DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

chris801127 · 11-09-2018 12:18pm

Hi Guys
Just wondering how everyone is feeling regarding their training & how everyone is going, this is my first year doing DCM & to be honest im pretty nervous, my long run is now at 32k & im doing that in around 2hr:45mins but im absolutely drained after it and wondering how im going to get the last 10k done on the day, interested to see how everyone feels

OOnegative · 11-09-2018 12:20pm

ewc78 wrote: »

In fairness I did say if you have a time goal in mind rather than just to finish. Naked lepper was looking for something else to do rather than all slow runs so that's why I offered him a bit of advice to do some Marathon paced miles. If you just want to finish then of course my advice might not be for you.

I wasn’t questioning the advice you gave, I felt it didn’t apply to Applegirl26. As you say, if your looking at running a faster time you should be incorporating faster miles into your runs.

ReeReeG · 11-09-2018 12:30pm

chris801127 wrote: »

Hi Guys
Just wondering how everyone is feeling regarding their training & how everyone is going, this is my first year doing DCM & to be honest im pretty nervous, my long run is now at 32k & im doing that in around 2hr:45mins but im absolutely drained after it and wondering how im going to get the last 10k done on the day, interested to see how everyone feels

What's your target for the marathon? Any recent HM times? It's possible you're going too hard on the long run, but more info needed I reckon!

skyblue46 · 11-09-2018 12:54pm

ReeReeG wrote: »

What's your target for the marathon? Any recent HM times? It's possible you're going too hard on the long run, but more info needed I reckon!

You're spot on there. That's the LSR training pace of a 3 hour marathon runner.

chris801127 · 11-09-2018 12:58pm

ReeReeG wrote: »

What's your target for the marathon? Any recent HM times? It's possible you're going too hard on the long run, but more info needed I reckon!

Recent half marathon was in Dingle last weekend and completed that in 1hr34 mins & my target for DCM is 3:40, Thanks

skyblue46 · 11-09-2018 12:59pm

Applegirl26 wrote: »

Oh dear why do I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach after reading this?

Before starting my training for DCM my greatest fear was that I was running "junk miles".
I've loved every moment of following a proper training plan for DCM but I'm slow. If I speed up the distance suffers.

Just to second the reply from OONeg, HHN1 is one of the most basic plans out there. It is assumed that anyone taking it on has not yet reached the level of doing speed work. Your work on long runs has been brilliant. Keep doing what you are doing.

skyblue46 · 11-09-2018 1:04pm

chris801127 wrote: »

Recent half marathon was in Dingle last weekend and completed that in 1hr34 mins & my target for DCM is 3:40, Thanks

Well done on the half. Your target time for DCM is both realistic and achievable.

So all your long runs are at or about your PMP, a bit faster perhaps. That's why you're knackered at the end of them. You are doing a long distance race every weekend effectively. The slow part of Long Slow Run is every bit as important as the long and running bits.

That 20 miler was at 8:15 pace. Drop it by 45/60 seconds which will leave you fresher, help your endurance and reduce the risk of burnout or injury.

ReeReeG · 11-09-2018 1:06pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

chris801127 wrote: »

Recent half marathon was in Dingle last weekend and completed that in 1hr34 mins & my target for DCM is 3:40, Thanks

Well done on the half. Your target time for DCM is both realistic and achievable.

So all your long runs are at or about your PMP, a bit faster perhaps. That's why you're knackered at the end of them. You are doing a long distance race every weekend effectively. The slow part of Long Slow Run is every bit as important as long and running bits.

I strongly recommend taking on skyblue's advice

(Still trying to adhere to it myself, mind)

chris801127 · 11-09-2018 1:10pm

Thanks a mill, you reckon I need to slow down my long run so? and save myself for the big day

ewc78 · 11-09-2018 1:11pm

Applegirl26 wrote: »

Oh dear why do I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach after reading this?

Before starting my training for DCM my greatest fear was that I was running "junk miles".
I've loved every moment of following a proper training plan for DCM but I'm slow. If I speed up the distance suffers.

