Nazi memorabilia for sale in Dublin. Appropriate?

Nodin · 27-12-2015 3:03pm

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Wehrmacht ceremonial dagger and metal sheath value?

Depends on a rake of factors
http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/german/blades/german_edge.html
If you can trace and prove the provenance of the item, it raises the value considerably.

padd b1975 · 27-12-2015 3:05pm

Palbear wrote: »

Mine.
The Nazis were murderers.
Maybe not all of them but certainly very many were.
Profiteering from selling their artefacts is not something I view favourably.

Don't sell.

Don't buy.

Don't judge those that do.

Eugene Norman · 27-12-2015 3:05pm

indioblack wrote: »

Yes - not the wisest thing to do. It should have been consigned to the trivia of history - but it's followed De Valera and his memory ever since.

Yes. The loyalists and anti-Irish Irish tend to make hay about this act of stupid formality. The implication is Ireland was pro-Nazi of course.

Means Of Escape · 27-12-2015 3:24pm

Palbear wrote: »

Mine.
The Nazis were murderers.
Maybe not all of them but certainly very many were.
Profiteering from selling their artefacts is not something I view favourably.

Admire and value the craftsmanship of the weapon not the user .

indioblack · 27-12-2015 3:57pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes. The loyalists and anti-Irish Irish tend to make hay about this act of stupid formality. The implication is Ireland was pro-Nazi of course.

If someone wanted a stick to beat the Free State with, DeValera supplied it.
As I recall the story, Dr. Hempel was a friend of DeValera. He was the representative of the German state in Dublin. I'm sure Herr Hempel would've understood if DeValera had done nothing when Hitler died.
Protocol is often advanced an excuse - but, for obvious reasons, protocol could have been overlooked in this case.

droidman123 · 27-12-2015 4:02pm

indioblack wrote: »

If someone wanted a stick to beat the Free State with, DeValera supplied it.
As I recall the story, Dr. Hempel was a friend of DeValera. He was the representative of the German state in Dublin. I'm sure Herr Hempel would've understood if DeValera had done nothing when Hitler died.
Protocol is often advanced an excuse - but, for obvious reasons, protocol could have been overlooked in this case.

You have to remember at that time though,that any enemy of britain was a friend of ireland

Eugene Norman · 27-12-2015 4:13pm

droidman123 wrote: »

You have to remember at that time though,that any enemy of britain was a friend of ireland

No that wasn't it. It was protocol. Ireland in fact helped the allies more than the axis.

I bet that western countries sent condolences when Stalin died. That's standard unless you are at a formally declared war.

steddyeddy · 27-12-2015 4:15pm

indioblack wrote: »

If someone wanted a stick to beat the Free State with, DeValera supplied it.
As I recall the story, Dr. Hempel was a friend of DeValera. He was the representative of the German state in Dublin. I'm sure Herr Hempel would've understood if DeValera had done nothing when Hitler died.
Protocol is often advanced an excuse - but, for obvious reasons, protocol could have been overlooked in this case.

Churchill was racist and anti Semitic therefore all of England is.

droidman123 · 27-12-2015 4:17pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No that wasn't it. It was protocol. Ireland in fact helped the allies more than the axis.

I bet that western countries sent condolences when Stalin died. That's standard unless you are at a formally declared war.

I meant it as semi metaphorical.the point is those days were totally different in politics and socio situations.i doubt if any of the dictators in africa or elsewhere died in these days that a representation from any of the western countries would be made.

indioblack · 27-12-2015 4:31pm

droidman123 wrote: »

You have to remember at that time though,that any enemy of britain was a friend of Ireland

Understood. I think timing plays the main part in this story.
It could be argued that there was, effectively, no German state at this time - which is why I suggest protocol could have been overlooked.

Tony EH · 27-12-2015 4:40pm

Palbear wrote: »

Mine.
The Nazis were murderers.
Maybe not all of them but certainly very many were.
Profiteering from selling their artefacts is not something I view favourably.

