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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Very true - ABP is just one step in the process. Just look at Dublin City Council who look like they are going to challenge recent ABP decision re College Green.
    Can easily see this going to the High Court post any ABP decision.

    It will be challenged all the way to Europe (and beyond, if such a thing exists!).

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/climate-change-ireland-failing-on-human-rights-obligations-says-un-1.3681485


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    The M50 done wonders for development in Dublin.

    I would argue that road alone was primarily responsible for the economic boom of the 90's and early 2000's.

    It opened everything up.



    Ah yes, the magnificent M50.
    • Imagined as a bypass of Dublin back in the 1970s-1980s
    • Became a magnet for uncontrolled car-dependent development in the 1990s
    • Generated vast swathes of sprawl outside the capital in the 1990s-early 2000s
    • Turned into a "car park" by mid-2000s
    • Widened and "upgraded" at a cost of nearly €1 billion 2006-2010
    • Became a "car park" again only seven years after the widening scheme was officially opened to great fanfare.

    Yes, great example to follow. Bring it on!


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    marno21 wrote: »
    Can you provide a source for this statement please.

    Good question, thanks for asking.

    I keep meaning to get back to this, but then I run out of time.

    Will get to it in due course, because it's an issue of absolutely critical importance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Carol25


    Ruhanna do not use my posts and phrases out of context. I did not state country roads were not fit for purpose, I was referring to the city roads, following drop off to school. You made the claim that people were choosing to travel in their ‘comfy’ cars for less that 1km on a single journey each day and I refuted that claim.
    Out of interest, as 190,000 people currently live in County Galway, how would you go about transplanting people and families from the county to the City, and at what cost? Would you consider apartments suitable for families to live in as costs of property in the city are extremely high and would rise due to demand if everyone from County Galway was required to move in.
    What would the social implications be of such a move?
    As I suspected you’re offering no practical solution re public transport and yet more idealistic talk. Cars ‘wasting’ space on the roads currently are getting to people to work, school, etc. How and what roads/lanes would you suddenly shut down? Currently if there’s when a minor change even with traffic light timings, there are miles and miles of tailbacks. This happened frequently last year and this year.
    Would using public transport be mandatory in your idealistic City?
    My suggestion, plan a new urban centre and submit it to government. It’s ridiculous that people actually use an idealistic objective to claim a counter argument for a city and county crying for more infrastructure to get across the river and have been for years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,499 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Ruhanna wrote: »


    Yes, great example to follow. Bring it on!

    Couldn't agree more.

    The sooner it starts construction the better.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 320 ✭✭WillieMason


    Ruhanna wrote: »
    Ah yes, the magnificent M50.
    • Imagined as a bypass of Dublin back in the 1970s-1980s
    • Became a magnet for uncontrolled car-dependent development in the 1990s
    • Generated vast swathes of sprawl outside the capital in the 1990s-early 2000s
    • Turned into a "car park" by mid-2000s
    • Widened and "upgraded" at a cost of nearly €1 billion 2006-2010
    • Became a "car park" again only seven years after the widening scheme was officially opened to great fanfare.

    Yes, great example to follow. Bring it on!

    Lol jesus how many cars hit you in the past? You really hate cars and roads lol Dublin is really small compared to other capital cities not some sprawling mess reaching as far as donegal.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    mod: Cut the personal abuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Carol25 wrote: »
    Ruhanna do not use my posts and phrases out of context. I did not state country roads were not fit for purpose, I was referring to the city roads, following drop off to school.

    You made the claim that people were choosing to travel in their ‘comfy’ cars for less that 1km on a single journey each day and I refuted that claim.

    Out of interest, as 190,000 people currently live in County Galway, how would you go about transplanting people and families from the county to the City, and at what cost? Would you consider apartments suitable for families to live in as costs of property in the city are extremely high and would rise due to demand if everyone from County Galway was required to move in.

    What would the social implications be of such a move?

    As I suspected you’re offering no practical solution re public transport and yet more idealistic talk. Cars ‘wasting’ space on the roads currently are getting to people to work, school, etc.

    How and what roads/lanes would you suddenly shut down?

    Currently if there’s when a minor change even with traffic light timings, there are miles and miles of tailbacks. This happened frequently last year and this year.

    Would using public transport be mandatory in your idealistic City?