Like I said at the very start of my post ,that plan is designed to get you to the finish, so it will work fine for you if that's what you want. Don't worry about what I said after that as it was intended for Naked Lepper. Keep doing what you're doing yourself and you'll be fine.

skyblue46 · 11-09-2018 1:14pm

chris801127 wrote: »

Thanks a mill, you reckon I need to slow down my long run so? and save myself for the big day

Your long run definitely. By the sound of things your easy days are probably a bit fast as well.

coogy · 11-09-2018 1:49pm

chris801127 wrote: »

Recent half marathon was in Dingle last weekend and completed that in 1hr34 mins & my target for DCM is 3:40, Thanks

Just to give you a sense of what you should be aiming for (although skyblue has already illustrated it perfectly), my longest lsr to date is 18 miles which I did in 2:46 at a pace of around 9:15/9:20 per mile, which is around the same time it took you to run 20 miles.
As skyblue suggests, you should certainly look into running your miles a minute slower (or thereabouts). Trust me, you'll be amazed at the difference it makes at the end!

Applegirl26 · 11-09-2018 2:18pm

ewc78 wrote: »

Like I said at the very start of my post ,that plan is designed to get you to the finish, so it will work fine for you if that's what you want. Don't worry about what I said after that as it was intended for Naked Lepper. Keep doing what you're doing yourself and you'll be fine.

I'm following the Boards plan so it has PMP sessions. I know you were talking to someone else in that reply, but I couldn't help fixate on the part about run slow and long, and that's all you'll ever achieve. Anyways it's cool.

ewc78 · 11-09-2018 2:30pm

Applegirl26 wrote: »

I'm following the Boards plan so it has PMP sessions. I know you were talking to someone else in that reply, but I couldn't help fixate on the part about run slow and long, and that's all you'll ever achieve. Anyways it's cool.

Nothing wrong with running slow and long it's just(imo) that it's just that you need to do more than that to get better. I'm only really copping on this now and Dublin Marathon this year will be my 3rd Marathon.
Don't worry about all that now though. Go run your Marathon and enjoy every single bit of it. You'll never again get to run you're first Marathon so make the most of it and get to the finish line. It's a day you'll never forget. Best of luck.

Applegirl26 · 11-09-2018 2:32pm

ewc78 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with running slow and long it's just(imo) that it's just that you need to do more than that to get better. I'm only really copping on this now and Dublin Marathon this year will be my 3rd Marathon.
Don't worry about all that now though. Go run your Marathon and enjoy every single bit of it. You'll never again get to run you're first Marathon so make the most of it and get to the finish line. It's a day you'll never forget. Best of luck.

Thanks ewc78ðŸ‘

ariana` · 11-09-2018 2:48pm

Applegirl26 wrote: »

I'm following the Boards plan so it has PMP sessions. I know you were talking to someone else in that reply, but I couldn't help fixate on the part about run slow and long, and that's all you'll ever achieve. Anyways it's cool.

You've already got great replies but i may as well throw my oar in whether it's wanted or not :P These plans are designed to prepare novice runners to run a marathon but that has to be balanced with getting them to the start line uninjured! Even on my 2nd marathon my plan is fairly basic with just a small bit more quality/intensity in the week - it's a gradual progression from the Boards plan i followed last year. I hope if i do another marathon i could step up the intensity again but take too big a leap and the risk of injury is too high for me anyhow. There's some really wise posters in these parts who recommend taking the long term view - progress at a steady pace and you'll still be running and most importantly enjoying your running and improving for a long time to come.

gypsylee · 11-09-2018 2:55pm

ariana` wrote: »

This is pretty standard practice for marathon plans, some go up to 22 miles but many (I'd go so far as to say most) max out at either 20 miles or 3hrs. What you need to remember is that you are doing 20 miles on tired legs so effectively you are training for the last 20 miles of the marathon and not the first 20 miles - there's a distinct difference! You will be starting the marathon on lovely fresh legs after a 3 week taper, you will feel amazing for those first 10k and won't feel them at all, at the 10k mark you will still have less miles in your legs than you're used to having on a Saturday/Sunday morning after a week of running. It's the accumulated fatigue factor. Trust the plan

Thank you so much for posting this. The plan having a LSR of 20 miles and not a greater distance makes so much sense now. Trust the plan.

Huzzah! · 11-09-2018 3:00pm

ariana` wrote: »

You've already got great replies but i may as well throw my oar in whether it's wanted or not :P These plans are designed to prepare novice runners to run a marathon but that has to be balanced with getting them to the start line uninjured! Even on my 2nd marathon my plan is fairly basic with just a small bit more quality/intensity in the week - it's a gradual progression from the Boards plan i followed last year. I hope if i do another marathon i could step up the intensity again but take too big a leap and the risk of injury is too high for me anyhow. There's some really wise posters in these parts who recommend taking the long term view - progress at a steady pace and you'll still be running and most importantly enjoying your running and improving for a long time to come.