Why should anyone care about your "morals"?

What about Roman coins? Or Red Army medals? Or British Army decorations?

Do you think Trajan's column should be demolished? A monument that celebrates the complete extermination of a whole nation?

Or are your "morals" reserved only for one aspect of history?

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 4:44pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Why should anyone care about your "morals"?

What about Roman coins? Or Red Army medals? Or British Army decorations?

Do you think Trajan's column should be demolished? A monument that celebrates the complete extermination of a whole nation?

Or are your "morals" reserved only for one aspect of history?

Well if we're going down that route I've first dibs on the bronze reliefs on the Wellington monument

indioblack · 27-12-2015 4:48pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Churchill was racist and anti Semitic therefore all of England is.

So pleased you've avoided sweeping generalisations.

steddyeddy · 27-12-2015 4:50pm

indioblack wrote: »

So pleased you've avoided sweeping generalisations.

Actually I'm just parodying the "Dev sent condolences" posts that are appearing here.

indioblack · 27-12-2015 5:01pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually I'm just parodying the "Dev sent condolences" posts that are appearing here.

OK. Sorry.
Irony detector must be pretty low today!

Tony EH · 27-12-2015 5:02pm

indioblack wrote: »

If someone wanted a stick to beat the Free State with, DeValera supplied it.
As I recall the story, Dr. Hempel was a friend of DeValera. He was the representative of the German state in Dublin. I'm sure Herr Hempel would've understood if DeValera had done nothing when Hitler died.
Protocol is often advanced an excuse - but, for obvious reasons, protocol could have been overlooked in this case.

Why? The full extent of nazi wrongdoing hadn't been made clear in May 1945 and Dev was merely engaging in basic protocol, as did a number of other neutral nations IIRC.

This is largely the problem when talking to people about WWII, Hitler and nazi party. They think everybody was as "well versed" in the history as they think they are themselves.

Few people had any real idea what was going on in Poland or the Soviet Union. There were rumors, but that was it, largely. There was nothing confirmed and rumors were rife about EVERY nation during the war, propagated by every side.

It actually took quite a while before anything substantial was on the record and even then it was mixed with a lot of hearsay, circumstantial evidence, propaganda and even outright lies as is the normal route of things during a war. Then, after Nuremberg, nobody talked about it for nearly 40 years. Nowadays, everyone thinks they know everything about the nazis and WWII because they've read a book or two and saw a few History Channel programmes.

The simple fact is, during the war, you believed what you believed was correct and in an age without the internet, instant news reporting and 24 hour communication, that information was often hideously wrong.

So while there's quite a bit to beat DeValera with, his offering of condolences to the German nation upon the death of their head of State really isn't one of them.

Tony EH · 27-12-2015 5:03pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Well if we're going down that route I've first dibs on the bronze reliefs on the Wellington monument

Fakes.

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 5:34pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Fakes.

Would still look good in the garden.

Freak Midget · 27-12-2015 7:03pm

Palbear wrote: »

Mine.
The Nazis were murderers.
Maybe not all of them but certainly very many were.
Profiteering from selling their artefacts is not something I view favourably.

No one cares about your morals, nobody cares that you're offended. There's a lot I admire about the Third Reich and I don't care if that upsets you. And would be you equally offended if you saw Allied memorabilia on sale? After all the good guys fire bombed cities and raped civilians.

Freak Midget · 27-12-2015 7:05pm

Tony EH wrote: »

So while there's quite a bit to beat DeValera with, his offering of condolences to the German nation upon the death of their head of State really isn't one of them.

Exactly. We were a neutral nation. Why wouldn't DeValera have offered condolences to the Germans?

Tony EH · 27-12-2015 7:17pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Would still look good in the garden.

For an extra few bob, I can get you the real ones. :cool:

StudentDad · 27-12-2015 8:28pm

Freak Midget wrote: »

Exactly. We were a neutral nation. Why wouldn't DeValera have offered condolences to the Germans?