    My suggestion, plan a new urban centre and submit it to government. It’s ridiculous that people actually use an idealistic objective to claim a counter argument for a city and county crying for more infrastructure to get across the river and have been for years.

    What is the primary purpose of the city's roads? Moving county dwellers in their driver-only cars from A to B and back? Because the rurban commuter cohort, thanks to Galway County Council's stupid "planning" policies over decades, are huge contributors to the city's traffic congestion. You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

    Are you saying modern cars are not comfortable? What are you driving, a Lada? You didn't refute anything with regard to short distance driving in Galway. The fact remains, because the data have been there for years, that a significant proportion of journeys in the city are over short distances. The thousands of county drivers entering the city after their long drives from rurban developments spread over a very large commuter catchment meet thousands of city drivers travelling relatively short distances and the resultant mess is called "permanent gridlock" or some such. It's this chaotic and unsustainable mosaic of travel patterns that gives rise to demand for a so-called "bypass", which may ease congestion in the short term but which will not fix the core problems in the long term and will probably make things worse (see the story of the M50).

    Our stupid and unsustainable planning policies have led to many thousands of people transplanting themselves to the countryside, many of whom moved out to have "an urban-type home while avoiding the cost of city living" as mentioned in a link posted earlier. Can they be transplanted back? Unlikely. Our "planning" policies over decades have gifted us a legacy of unsustainable transport and infrastructure problems that will last for decades more. An urban motorway costing hundreds of millions of Euro is probably only the start of it.

    Private cars, regardless of trip purpose, are massively inefficient. If you want to make the worst possible use of finite space, then the private car is the ideal way to do it.

    fxclrt.jpg

    Look at the picture above. Is either lane "shut down"? Which mode of transport illustrates the most efficient use of available resources?

    A better question might be: what are the social implications of our rurban settlement patterns, which is one major source of the seemingly insatiable demand for more road construction?

    As stated earlier, probably more than once, 40% of car trips don't cross the river at all. Shifting a chunk of those trips to modes other than massively space-inefficient single-occupant private cars would go a long way to relieving congestion on the river crossings. Likewise, eliminating cross-river trips (such as with Park & Ride, and making much more efficient use of bridges (such as by mode-shifting to public transport especially) would also make much better use of existing infrastructure at much lower cost.

    The "miles and miles of tailbacks" are primarily composed of single-occupant cars (90% in Parkmore, according to a Council engineer).

    Mandatory? Do you have some sort of ideological objection to transport planning and measures to control private car use?

    Speaking of which, do you think that the County Council's construction of a motorway within the City Council's administrative area should be mandatory, to the extent that 40 family homes should be demolished, the relative tranquility of numerous other homes destroyed or diminished, and the property of an even larger group compulsorily acquired, divided or restricted, just so that county car commuters can drive faster?


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Couldn't agree more.

    The sooner it starts construction the better.


    Lead, horse, water etc.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we get back on topic. General discussion of tax, motor tax, sprawl, etc are off topic. Discussion on whether Galway Ring road is needed should be put in that thread. Off topic stuff will be moved or deleted depending on whether there is a thread for it.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Last Saturday, I drove from Athenry to Terryland and back. It was interesting because the traffic was not too bad, but I noticed the inordinate delay at the various traffic lights on the four or so junctions. They are complex and use sequencing that is very inefficient and give rise to tailbacks on the major route. There is also the Coolagh roundabout which also gives rise to problems.

    Now, I am not a traffic engineer, but looking at the map, it would appear to me there is plenty of space available to widen the N6 (Bothar Na dTreabh) to allow extra lanes, slip roads and bus lanes where appropriate. The main aim should be to make the N6 free flow as much as possible, and to widen or duplicate the Centenial bridge, again there is space to do so.

    Bus transport along the N6 is notable by its absence. Park and rides are also absent. Do the small things first.

    Bothar na dTreach could possibly be widened, which would create additional space for bus and cycle lane infrastructure, if you're not going to assign existing lanes for those, which IMO should be the first order of business. You can't widen/duplicate the Quin bridge, however, without taking out significant property interests on the western side, and even if you did, you're still funnelling additional traffic quicker into the bottleneck that is Seamus Quirke Road, which cannot be widened further. Even if you assumed a lot of that traffic is heading for the N59, there is no space for slip roads to create a free flow junction, and traffic will still grind to a halt and back up to Terryland.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Ruhanna wrote: »
    Can be you more specific (and prescriptive) regarding what is "on topic" in this thread?

