How long before Irish reunification?

markodaly · 29-06-2019 12:58am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I wouldn't be voting for it for personal monitory gain. The concept that 'it must enrich us or why bother?'
is where you're missing the point. There's no 'we'll be grand' as regards any costs. It's something we should do and it'll cost what it costs. We've spent on 'taking one for the team' and various quangos, bondholders and lost money on sweet deals. A UI is far more worthy IMO.

Be careful Boris doesn't see these comments on how pointless having it is or the Unionists will get a kick up the arse out of it.

Again, I repeat. When all else fails (rational thought and reason) we fall back on primitive nationalism to justify something that normally should not be justified.

Some here get upset about the Brexit comparison but it's a match made in heaven in fairness. Many posters here have written many posts decrying the hard-line Brexit attitudes exhibited by our English neighbors, yet when it comes to the question of a UI, they exhibit the exact same traits and rationale.

So please tell us, how does a Brexit at any cost be bad, yet a UI at any cost be good?
All I see is the appeal to hard-line nationalism of the masses.

simongurnick · 29-06-2019 2:46am

markodaly wrote: »

Again, I repeat. When all else fails (rational thought and reason) we fall back on primitive nationalism to justify something that normally should not be justified.

Some here get upset about the Brexit comparison but it's a match made in heaven in fairness. Many posters here have written many posts decrying the hard-line Brexit attitudes exhibited by our English neighbors, yet when it comes to the question of a UI, they exhibit the exact same traits and rationale.

So please tell us, how does a Brexit at any cost be bad, yet a UI at any cost be good?
All I see is the appeal to hard-line nationalism of the masses.

If there is a referendum it won't fully come down to that rationale. We are emotional beings and it is that sort of feeling that will drive more voters to the polls .

Stop moaning ffs · 29-06-2019 6:22am

10-15 years

Apologies of already posted. Great debate on the Irish Times podcast. Mary Lou, Unionist Sophie Long and ITs Simon Carswell.

Fascinating perspectives all sides but take away thinking this is more of an inevitable when rather than if.

Great listen have a go

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/irish-times-inside-politics/id794389685?i=1000443067662

Stop moaning ffs · 29-06-2019 6:40am

10-15 years

*one of the points raised in the above was the unionists main objection historically to having anything like a UI was that they’d be ruled by Rome. Now that that demonstrably is no longer the case everyone up there but young people regardless of stripe arexlooking south and going ‘we want that. Why can’t we have that’ they’re stuck in the last most backward theocracy in Europe and it’s really backward but not unfixably so.

The DUP come in for a kicking and deservedly so in the above in any honest rational sense they can only carry on this ‘no to everything’ nonsense for so long.

29-06-2019 7:39am

20-30 years

BarryD2 wrote: »

So? What relevance does that really have for a UI? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

You have totally the wrong angle on this subject. Who knows, maybe that's your agenda.

If you seriously believe that the existence of more Catholics than Protestants at all levels of education is not highly significant for the future political status of the North you manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic. Well done.

BarryD2 · 29-06-2019 10:34am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Find it hard to see why unionists want a Union anymore, partition has been very bad for the north from an economic point of view, the English and Scots aren't interested in them, they have a geographic link to the Republic, which isn't a sectarian or even religious country now. They'd be better off and their identity might mean something here, as it is they're like a crazy ex following the Brits around.

These things run deep: land, culture, ambition & religion. The only real way forward is to build bridges, emphasis what people have in common. But the politics of NI and the border works against that mostly. Division is promoted.

BarryD2 · 29-06-2019 10:35am

Deleted User wrote: »

If you seriously believe that the existence of more Catholics than Protestants at all levels of education is not highly significant for the future political status of the North you manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic. Well done.

If you seriously believe that Catholic = Nationalist = Vote for UI, then you also manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic!!

_blaaz · 29-06-2019 10:37am

10-15 years

BarryD2 wrote: »

If you seriously believe that Catholic = Nationalist = Vote for UI, then you also manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic!!