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car. In the same vein, Irish men and women who said sod this and went and fought with UK forces were treated as traitors when they came back after the war. Feck sake we didn't even have the decency to call it a war. We called it the 'Emergency.' Still do as far as I know.

As regards being Neutral and offering condolences, we were hardly neutral. Officially neutral perhaps but in practice? Who are you kidding?

SD

Dyr · 27-12-2015 8:31pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car. In the same vein, Irish men and women who said sod this and went and fought with UK forces were treated as traitors when they came back after the war. Feck sake we didn't even have the decency to call it a war. We called it the 'Emergency.' Still do as far as I know.

As regards being Neutral and offering condolences, we were hardly neutral. Officially neutral perhaps but in practice? Who are you kidding?

SD

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

StudentDad · 27-12-2015 8:39pm

Bambi wrote: »

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

Really? You honestly think the Irish army would have lasted five minutes against the Wehrmacht had they conquered the UK and set their guns on us? Those traitors as you call them put their lives on the line for us and we treated them abhorrently. Were it not for them we'd be singing a whole different national anthem. Assuming of course good auld Hitler didn't just gas the lot of us!

SD

Eugene Norman · 27-12-2015 8:46pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car. In the same vein, Irish men and women who said sod this and went and fought with UK forces were treated as traitors when they came back after the war. Feck sake we didn't even have the decency to call it a war. We called it the 'Emergency.' Still do as far as I know.

As regards being Neutral and offering condolences, we were hardly neutral. Officially neutral perhaps but in practice? Who are you kidding?

SD

It's hard to know what your argument is. On one case you are arguing that we were biased towards the allies, in the other case you seek to imply we were anti-allies.

Also we called it the emergency because we weren't at war.

Eugene Norman · 27-12-2015 8:47pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Really? You honestly think the Irish army would have lasted five minutes against the Wehrmacht had they conquered the UK and set their guns on us? Those traitors as you call them put their lives on the line for us and we treated them abhorrently. Were it not for them we'd be singing a whole different national anthem. Assuming of course good auld Hitler didn't just gas the lot of us!

SD

They deserted the Irish army. In most countries they would have been shot in return.

Dyr · 27-12-2015 8:51pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Really? You honestly think the Irish army would have lasted five minutes against the Wehrmacht had they conquered the UK and set their guns on us? Those traitors as you call them put their lives on the line for us and we treated them abhorrently. Were it not for them we'd be singing a whole different national anthem. Assuming of course good auld Hitler didn't just gas the lot of us!

SD

Indeed, we'd all be talking german instead of our native english :rolleyes:
They got off remarkably lightly for desertion. Not even a prison sentence.

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 9:11pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

They deserted the Irish army. In most countries they would have been shot in return.

Actually, they didn't desert, unless you can show their intent was to remain permanently away.

And the Americans only shot one deserter, of about 20,000+ convicted deserters - Eddie Slovik, executed as an example, rather than because his case was especially notorious.

Even at its worst the British Army sentenced only about 10% of convicted deserters to death, and 'only' shot about 10% of those sentenced.

So in most countries they wouldn't have been shot, even if, in the unlikely event, they'd been convicted of desertion.

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 9:16pm

Bambi wrote: »

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

Not according to the Constitution and the Treason Act.

Dyr · 27-12-2015 9:18pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Not according to the Constitution and the Treason Act.

Should'nt you be painting post boxes red or something?

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 9:23pm

Bambi wrote: »

Should'nt you be painting post boxes red or something?

No, the it's too cold for painting - paint doesn't dry well at these temperatures.

Fact is, the soldiers in question were at worst guilty of being AWOL/withdrawing from a post without leave/quitting the ranks without leave......not treason.

Tony EH · 27-12-2015 9:40pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car.

It's a bit of a post war myth that Allied (or British) airmen were "let go" up the north and the Gerries were kept under closer watch.

