https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6 ) including a high volume of HGV traffic from Rosslare from a single carriage way road crossing two bridges in a town centre urban setting containing multiple pedestrian & traffic light controlled crossings, roundabouts and bus stops which results in delays of up to an hour to travel 1.5km from north to south of the town at peak times.

Incidentally this single carriageway section of the N11 has a higher traffic count than any count on the Cork-Limerick road past the Blarney counter (which is dual carriageway if I remember correctly).

There are many projects in need of investment accross the country but as a shovel ready project the commencement of this particular one this year will be welcomed by many.

I will agree with the comment on rail investment (or lack of). We have trains leaving Rosslare for Dublin 20 minutes before ferries arrive and a travel time by rail from Enniscorthy to Connolly of nearly two and half hours to cover 115kms.

(Apologies for going off topic)

lucernarian

If we want to talk about ridiculous projects, it's the 8k planned to be spent on every person in Galway for their glorified relief road.

I'd prefer to see dualling of bray to greystones train line,right up to the mouths of the tunnel, which would allow for DARTs from Greystones every 20 minutes. Would be cheaper than Cherry wood to Bray LUAS too (I suspect).

This scheme is a good idea but I'd only worry about 3 lanes on the M11 between the M50 and the next junction south.

marno21

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I'd agree but I'd add my pet project which is a bridge at Palmerston for the N4. Won't make too much of a different inbound but outbound it would benefit everybody.

Luas and P&R sites would help here. Interesting that the congestion is still there even though Bray and Greystones are very well served by rail already.

Very poorly served unless going to the city centre/along the DART line. No access to Sandyford/Ballymount etc without going in and back out

marno21

Deedsie wrote: »

I would agree with you with the exception of the Merrion gates upgrade. That needs to be built and it benefits, motor, rail, cyclist, pedestrian and some residents. It will also improve traffic around Vincent's hospital which is important.

Merrion Gates definately needs to be done. It'll be very beneficial and won't lead to a massive increase in traffic.

Upgrades on the M1, N2, N3, N4, N7 and N11 however will just add to the existing mess. Lots of rail upgrades will solve the problems there, widening is just kicking the can down the road.

Chris_5339762

I'd agree but I'd add my pet project which is a bridge at Palmerston for the N4. Won't make too much of a different inbound but outbound it would benefit everybody.

Luas and P&R sites would help here. Interesting that the congestion is still there even though Bray and Greystones are very well served by rail already.

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

just read the article, nothing will be built for years anyway.

they think adding more lanes, that will just get choked with more traffic is the solution? how about the luas to bray, construct park and rides etc? at this stage, anything road based in the GDA should be cancelled and the money funnelled into rail...

are there any more expensive jokes planned like the gort to turm motorway or enniscorty bypass? Anything road based that isnt the galways bypass or cork - limerick motorway, should be put on hold immediately!

This is what I say too.

Political focus is on upgrading arterial routes in Dublin, all feeding into the M50 which can't be upgraded, and the main rail discussion in political circles is Athenry-Claremorris.

??????

N11 does need to be sorted from Bray to Coyne's Cross, safety issues and all the accesses need closing, but it should be done after there's a green line extension for starters.

Idbatterim

just read the article, nothing will be built for years anyway.

they think adding more lanes, that will just get choked with more traffic is the solution? how about the luas to bray, construct park and rides etc? at this stage, anything road based in the GDA should be cancelled and the money funnelled into rail...

are there any more expensive jokes planned like the gort to turm motorway or enniscorty bypass? Anything road based that isnt the galways bypass or cork - limerick motorway, should be put on hold immediately!

marno21

Report due on this shortly from TII. Upgrade definately warranted from report

http://www.thejournal.ie/n11-traffic-congestion-3120201-Dec2016/

spacetweek

Seems like a very useful new route to me.

loyatemu

jvan wrote: »

As far as I know this northern access route would link up from Blacklion/Redford to Glenview flyover, so again wouldn't be near the slopes of the Little Sugarloaf.

actually there's no confirmed route for this proposed NAR; just a line in the local area development plan:

WicklowCoCo wrote:

Reserve a land corridor to provide for a new road from the R761 at Sea View to
lands within AP1:Coolagad Action Plan. The new road shall provide local access to
zoned lands within the lifetime of the plan and shall, subject to feasibility, need and
design, in the long term provide a northern access route from Greystones to the N11.

prunudo

As far as I know this northern access route would link up from Blacklion/Redford to Glenview flyover, so again wouldn't be near the slopes of the Little Sugarloaf.