Its like a 98% corrolation at election before last though?

29-06-2019 11:13am

20-30 years

BarryD2 wrote: »

If you seriously believe that Catholic = Nationalist = Vote for UI, then you also manage the remarkable feat of not knowing even the most basic of facts about this topic!!

Of course, nobody actually said something as simplistic as that so it's decidedly disingenuous of you to make up stuff. Nevertheless, please do report back with the number of Catholics who support the DUP. Do you think that there may possibly be some correlation between religious background and whether somebody defines as nationalist or unionist, even if that correlation is not strictly coterminious?

Pkiernan · 29-06-2019 11:27am

What about reunification under British rule again?

Although tongue in cheek, it's almost as likely as a 32 county republic.

markodaly · 29-06-2019 11:31am

What is clear is that there is a younger generation who are growing up without religion or national identity being a factor. Republicans have been forever telling us about the demographic inevitability of a majority Catholic population in the North arising, which would equal a majority in favor of a United Ireland. Oh so simple, right?

This theory is being shown as null and void as the newer generation are voting for the likes of the Alliance Party, PBP and Greens. Therefore, these voters will have to be convinced on the practical and tangible, not emotion or sentimentality of nationhood and stories about the rising.

29-06-2019 11:53am

20-30 years

markodaly wrote: »

What is clear is that there is a younger generation who are growing up without religion or national identity being a factor.

Not clear at all, but it's certainly a very nice, post-modern ideal with an endearing right-on feel.

markodaly wrote: »

Republicans have been forever telling us about the demographic inevitability of a majority Catholic population in the North arising, which would equal a majority in favor of a United Ireland. Oh so simple, right?

Right. So you can give evidence of a republican -
one will do, even if you did claim republicans - saying all Catholics would vote for reunification? I'll be waiting...

markodaly wrote: »

This theory is being shown as null and void as the newer generation are voting for the likes of the Alliance Party, PBP and Greens. Therefore, these voters will have to be convinced on the practical and tangible, not emotion or sentimentality of nationhood and stories about the rising.

I wonder would you have said something similar about 1977, when Alliance got 14.4% of the vote, some 3 percentage points higher than their 11.5% in 2019? Alliance, Greens & PBP received a combined 14% of the vote in this year's local elections. Let's not allow statistics to undermine your wishful thinking, though.

_blaaz · 29-06-2019 12:48pm

10-15 years

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wonder would you have said something similar about 1977, when Alliance got 14.4% of the vote, some 3 percentage points higher than their 11.5% in 2019? Alliance, Greens & PBP received a combined 14% of the vote in this year's local elections. Let's not allow statistics to undermine your wishful thinking, though.

I was under impression virtually all of alliances increase in vote was from within unionism....a protest vote againest brexit

BarryD2 · 29-06-2019 12:54pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

What about reunification under British rule again?

Although tongue in cheek, it's almost as likely as a 32 county republic.

Whilst quite unlikely, it's not an entirely ridiculous proposition. Who knows what will happen post Brexit, it may well ultimately suit the Republic to realign itself economically at least with the bigger island. A framework like that may well also draw unionists closer in and promote some form of unity under a new political entity.

Of course, there are many who would flatly deny this scenario and that the Republic's star is firmly linked to the EU market and multi nationals from the USA. But things change, business can be fickle and move on to a more advantageous arenas.

Stop moaning ffs · 29-06-2019 12:58pm

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

What is clear is that there is a younger generation who are growing up without religion or national identity being a factor. Republicans have been forever telling us about the demographic inevitability of a majority Catholic population in the North arising, which would equal a majority in favor of a United Ireland. Oh so simple, right?

This theory is being shown as null and void as the newer generation are voting for the likes of the Alliance Party, PBP and Greens. Therefore, these voters will have to be convinced on the practical and tangible, not emotion or sentimentality of nationhood and stories about the rising.

