Killer Robots

Capt'n Midnight · 01-02-2018 12:20am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So, could/should a robot be put on trial for war crimes?

No.

The human who authorised it , yes.

Both Germany and the US deployed homing torpedos in 1943 so arguably we've had killer robots for quite a while now.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-02-2018 12:24am

Fathom wrote: »

Did movie i-Robot consider robot rights to trial?

It was slightly based on Asimov's robots series, which were based on a pure fantasy concept.

Real robots are based on programs. Unless you are using certain mathematically provable languages the output of a program can't be guaranteed. So there's a risk factor.

Professor Moriarty · 01-02-2018 12:25am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

No.

The human who authorised it , yes.

Both Germany and the US deployed homing torpedos in 1943 so arguably we've had killer robots for quite a while now.

It's not my field, but as AI progresses, at what stage does the machine have choice? Of course the creator 'should' be responsible but if the machine's intelligence reaches a point where it is autonomous?

Capt'n Midnight · 01-02-2018 1:00am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's not my field, but as AI progresses, at what stage does the machine have choice? Of course the creator 'should' be responsible but if the machine's intelligence reaches a point where it is autonomous?

Passing a Turing Test doesn't prove you're human.

It just means you are more likely to be.

And it has to be a really good Turing Test. Not some crappy web chat AI that is just Eliza with a better dictionary and more hard coded grammar rules.

AI has a very long way to go before it can pretend to be us in open ended tests, and even that doesn't prove it's sentient.

Fathom · 01-02-2018 6:32pm

Ex Machina (2014) used Turing Test?

Professor Moriarty · 01-02-2018 7:34pm

Fathom wrote: »

Ex Machina (2014) used Turing Test?

It was that kind of 'robot' I was thinking of but in a military combat context.

Black Swan · 02-02-2018 4:25am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It was that kind of 'robot' I was thinking of but in a military combat context.

Fathom · 02-02-2018 5:11pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It was that kind of 'robot' I was thinking of but in a military combat context.

1st in Sci Fi. Someday real robot army.

Professor Moriarty · 02-02-2018 5:43pm

Fathom wrote: »

1st in Sci Fi. Someday real robot army.

Drones being an early iteration.

Black Swan · 03-02-2018 7:48am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Drones being an early iteration.

Fathom · 07-02-2018 8:24pm

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2018 1:50am

The Samsung SGR-A1 sentry gun on the Korean DMZ may or may not have a Human In The Loop, which means a Human has to OK the slaughter.

The other alternative is Human On The Loop, which means it will continue to kill people until a Human takes action to stop it.

It's not a technical thing, the sentry gun could work in either setting.

It's got laser ranging . cameras, infra red and thermographs and can be linked to grenade launchers or machine guns with a effective range of 3.5Km. It's like a minefield, except the mine is actively hunting you.

That genie is out of the bottle.

Black Swan · 08-02-2018 9:19am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

That genie is out of the bottle.

Indeed.

Fathom · 09-02-2018 9:28pm

Subsurface robots about long time. Example.

Capt'n Midnight · 09-02-2018 9:48pm

Fathom wrote: »

Subsurface robots about long time. Example.

Way earlier , but dumber.

me wrote:

Both Germany and the US deployed homing torpedos in 1943 so arguably we've had killer robots for quite a while now.

There's a lot of money in killing humans.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42981072

The Senate bill, which has not yet been publicly unveiled, reportedly increases defence spending by $80bn in the first fiscal year and $85bn in the second.

Note the spending on Homeland Security

Also the NASA budget includes $4Bn pork barrel funds in the SLS & related projects (reinventing the wheel, using off the shelf wheels). And another €3bn or so in slush funds for the big aerospace military industry complex. If you look at what the US military actually get for this money it's shameful.

Note the spending on Veteran Affairs
Think how much money could be saved, and votes won, by not putting humans in harms way, and how the marketing droid will pitch it

Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
- Kyle Reese

Black Swan · 10-02-2018 1:12am

574 billion during 2018 will build a lot of killer robots.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2018 2:00am

Black Swan wrote: »

574 billion during 2018 will build a lot of killer robots.