The fact is that neither side were particularly well guarded and if there were escapes, guards tended to look the other way in a few cases. The problem for the Germans is that once they had escaped the internment camp, managed to get away with hiding their accent (assuming they even spoke English , never mind Irish) and survived in the open Irish countryside, they then had the Channel to cross and that was no mean feat. So, the vast majority chose to sit out the war in the relative comfort of a very relaxed Irish prison camp. They were even let head out to the local pubs on occasion.

There are a number of cases where RAF airmen who had reached the north were returned to the Curragh and found themselves interred again.

Simple fact was that the German personnel had a pretty insurmountable obstacle in their way compared to the British personnel who managed to make it back to England.

StudentDad · 27-12-2015 9:44pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's hard to know what your argument is. On one case you are arguing that we were biased towards the allies, in the other case you seek to imply we were anti-allies.

Also we called it the emergency because we weren't at war.

Officially we were 'neutral' in practice we were hardly that. We benefitted from the protection of UK/Commonwealth forces initially and US forces later on in the war. I know of people who went to fight in WWII against the Third Reich and were treated as traitors on their return. Whether they were members of the Irish Armed Forces or private citizens too many of them were treated badly by both official and unofficial Ireland. At the end of the hostilities after benefitting from the protection of Allied forces we then turn around and give a diplomatic slap in the face to those very forces who protected us by offering condolences on the death of Hitler. (A man who killed himself rather than face the consequences of his actions).

SD

Dyr · 27-12-2015 10:00pm

StudentDad wrote: »

Officially we were 'neutral' in practice we were hardly that. We benefitted from the protection of UK/Commonwealth forces initially and US forces later on in the war.

Fascinating, how did the allies protect us when nobody was at war with us

StudentDad · 27-12-2015 10:08pm

Bambi wrote: »

Fascinating, how did the allies protect us when nobody was at war with us

You honestly think a little thing like 'neutrality' would have stopped Hitler had he gotten past Allied forces? Nevermind the fact that UBoats sunk Irish shipping with impunity? Friends they were not.

SD

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 10:13pm

Bambi wrote: »

Fascinating, how did the allies protect us when nobody was at war with us

By allowing fuel, products and produce bound for Ireland to be shipped on their ships......by allowing the armed forces of the country to buy supplies, equipment and spares (those Spitfires & Hurricanes didn't fly on water), sharing intelligence, co-ordinating contingency planning, etc.

Did the Germans always declare war before invading? And if we weren't at war how did the North Strand ( as well as other locations around the country) get bombed? (And if you are going to mention beam-bending, explain the physics).....and how did ships like Irish Oak, Luimneach etc get sunk?

Dyr · 27-12-2015 10:35pm

StudentDad wrote: »

You honestly think a little thing like 'neutrality' would have stopped Hitler had he gotten past Allied forces? Nevermind the fact that UBoats sunk Irish shipping with impunity? Friends they were not.

SD

Oh you're talking about makey-up what if scenarios. I thought you were talking about actual facts and that.

While we're dealing in abstraction you should note that the British had plans to invade Ireland and those lads who skipped off to take the shilling would have been serving in a belligerent nations army. Not that it would have bothered a lot of them I suspect

gandalf · 27-12-2015 10:36pm

Bambi wrote: »

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

You are aware that a lot of those men joined the Irish Armed Forces in 1939 fully expecting Ireland to side with the allies only to see Ireland declare Neutrality and realise that they'd be used for manual labour for the duration of the "Emergancy".

They decided to join forces that were fighting with a truly dreadful regime. If I was around at that time I would like to think that I would have done the same.

Dyr · 27-12-2015 10:43pm

Jawgap wrote: »

By allowing fuel, products and produce bound for Ireland to be shipped on their ships......by allowing the armed forces of the country to buy supplies, equipment and spares (those Spitfires & Hurricanes didn't fly on water), sharing intelligence, co-ordinating contingency planning, etc.