This effectively

Add in farmers fishing and industry being crushed by brexit and you’ll see the practical effects and outcomes for having an all island economy.

When was the last time any of us heard the word society used by any member of any party?

It’s all about economy now.
People up there and down here will be shown the long term benefits of an all island economy with no border to the benefit of all.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 10:03am

10-15 years

Members of the PSNI joined Gardai and defence forces to march in Dublin’s Pride parade yesterday. Funny that.

Sunny Disposition · 30-06-2019 10:31am

15-20 years

I don’t think it will be settled by economic arguments unfortunately. If it was less about the economy than identity the Constitutional issue would be relatively simple, the Unionists would see partition has been a disaster for the six counties and opt to come in with the 26.
As it is now Catholics are largely going to favour reunification and Protestants desperately want to avoid it. Even intelligent unionist commentators like Alex Kane aren’t going to be swayed an iota by a strong Southern economy.
I think Ulster unionism must be a very difficult identity and history to be born into. They also need the rest of the UK to buy into it for it to have any meaning, but it’s clear they are seen as expendible by most on the other side, even their fellow Leave advocates. Prisoners of a terrible and disgraceful history.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 10:37am

10-15 years

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I don’t think it will be settled by economic arguments unfortunately. If it was less about the economy than identity the Constitutional issue would be relatively simple, the Unionists would see partition has been a disaster for the six counties and opt to come in with the 26.
As it is now Catholics are largely going to favour reunification and Protestants desperately want to avoid it. Even intelligent unionist commentators like Alex Kane aren’t going to be swayed an iota by a strong Southern economy.
I think Ulster unionism must be a very difficult identity and history to be born into. They also need the rest of the UK to buy into it for it to have any meaning, but it’s clear they are seen as expendible by most on the other side, even their fellow Leave advocates. Prisoners of a terrible and disgraceful history.

Completely agree but Unionism has locked itself into that tower and is painfully isolationist to their own detriment. They can continue to do that but more and more it’s going to all move on without them. The quicker they engage the better.
As you said, Britain cares not a bit about them or NI. See them as paddies if they think about them at all. I don’t think true blue unionists have ever realised this but they’re about to be made to in this brexit scenario I’d say.

facehugger99 · 30-06-2019 11:43am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I don’t think it will be settled by economic arguments unfortunately. If it was less about the economy than identity the Constitutional issue would be relatively simple, the Unionists would see partition has been a disaster for the six counties and opt to come in with the 26.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the issue - The ROI voters will not take on a 10 billion a year economic basket case - it matters not a whit what NI wants.

_blaaz · 30-06-2019 12:03pm

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the issue - The ROI voters will not take on a 10 billion a year economic basket case - it matters not a whit what NI wants.

Just aswell its not a 10 billion a year basket case??

Something like 6.3 billion is pension payments of which contributions are paid to whitehall for....but dont let facts stop your incoherent rants

facehugger99 · 30-06-2019 12:10pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Just aswell its not a 10 billion a year basket case??

Something like 6.3 billion is pension payments of which contributions are paid to whitehall for....but dont let facts stop your incoherent rants

Post up your figures there for us all to have a gander at.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 12:15pm

10-15 years

Not directed any anyone but I do wonder how much of those so vehemently against the idea of a United ireland is based in an idealogy of its own. Or just a good old fashioned hatred of them up there.

To rub salt in the wound, We already have Russian troll farms caught sowing fake news stories about all political factions up in Northern Ireland via Facebook pages of different kinds. Most of which FB has identified as Russian interference and taken them down.

As if we needed their attempts at disruption in this already fraught and divisive debate.

_blaaz · 30-06-2019 12:18pm

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

Post up your figures there for us all to have a gander at.

Mate...im on my phone...cant post links

Just read any of the budgets....id be hoping your not attempting to.pass off your opioion as infromed without reading the budget figures?