Not with the prices BAE and their ilk will charge

Capt'n Midnight · 13-02-2018 1:04am

Fathom · 14-02-2018 12:53am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not with the prices BAE and their ilk will charge

Will flying killer robots still need $1,200 toilet seats?

Black Swan · 15-02-2018 8:41am

Drones in the FY 2018 Defense Budget:

The U.S. military’s spending on drones is set to reach a five-year high. The Department of Defense Fiscal Year 2018 budget request contains $6.97 billion for drone-related procurement, research and development, and system-specific construction.

Fathom · 17-02-2018 1:42am

Small drone budget out of one-half trillion 2018 defense budget.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2018 7:53pm

Lots of pass the buck potentially going on. Is an AI an entity with insufficient mental capacity for criminal intent ? Or does handing a gun to an idiot make you responsible ?

Or will they try and use a lowly paid serf or outsourcing as the scapegoat ?

When clever code kills, who pays and who does the time?

Programmers might be held liable as accomplices to a criminal act by an AI if the crime was deemed a "natural or probable consequence" of the software's operation. Kingston recounted the story of a Japanese factory worker killed accidentally by a robot arm that mistook him for a motorcycle as an example of a problem that should have been foreseen.

Black Swan · 24-02-2018 11:26pm

Fathom wrote: »

Small drone budget out of one-half trillion 2018 defense budget.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Lots of pass the buck potentially going on. Is an AI an entity with insufficient mental capacity for criminal intent ? Or does handing a gun to an idiot make you responsible ?

Or will they try and use a lowly paid serf or outsourcing as the scapegoat ?

Or... do you "get what you pay for?" When something goes wrong, look for a scapegoat.

Fathom · 25-02-2018 8:28pm

World Robot Summit 2018.

Fathom · 01-04-2018 9:05pm

Underwater robot competitions.

Fathom · 30-04-2018 11:12pm

"Fully autonomous weapons, also known as "killer robots," would be able to select and engage targets without human intervention. Precursors to these weapons, such as armed drones, are being developed and deployed by nations including China, Israel, South Korea, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States."

Black Swan · 01-05-2018 12:25am

Fathom wrote: »

"Fully autonomous weapons, also known as "killer robots," would be able to select and engage targets without human intervention. Precursors to these weapons, such as armed drones, are being developed and deployed by nations including China, Israel, South Korea, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States."

To what extent do international laws cover "autonomous weapons," or do they?

Fathom · 02-05-2018 4:30am

Technology outpacing laws?

Fathom · 03-05-2018 8:37pm

Fathom wrote: »

Technology outpacing laws?

H.G. Wells?

Black Swan · 08-05-2018 1:51am

Criminal gang uses drones to defeat observations by FBI during rescue attempt.

Ref:
https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/05/criminal-gang-used-drone-swarm-obstruct-fbi-raid/147956/

Capt'n Midnight · 08-05-2018 8:32pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44028810

Russia's big Victory Day parade on Wednesday will feature a remote-controlled tank and other new weapons systems combat-tested in Syria.

The Uran-9 tank is armed with anti-tank rockets, a cannon and a machine-gun.

...
Gazeta.ru reports that the Uran-9 can locate a target itself but the decision to fire is taken by a commander sitting in an armoured truck up to 3km (1.8 miles) away.

So at the moment they still use a human in the loop. Killer robots are out there, it's nothing new.

Fathom · 10-05-2018 11:21pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So at the moment they still use a human in the loop. Killer robots are out there, it's nothing new.

At moment. Someday?

Black Swan · 12-05-2018 12:46am

"Humans in the loop," given that such a policy may reduce efficiency and effectiveness below that of AI killer robot control, will probably be a factor for years to come.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-05-2018 7:28pm

I'd suspect it's more to do with the fear of friendly fire.

From a story by Philip K Dick some of the script of Screamers - a film about killer robots.

Are they machines? Are they alive?
l don't understand...
l don't have the answers, Jefferson.
- But where are they coming from?
- Underground.
The first design was sent to us from the Alliance on Earth.
lt's all automated now.
No one's been down there since they pushed the first button and ran.
- They make themselves now.

Black Swan · 15-05-2018 3:31pm

Will have to view Screamers.