Did the Germans always declare war before invading? And if we weren't at war how did the North Strand ( as well as other locations around the country) get bombed? (And if you are going to mention beam-bending, explain the physics).....and how did ships like Irish Oak, Luimneach etc get sunk?

Would you like to look up what "protection" means before scraping the barrel? We didnt get any protection from the allies becuase the germans did'nt target us, well except for that creamery down the south that might have been bombed accidentally on purpose for selling to the british army. You want a look at what german belligerence would have looked like for us reference Belfast and Derry not some Heinkel pilot mistaking the north strand for the UK.

Might also want to explain why our "allies" in Britain stopped exporting certain goods to us at the start of the war in the hope of coercing dev onto the allies side.

Dyr · 27-12-2015 10:48pm

gandalf wrote: »

You are aware that a lot of those men joined the Irish Armed Forces in 1939 fully expecting Ireland to side with the allies only to see Ireland declare Neutrality and realise that they'd be used for manual labour for the duration of the "Emergancy".

They decided to join forces that were fighting with a truly dreadful regime. If I was around at that time I would like to think that I would have done the same.

When barely a single politician in Ireland was in favour of siding with Britain (not the allies back in '39) and it would have probably triggered a small scale civil war?

The phrase "justification after the fact" springs to mind

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 10:57pm

Bambi wrote: »

When barely a single politician in Ireland was in favour of siding with Britain (not the allies back in '39) and it would have probably triggered a small scale civil war?

The phrase "justification after the fact" springs to mind

Eh, that's not what the archives say. There were extensive contacts and planning at the highest levels from just before the war started. They even gave the politicians cool 'code' names for communication purposes. Dev was 'Wolf' and McKenna, the CoS was 'Hound.'

Dan Bryan head of G2 handled much the comms on our side. His interactions with the military attaché at the British Embassy are detailed through the archives - as well as the contacts the attaché had with various other members of the Irish political and security establishment.

gandalf · 27-12-2015 11:00pm

Bambi wrote: »

When barely a single politician in Ireland was in favour of siding with Britain (not the allies back in '39) and it would have probably triggered a small scale civil war?

The phrase "justification after the fact" springs to mind

Oh I agree they were naive if that's what they believed. One of the best things DeValera did was to keep Ireland as a country neutral during WW2 because siding with Britain would have rekindled the Civil War.

However there was two flavours of Neutrality. Full Neutrality for the Axis forces and Neutrality lite for the Allied forces.

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 11:00pm

Bambi wrote: »

Would you like to look up what "protection" means before scraping the barrel? We didnt get any protection from the allies becuase the germans did'nt target us, well except for that creamery down the south that might have been bombed accidentally on purpose for selling to the british army. You want a look at what german belligerence would have looked like for us reference Belfast and Derry not some Heinkel pilot mistaking the north strand for the UK.

Might also want to explain why our "allies" in Britain stopped exporting certain goods to us at the start of the war in the hope of coercing dev onto the allies side.

North Strand wasn't bombed?

I know it was an accident, but one theory was we were hit for sending aid to Belfast when they were blitzed - the Luftwaffe were aiming for Amiens Street Station because it was heavily used to send aid north, and receive refugees and casualties heading south.

Dyr · 27-12-2015 11:07pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Eh, that's not what the archives say. There were extensive contacts and planning at the highest levels from just before the war started. They even gave the politicians cool 'code' names for communication purposes. Dev was 'Wolf' and McKenna, the CoS was 'Hound.'

Dan Bryan head of G2 handled much the comms on our side. His interactions with the military attaché at the British Embassy are detailed through the archives - as well as the contacts the attaché had with various other members of the Irish political and security establishment.

Its what the dail record says, none of the parties came out in favour of involvement and it was the mood of the country too. I doubt anyone signed up for the free state army expecting to have a crack at the fascists. Of course they could have joined the international brigades if they were that eager and didnt mind the smack of a crozier..little interest though

There was always a plans for eventualities as to what would happen if ze germans landed here or the brits were being beaten back next door. From what I remember plan B included secret air bases for the RAF in the free state.