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 12:19pm

10-15 years

_blaaz wrote: »

Mate...im on my phone...cant post links

Just read any of the budgets....id be hoping your not attempting to.pass off your opioion as infromed without reading the budget figures?

It wouldn’t be the first time

Greyfox · 30-06-2019 12:52pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Not directed any anyone but I do wonder how much of those so vehemently against the idea of a United ireland is based in an idealogy of its own. Or just a good old fashioned hatred of them up there.

I don't think people against a UI have anything against them up there it's just the fact that a UI might cause an economic mess. The truth is the UI question is not important to most people in the Republic, most have no interest in N Ire politics.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 12:57pm

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

I don't think people against a UI have anything against them up there it's just the fact that a UI might cause an economic mess. The truth is the UI question is not important to most people in the Republic, most have no interest in N Ire politics.

So it follows that if that referendum happens, those you mentioned will be unburdened by the knowledge of the stupidity of all the politics up there and unaware of what a basket case economically it is and vote yes. If they bother to turn up to vote that is.

I know you weren’t being dismissive but having no interest in their politics (and who could blame them) isn’t the same as total ignorance of it. Just so we’re on the same page.

RobMc59 · 30-06-2019 1:53pm

10-15 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So it follows that if that referendum happens, those you mentioned will be unburdened by the knowledge of the stupidity of all the politics up there and unaware of what a basket case economically it is and vote yes. If they bother to turn up to vote that is.

I know you weren’t being dismissive but having no interest in their politics (and who could blame them) isn’t the same as total ignorance of it. Just so we’re on the same page.

That's your third or fourth post trying to goad a reaction with your insults about Britain and NI.
NI is part of the UK and with it's close ties to Scotland is always going to be important to Britain-why would the people of NI want to be ruled by the fat cats of Dublin who are no better than the fat cats in Westminster?

_blaaz · 30-06-2019 1:56pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's your third or fourth post trying to goad a reaction with your insults about Britain and NI.
NI is part of the UK and with it's close ties to Scotland is always going to be important to Britain-why would the people of NI want to be ruled by the fat cats of Dublin who are no better than the fat cats in Westminster?

NI is also.part of ireland

Indeed its links are much closer to ireland....the sea seperates it from scotland,whereas theres like 200 odd land crossings with the free state

Why would people want to ruled from westminister :pac:...its one of poorest regions in northern europe....whereas the free state is one of richest countries in the world

Unless your impling people want to be poor

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 2:05pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's your third or fourth post trying to goad a reaction with your insults about Britain and NI.
NI is part of the UK and with it's close ties to Scotland is always going to be important to Britain-why would the people of NI want to be ruled by the fat cats of Dublin who are no better than the fat cats in Westminster?

Wasn’t trying to goad anyone. Just stating an opinion and facts
Northern Ireland isn’t part of the United Kingdom (also a fact)
No debate about your frankly lazy ‘fat cats’ remark. The scale of ‘fat cats’ in Dublin and London doesn’t need debate. We don’t have millionaires trying to drive our country out of the EU for their own financial benefit.

Fact is the Irish government have done more and worked more in brexit for NI farmers and industry than their UK counterparts, whose responsibility it actually is.

You don’t like what I posted cos you can’t respond. With facts.

RobMc59 · 30-06-2019 2:06pm

10-15 years

_blaaz wrote: »

NI is also.part of ireland

Indeed its links are much closer to ireland....the sea seperates it from scotland,whereas theres like 200 odd land crossings with the free state

Why would people want to ruled from westminister :pac:...its one of poorest regions in northern europe....whereas the free state is one of richest countries in the world

Unless your impling people want to be poor

You do realise NI is part of the UK as per the GFA?The apple doesn't fall far from the tree,the close ties between NI and Scotland are unbreakable,Ireland showed its true colours over minor fishing disputes with its bully boy gunboat diplomacy in Dundalk bay which isn't forgotten.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 2:12pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

You do realise NI is part of the UK as per the GFA?The apple doesn't fall far from the tree,the close ties between NI and Scotland are unbreakable,Ireland showed its true colours over minor fishing disputes with its bully boy gunboat diplomacy in Dundalk bay which isn't forgotten.