    For example, what would be an "on topic" response to your post below?

    I am guilty of going off-topic myself. I intend to sort this out when I get time.

    When I sort it out, I will post specific guidelines. I will try and do so over he wekend.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    MOD: Totally off topic posts deleted.

    Sam Russell has stated that he will address this issue when he gets a chance. I don't see any need for speculation of what he plans to do. Lets leave it for a while and get back to the topic at hand


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Carol25 wrote: »
    As I suspected you’re offering no practical solution re public transport
    If you care to search and read through this and other threads posted on boards over the years about traffic in Galway you will find plenty of practical solutions.

    For instance there is a thread "'Luas on Wheels' bus service for Galway", where the following is posted (admittedly by me :o):
    • provide more bus services and have them go where people want (like for example, Knocknacarra->Ballybrit)
    • have certain streets bus-only (like what's happening in Dublin and Cork).
    • provide more Bus Lanes (me, I'd take take two lanes of the bridge and Bothar Na dTreabh)
    • provide more Park N' Rides on the city's outskirts
    • increase the number of cycle lanes.
    It is not a uniquely Irish thing to have people move out of cities to find cheaper or larger/more suitable housing.

    However, when other countries do this, planning for non-farm dwellings is only allowed in and around existing small towns, so that a critical mass can develop in the towns and so that services can then be provided to those towns, such as bus or rail transport back into the cities.

    Galway County in particular, is woefully badly unplanned - houses scattered about the countryside like confetti, making people car-dependent, which then do not allow the country towns to grow sufficiently so that services can be provided.

    This stuff is all basic planning, and Galway County is probably the best example of how not to do it.

    I've often said that being a planner in Ireland must be one of the most frustrating jobs - you go to college and learn how things should be done, and then you come out into the real world and see that destroyed by gombeen politicians - for a lot of politicians spend a lot of their time "representing constituents" (as Michael Lowry put it) which is also known as trying to get planning permission for one-off housing.

    You simply cannot choose to live in a one-off house in the countryside and then complain about the lack of services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Galway Bus Connect project will not have an Orbital route so there is no solution to cross city traffic in the plans at all

    So in case of Galway a bypass is needed as public transport is not even an option for getting "around" the city


    The purpose of the Galway Transport Strategy is to justify a developer-friendly decision made offline elsewhere, and to tick a bunch of IROPI boxes. Policy-based evidence-making while you wait.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    Ruhanna wrote: »
    The purpose of the Galway Transport Strategy is to justify a developer-friendly decision made offline elsewhere, and to tick a bunch of IROPI boxes. Policy-based evidence-making while you wait.

    Very little media or talk of this project one way or the other, Is it likely to sail through planning fairly handily ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    youngrun wrote: »
    Very little media or talk of this project one way or the other, Is it likely to sail through planning fairly handily ?

    Who knows, knowing Galway City Council they will probably want to CPO and demolish houses in the older parts of Galway City like Woodquay to put in Bus Lanes.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This has all the hallmarks of a dogged dragged out mess. I hope I'm wrong.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An Taisce, Derrick Hambleton is Chairman of An Taisce Galway, getting a platform through the Connacht Tribune

    https://connachttribune.ie/tackle-galways-congestion-by-building-city-houses-300/

    Tackle Galway’s congestion by building city houses

    Ever-growing congestion on Galway City’s roads over recent years has led many commentators to argue strongly for more new construction – to advocate an increase in the capacity on city roads commuter routes and for an N6 Outer Bypass, the latter again with An Bord Pleanála.

    The bypass was the option first advocated by Buchanan & Partners more than 20 years ago, until a judgement in the European Courts of Justice in 2015 put a halt to that particular whizz of a plan.

    Unfortunately for Irish taxpayers, the promoters of this ‘roads-based solution’ did not heed the warning signs.

    So even now, ‘the let’s just have more roads as a solution’ lobby are again pushing for a new alternative, which is to be an expensive €650m, now so-called Inner Ring Road, which has again been submitted for consideration by the now under-resourced Planning Board!

    This environmentally and socially damaging project simply cannot be justified, with 35% of car traffic actually crossing the river, only 3% of that traffic wanting to bypass the city.