The brits were also trying to get the Americans onside for a potential occupation of the free state. The yanks were not supportive.

Dyr · 27-12-2015 11:11pm

Jawgap wrote: »

North Strand wasn't bombed?

I know it was an accident, but one theory was we were hit for sending aid to Belfast when they were blitzed - the Luftwaffe were aiming for Amiens Street Station because it was heavily used to send aid north, and receive refugees and casualties heading south.

It was and they nearly hit my old man and grandfather. Which technically would have been friendly fire given that he was in the IRA back then

In the grand scheme of things it was a shot across dev's bow if not purely an accident.

Bombing the creamery was obviously an act war though

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 11:17pm

Bambi wrote: »

Its what the dail record says, none of the parties came out in favour of involvement and it was the mood of the country too. I doubt anyone signed up for the free state army expecting to have a crack at the fascists. Of course they could have joined the international brigades if they were that eager and didnt mind the smack of a crozier..little interest though

There was always a plans for eventualities as to what would happen if ze germans landed here or the brits were being beaten back next door. From what I remember plan B included secret air bases for the RAF in the free state.

The brits were also trying to get the Americans onside for a potential occupation of the free state. The yanks were not supportive.

There's lots that go on behind the scenes. And let's face it, it wouldn't be the first time a politician said one thing in the Dail and did something else outside.

Yes, if the Germans had landed the plan was simple. The Irish Army would work to keep them south of the Limerick / Waterford Line, or contain any airborne landings north of that line. After 48 hours, the government would formally ask the British for assistance at which point 3 armoured columns would cross the border, escorted by Irish Army liaison officers and forces and move south.

The RAF would attack any German shipping heading for the coast but would only hit any invasion beaches after the 48 hour limit elapsed. Ultimately, the planned then called for a sector station at Baldonnel with satellites at Wexford and Shannon from which an Advanced Air Striking Force could operate. Gormanston was to be their maintenance and repair depot.

Why do you think the Brits let us buy so much of their kit?

Jawgap · 27-12-2015 11:18pm

Bambi wrote: »

It was and they nearly hit my old man and grandfather. Which technically would have been friendly fire given that he was in the IRA back then

In the grand scheme of things it was a shot across dev's bow if not purely an accident.

Bombing the creamery was obviously an act war though

Not the sinking of our ships?

Means Of Escape · 28-12-2015 12:31am

If I had the Iron Cross of Hans Rudel I would not sell it despite its uniqueness and exceptional value.

I would have zero qualms about possessing it or loaning it to a museum for display.

There are some who would put a hammer to it because of its association with the Third Reich akin to those in ISIS wiping out priceless antiquities..

Mind boggling ignorance .

Dyr · 28-12-2015 1:24am

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If I had the Iron Cross of Hans Rudel I would not sell it despite its uniqueness and exceptional value.

I would have zero qualms about possessing it or loaning it to a museum for display.

There are some who would put a hammer to it because of its association with the Third Reich akin to those in ISIS wiping out priceless antiquities..

Mind boggling ignorance .

If you had Rudels iron cross then you'd have a knights cross (with all the trimmings)

And a serious security bill I imagine

gandalf · 28-12-2015 1:30am

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If I had the Iron Cross of Hans Rudel I would not sell it despite its uniqueness and exceptional value.

I would have zero qualms about possessing it or loaning it to a museum for display.

There are some who would put a hammer to it because of its association with the Third Reich akin to those in ISIS wiping out priceless antiquities..

Mind boggling ignorance .

Precisely. If you destroy these items then you are attempting to sweep history under the carpet. Why not allow them be displayed so people can research them and their meanings themselves. I think I know the shop the OP is talking about, it's in the Powerscourt centre and yes they have memorabilia for sale and some of it is Nazi.

Nazi memorabilia for sale in Dublin. Appropriate?

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