And there seems no close ties between Ireland and eh, Ireland. The north bit.

Seriously?

*i think our ties with Northern Ireland are geologicallly and socially unbreakable.

_blaaz · 30-06-2019 2:16pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

You do realise NI is part of the UK as per the GFA

Its literally part of island of ireland

Like i said it has 200 odd land crossing with the free state....quite how you think having to cross a sea to reach scotland makes it closer is hilarious misunderstanding of basic geography :pac:

Hint mate....land crossing are easier to cross than the sea....why you argue otherwise is beyond me

RobMc59 · 30-06-2019 2:21pm

10-15 years

_blaaz wrote: »

Its literally part of island of ireland

Like i said it has 200 odd land crossing with the free state....quite how you think having to cross a sea to reach scotland makes it closer is hilarious misunderstanding of basic geography :pac:

Hint mate....land crossing are easier to cross than the sea....why you argue otherwise is beyond me

Did you vote in the GFA?to-do you know about the GFA?

_blaaz · 30-06-2019 2:23pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Did you vote in the GFA?to-do you know about the GFA?

What about the gfa....your running away from your claim that crossing the sea is closer connection than 200 land crossing

How is that

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 2:24pm

10-15 years

Asked you a question rob.

Care to answer?

RobMc59 · 30-06-2019 2:36pm

10-15 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Asked you a question rob.

Care to answer?

Was I being serious?-yes .

RobMc59 · 30-06-2019 2:43pm

10-15 years

_blaaz wrote: »

NI is also.part of ireland

Indeed its links are much closer to ireland....the sea seperates it from scotland,whereas theres like 200 odd land crossings with the free state

Why would people want to ruled from westminister :pac:...its one of poorest regions in northern europe....whereas the free state is one of richest countries in the world

Unless your impling people want to be poor

The free state?Wasn't that 80 years ago?
You've got some serious catching up to do!

_blaaz · 30-06-2019 2:47pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

The free state?Wasn't that 80 years ago?
You've got some serious catching up to do!

Nah mate....keep running from your claim.that land connection is less close tham crossing the sea though

:pac: :pac:...

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 2:47pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Was I being serious?-yes .

One word answer.
Well founded and deeply though out response.

Care to address any of the take downs of your factually inaccurate points?

I’ll Hazard a guess you won’t.

Greyfox · 30-06-2019 3:11pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Its literally part of island of ireland

Yes but the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic recognise that the border is a border separating 2 contrys with different rules and currency. The fact that you think the border shouldn't be there doesn't change the fact that it is there

_blaaz · 30-06-2019 3:17pm

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

Yes but the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic recognise that the border is a border separating 2 contrys with different rules and currency.

Has anyone said otherwise

RobMc59 · 30-06-2019 4:05pm

10-15 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

One word answer.
Well founded and deeply though out response.

Care to address any of the take downs of your factually inaccurate points?

I’ll Hazard a guess you won’t.

What is inaccurate about Scotland and NI having close ties or the fact Ireland recognises NI is part of the UK as agreed in the GFA?

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 4:31pm

10-15 years

Greyfox wrote: »

Yes but the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic recognise that the border is a border separating 2 contrys with different rules and currency. The fact that you think the border shouldn't be there doesn't change the fact that it is there

The British government such as it is is currently totally ignoring that border. And their responsibility to it.

Read your post again

FrancieBrady · 30-06-2019 4:35pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

What is inaccurate about Scotland and NI having close ties or the fact Ireland recognises NI is part of the UK as agreed in the GFA?

What is the significance of this 'closeness'? Scotland doesn't have a constitutional aspiration to unite with northern Ireland.

So what if they are 'close'?