    Yet I do believe that our main commuter routes do need upgrading. It is unarguable that the N59, N83, R339 and R338 – which carry so much traffic into the city from county areas – have not been upgraded in years!

    However, we need to remember that the Paris Agreement on climate change now has legal effect.

    Then, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), published an alarming special report, it came with both good news and bad for Galway. The good news is that the carbon budget for staying under 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming is larger than we thought, so we have a bit more time to act. The bad news is that the consequences of overshooting that threshold are very, very bad.

    The catastrophes that we once believed would be triggered by only 2 degrees of warming are likely to occur at this lower threshold, including widespread collapse of food yields and extreme levels of human displacement.

    For example, people may soon have to be moved away from living in areas such as in Galway City that are likely to flood. We can all remember the trauma caused to farming families and city residents from the flooding in November 2009, in January 2014, November 2015 and again in February 2018.

    The design, construction and management of roads, parking and other related facilities as well as the design and regulation of vehicles is known to cause significant damage to forests, prairies, streams and wetlands.

    Besides the direct habitat loss due to the road itself, and the road-kill of animal species, roads alter water-flow patterns, increase noise, water, and air pollution, and create disturbance that alters the species composition of nearby vegetation, thereby reducing habitat for local native animals, and act as barriers to animal movements.

    In the case of the N6 Ring Road, it would mean the displacement of 44 families from their homes with a further 10 houses rendered uninhabitable, as well as the demolition of two industrial properties and the loss of two industrial complexes.

    Yet the roads transport lobby, which accounts for in excess of 19.8% of this pollution, presses on with more of their unsustainable plans.

    Some would argue that the building of another new motorway will have the effect of promoting more car use, not less. This will be Galway’s continuing contribution to species extinction, and exacerbates our own contribution to climate change.

    Unfortunately, the number of cars using a spiders web of commuter routes into the city is ultimately proportional to the capacity of the network. Building yet more roads simply makes it possible for more cars to be poured into any chosen route, which itself encourages more people to live in less expensive locations outside of Galway City, but from where a daily commute is required. Eventually, when capacity is reached, people will just start clamouring again for yet more new roads (the M50 effect).

    This intensity of car use has been building in Galway since the early 80s, when the last new bridge was built crossing the River Corrib, (the 1985 Quincentenary Bridge).

    The populations of large towns in counties within an hour’s drive of Galway have also increased far more rapidly over the past two decades than in almost any other, with yet more external population growth predicted before 2040, we are told.

    The only sustainable long-term solution to congestion, and to reduce use of cars, is for people to live close enough to their place of work that they can either walk, cycle or avail of high-frequency public transport.

    Yet the IDA seem powerless to promote enough new industry into county areas, and Galway city centre itself has seen very few houses built in recent times, as compared to those larger numbers being constructed in all areas out into the county.

    In large peripheral areas such as we have in county Galway where housing is highly dispersed, it is simply not possible to effectively locate employment to facilitate shorter commutes. The only viable solution is to concentrate new housing nearer to growing business centres, hence in Galway City we are to have workers living in Ardaun, perhaps servicing Parkmore. But when construction is actually going to begin there, no one yet knows?

    There is still plenty of vacant land available within Galway City itself. I was told in 2014 that undeveloped land zoned for residential use in the Galway City Development Plan 2011-2017 is c299 hectares (739 acres), but for various reasons it has never been made available for construction.

    Landowners and developers frequently argue, with little justification that high costs mean it is not possible to service land, build according to strict conditions and still provide affordable homes of the type that families want to live in. In the meantime, it has remained viable to service land and construct homes in more distant locations – but only as long as the State continues to foot the bill for the enhanced road network that makes living in out of the way areas feasible.

    Then, as we are constantly being told by opponents of light rail, a Gluas-type tram transit in Galway is unachievable, whereas all over Europe governments have learned that ‘higher density’ housing makes tram systems economically viable. As the premium now being charged on houses built near the Luas in Dublin clearly shows.

    The luckless N6 Ring Road application is again submitted to An Bord Pleanala. Meanwhile Ceannt Station, the harbour lands and at Dyke Road sites are all listed for regeneration, each having been subject to much speculation since 2002, when potential for port relocation first became news.