Fathom · 15-05-2018 5:42pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Screamers - a film about killer robots.

http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/13182/underappreciated-movies-screamers

Black Swan · 19-05-2018 3:47pm

Robot combat events calendar.

See:
https://www.robotcombatevents.com/

Fathom · 22-05-2018 4:49pm

Black Swan wrote: »

Robot combat events calendar. See: https://www.robotcombatevents.com/

Child's play? Compared to today's military versions.

Black Swan · 24-05-2018 3:48pm

Indeed "child's play" given active drones and experimental land and water warbots.

Fathom · 26-05-2018 11:22pm

Comes military Skynet. First movie fiction. Then?

Fathom · 01-06-2018 7:55pm

Krishnan, A. (2016 ebook), Killer Robots, 1st Edition, London: Routledge. Also... Daniel Wilson (2005), How to Survive a Robot Uprising, Bloomsbury Publishing.

Black Swan · 02-06-2018 4:35pm

It appears that the UK and USA are standing together regarding the use of future autonomous killer robots before the UN.

Fathom · 04-06-2018 7:00pm

USA & UK protocols? Or lack of?

Black Swan · 08-06-2018 10:42pm

Fathom wrote: »

USA & UK protocols? Or lack of?

Noted earlier, Hayley Evans of Lawfare (13 April 2018) was a good source for detailing the issues faced by both UK and USA regarding the prohibition of autonomous weapons systems. In summary, it is too early to tell what the UK and USA will do regarding Killer Robots. It would seem obvious they are developing such, but as to deploying them in sufficient numbers to make a difference in modern warfare, that remains problematic at present.

AlphabetCards · 09-06-2018 1:05pm

It has got to the point that off-road autonomous gun carriers (small tracked vehicles with chain gun) are being trialed with line infantry in 29 Palms with some US Marine Corps units. Suffice to say, there must be some operational autonomous units with the likes of their special forces.

Fathom · 09-06-2018 9:33pm

Aircraft carrier groups. 5 defensive weapons systems. Faster than humans. CIC now has final keyed button. For now.

AlphabetCards · 10-06-2018 8:20pm

To be fair, close-in weapon systems on naval assets work to a set of very well pre-defined boundaries and rules. For example, there will be little to no reason for an airborne object to approach a carrier group at mach 2 or on some sort of terminal descent, similar for the anti-FIAC situation - if a group is well clear of allied littoral regions and there's a number of small craft inbound at speed, it's not likely to be a friendly boarding party. Where AI will come into it's own, is when a crew have been on 6-on/6-off for months on end and they are getting sloppy (it happens, no offence to any matelots on the board) and they react slowly to dealing with inbound threats. At least AI will pick it up at earliest opportunity.

Black Swan · 10-06-2018 9:15pm

AlphabetCards wrote: »

To be fair, close-in weapon systems on naval assets work to a set of very well pre-defined boundaries and rules.

What about the "pre-defined boundaries and rules" pertaining to civilian passenger Iran Air Flight 655 flying from Tehran to Dubai (3 July 1988), shot down by an SM-2MR surface-to-air missile fired from USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser of the United States Navy? Also, commercial flight pilot error, flight software and hardware program failures, and flight course changes to avoid adverse weather may result in problematic behaviour of civilian flights, which may, or may not intrude on "pre-defined boundaries and rules" programmed into autonomous weapons systems. Of course, the weapon system was not entirely autonomous, and required a human decision before fining, but had it been autonomous, who knows?

AlphabetCards wrote: »

Where AI will come into it's own, is when a crew have been on 6-on/6-off for months on end and they are getting sloppy (it happens, no offence to any matelots on the board) and they react slowly to dealing with inbound threats. At least AI will pick it up at earliest opportunity.

The USC Immersive Naval Officer Training System (INOTS) attempts to address such problems through active training and simulations, etc., with results that suggest improved efficiency and effectiveness for this problem mentioned, as well as a host of other problems.

Fathom · 11-06-2018 1:43am

Encyclopaedia Britannica:

Iran Air flight 655, flight of an Iranian airliner that was shot down by the missile cruiser USS Vincennes on July 3, 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, killing all 290 people on board. The passenger plane, which was in Iranian airspace, had been incorrectly identified as a fighter jet.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-06-2018 6:13pm

Killer Robots

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