Sunny Disposition · 30-06-2019 4:47pm

15-20 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the issue - The ROI voters will not take on a 10 billion a year economic basket case - it matters not a whit what NI wants.

When there is a referendum it will be a formality. The South will vote yes, don’t doubt it for a second. Some will vote no, but not a hope of that number being close 50%.

cameramonkey · 30-06-2019 4:51pm

20-30 years

What our Orange brethren in the six counties think dosnt really matter they are going to be caught out by seismic shifts in the UK and Europe. They have ridden the wave of British nationalism to the shore of a new dispensation within these Isles. The likely outcome will be a rump of England and Wales in a smaller UK with Scotland independent and most likely a united Ireland in the medium to long term.

The Unionist of the six counties had their day and as the sun sets over the UK they need to have a look at their wee statelet and decide where they are going to go in the next 50 years.

Their love in with the Tories will have only one outcome, they will be dumped for a more attractive model. That alternative model will be freedom from Europe for the Brexiteers. The DUP will be left sitting on the side lines as the Scots strike for independence and the English do a deal with Europe with the six counties trapped in a customs union. The Union of Great Britain and NI has been holed below the water line, the Tories know it, the SNP know it, its just up now to the Orange men to realise that they have been left on a sinking ship. The water is about up to their knees now hopefully they will realise their perilous position before it reaches their neck.

Sunny Disposition · 30-06-2019 5:00pm

15-20 years

cameramonkey wrote: »

What our Orange brethren in the six counties think dosnt really matter they are going to be caught out by seismic shifts in the UK and Europe. They have ridden the wave of British nationalism to the shore of a new dispensation within these Isles. The likely outcome will be a rump of England and Wales in a smaller UK with Scotland independent and most likely a united Ireland in the medium to long term.

The Unionist of the six counties had their day and as the sun sets over the UK they need to have a look at their wee statelet and decide where they are going to go in the next 50 years.

Their love in with the Tories will have only one outcome, they will be dumped for a more attractive model. That alternative model will be freedom from Europe for the Brexiteers. The DUP will be left sitting on the side lines as the Scots strike for independence and the English do a deal with Europe with the six counties trapped in a customs union. The Union of Great Britain and NI has been holed below the water line, the Tories know it, the SNP know it, its just up now to the Orange men to realise that they have been left on a sinking ship. The water is about up to their knees now hopefully they will realise their perilous position before it reaches their neck.

They have picked the worst possible leadership in recent years too. The DUP needed to make the North a more welcoming place to non Protestants if they wanted to preserve the union. Instead they favorited Brexit, opposes the backstop, opposed gay marriage and opposed an Irish language act. At the exact historical moment their demographic advantage was evaporating. Utter lunacy.

30-06-2019 5:04pm

20-30 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

What is inaccurate about Scotland and NI having close ties or the fact Ireland recognises NI is part of the UK as agreed in the GFA?

I wouldn't be getting carried away with this "UK" stuff; it's only in existence in its current format since December 1922, which really is only a very short while ago (all 4 of my grandparents were adults at that time). It will be surprising if it lasts another 5 years. The way some British people go on one would swear the UK has been inviolable for centuries.

RobMc59 · 30-06-2019 6:49pm

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is the significance of this 'closeness'? Scotland doesn't have a constitutional aspiration to unite with northern Ireland.

So what if they are 'close'?

Francie,I understand your still smarting after Leo and Mary Lou`s embarrassing climb downs over Dundalk bay and the"banner" but Ireland would do well to err on the side of caution dealing with Scotland,who knows, an independent Scotland might like the idea of an alliance with their Ulster brethren.

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 7:08pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,I understand your still smarting after Leo and Mary Lou`s embarrassing climb downs over Dundalk bay and the"banner" but Ireland would do well to err on the side of caution dealing with Scotland,who knows, an independent Scotland might like the idea of an alliance with their Ulster brethren.

Unicorn hunters. See above post.

How long before Irish reunification?

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