    Brendan McGrath, City Council Chief Executive, recently said when talking about the appointment of consultants to draw up a ‘Public Realm Strategy’. Much will depend on the outcome of plans to extend the Port and the development of the N6 Ring Road, as the bypass is now called.

    We are left to wonder when we will see more of the housing the city needs actually built? The Government’s new National Regeneration and Development Agency (NRDA) and even newer LDA, Land Development Agency, are already sniffing around the city with the notion of buying lands for housing on public lands.

    The current congestion problems being experienced in Galway are what results when the State leaves the development of homes to the private market. While the Government is left to take care of funding the building of roads to service them, the costs to the State have just been shifted from the left pocket to the right, while the long-term commuting problems of all who live in scattered development have multiplied.

    The State’s new Land Development Agency should intervene, to allow more people live within the newly extended ‘Galway Metropolitan Area’, which is being extended to include Barna and Oranmore.

    Perhaps use regeneration lands available at Ceannt Station as well as on Galway Port’s underutilised lands, instead of forcing workers into unsustainable commutes, with many workers still having to drive in from surrounding counties.

    The funding for subsidies to construct housing, to improve public transport such as providing Light Rail or, to provide better public transport services to activate potential building land, could easily be provided by diverting the vast sums of money that would otherwise be spent on building and maintaining this environmentally damaging, additional N6 Ring Road space.

    This I believe is the most sustainable solution, and one that in the long term will give the best quality of life option for the largest number of people living in Galway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    That's a great article DaCor, thanks for posting. He writes very well and makes a lot of sense, this is probably not the thread for it but €650m would easily get you a proper Luas line and multiple P&R points, would solve the traffic problem and attract development close to the stations and therefore closer to the city


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Dats me wrote: »
    That's a great article DaCor, thanks for posting. He writes very well and makes a lot of sense, this is probably not the thread for it but €650m would easily get you a proper Luas line and multiple P&R points, would solve the traffic problem and attract development close to the stations and therefore closer to the city

    In no way shape or form will a luas line fix Galway’s problems. Also, will cost a buttload more than most realise for the service provided


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    An Taisce, Derrick Hambleton is Chairman of An Taisce Galway, getting a platform through the Connacht Tribune

    https://connachttribune.ie/tackle-galways-congestion-by-building-city-houses-300/

    Is this the same An Taisce which shoots done any development over 6 stories which is what this country is crying out for at its urban centres?


  • Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Ashleigh1986


    Take it from someone driving in galway city for past 20 years .
    Someone from the city .
    All the roundabouts need to be taken out of the city .
    They need to be replaced by cctv operated traffic lights .
    These lights need to be manned from 7am to 10 am
    and 4pm to 7pm .
    Also no right turns at traffic lights when vehicles can't go by in their inner.
    Also back the west / mill street / needs to be turned into a one way sytem.
    Bus lane all along both sides of the tuam road to parkmore from monaghans.
    One way system reintroduced on Lough atalia/ college road .
    The bottom 2 suggestions are soon to be done .


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The bottom 2 suggestions are soon to be done .

    So are all the others, depending on your definition of "soon"


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,322 ✭✭✭m17


    The galway outer bypass in 2025
    hHOWfh6.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    What is the tunnel going under in this image?

    Is that going to be the ballybrit race course?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    Looks pretty cool... Is there a visual of the whole thing ? 2025 might be stretching it but I would expect it will get a go ahead


  • Registered Users Posts: 2 smalldig


    256 objections from land and property owners against city ring road plan
    By Our Reporter - January 28, 2019
    Share on Facebook Tweet on Twitter


    Galway Bay fm newsroom – 256 objections have been made by affected land or property owners subject to compulsory acquisition plans as part of the proposed city ringroad design.
    The 650 million euro road project would run from Barna across to the Headford Road and Ballybrit with a new bridge and viaduct across the River Corrib.
    The 256 objections have been made by affected land or property owners who would be subject to the compulsory acquisition on the motorway and/or protected road scheme.
    An additional 98 submissions have been received on the proposed road development overall.
    An oral hearing is expected to take place early this year.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Thats not bad

    There would be thousands of objections if houses have to be demolished among main streets (think woodquay) in order to build bus+bicycle lanes that many here dream about but refuse to acknowledge that city streets are too narrow near city centre

    Really?
    Anyhow simpler solution would be to remove on street car parking and remove priority from private cars in the Core City Center. Simple.


This discussion has been closed.
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