Yep - and I think the term "junk miles" sometimes gets incorrectly applied to easy miles. "Junk miles" are miles that serve no purpose. Running lots of slow and easy miles in marathon training serves the very useful purpose of getting us fit enough to toe the line on the big day and hopefully enjoy the experience of our first marathon.

RayCun · 11-09-2018 3:18pm

There is no such thing as the right training plan.

Last year I ran x miles, y times a week, and did sessions a, b, and c regularly.
Someone else ran p miles, q times a week, and did v and w sessions regularly.

Give me a training plan that is exactly what I did last year, and I'm not going to progress much. Give me the training plan that the other runner followed last year and I'll get injured. Give me a different plan and it will be too easy.

A plan has to push you to do more - more/harder sessions, more miles, more days running, more non-running work - but it can't be more of everything at once, or you'll get injured.

Hal Higdon Novice 1 is designed for someone who is coming from a low mileage background, not a lot of running experience, but wants to complete a marathon. It assumes that adding more miles is all the runner can manage without getting injured, and if you can only push one thing, that's the thing to push.

The Boards plan is designed for someone with a bit more experience, who has more base mileage and so can handle adding sessions too, or is already doing sessions so can handle the additional miles.

P&D is designed for someone a bit more advanced. Daniels is more advanced again. The Hanson plan is for someone who already has a lot of miles, and so on.

ariana` · 11-09-2018 3:36pm

gypsylee wrote: »

ariana` wrote: »

This is pretty standard practice for marathon plans, some go up to 22 miles but many (I'd go so far as to say most) max out at either 20 miles or 3hrs. What you need to remember is that you are doing 20 miles on tired legs so effectively you are training for the last 20 miles of the marathon and not the first 20 miles - there's a distinct difference! You will be starting the marathon on lovely fresh legs after a 3 week taper, you will feel amazing for those first 10k and won't feel them at all, at the 10k mark you will still have less miles in your legs than you're used to having on a Saturday/Sunday morning after a week of running. It's the accumulated fatigue factor. Trust the plan

Thank you so much for posting this. The plan having a LSR of 20 miles and not a greater distance makes so much sense now. Trust the plan.

What i also neglected to say is that the adrenalin and support on the day will also get you around those last 10k. The support in DCM is amazing, you won't believe it until you experience it but it really does lift you.

Hedgehoggy · 11-09-2018 5:22pm

Jaysus..... Picked my name because of the animal - but I just discovered 'hedgehoggy' is an actual word - meaning arousing aversion, forbidding :eek::eek:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hedgehoggy

Hopefully wont be my marathon experience!!!!!

eyrie · 11-09-2018 10:34pm

Wow this thread has gotten busy lately! I've been away for the last week and a bit, and I was almost afraid to open it to see how much catching up I had to do. A LOT, it turns out... Great to see so many super 20 mile LSRs being done, and amazing race results too.
It dawned on me today that we're now well into the last full month before the marathon :eek: i.e. there's the rest of September to train and then it's around the corner! Exciting/terrifying all at the same time!

Kellygirl · 11-09-2018 10:39pm

eyrie wrote: »

Wow this thread has gotten busy lately! I've been away for the last week and a bit, and I was almost afraid to open it to see how much catching up I had to do. A LOT, it turns out... Great to see so many super 20 mile LSRs being done, and amazing race results too.
It dawned on me today that we're now well into the last full month before the marathon :eek: i.e. there's the rest of September to train and then it's around the corner! Exciting/terrifying all at the same time!

Less than 4 weeks of hard graft and we’re into taper time!!!

Helenasca · 11-09-2018 11:12pm

Kellygirl wrote:

Less than 4 weeks of hard graft and weâ€™re into taper time!!!

Wow. That is insane.

pilot1087 · 12-09-2018 11:17am

Hi all,

Is there a set rule of thumb way of planning a marathon target time based off HM/training run times?

I did the Dingle HM a couple of weeks ago in 2:02 and ran a 13.1 mile LSR on Sunday in 2:10 but felt I definitely had a few more miles in the legs after I finished. I'm working off the HHN1 plan and hoping to do the marathon itself in under 4:45. Hopefully will have a better idea after the next few LSR's once I hit the 20M mark.

Thanks for all the great hints and tips in the thread so far. (P.S. I'm Mikey in the Strava group)

aloooof · 12-09-2018 11:36am

pilot1087 wrote: »

Hi all,

Is there a set rule of thumb way of planning a marathon target time based off HM/training run times?

I did the Dingle HM a couple of weeks ago in 2:02 and ran a 13.1 mile LSR on Sunday in 2:10 but felt I definitely had a few more miles in the legs after I finished. I'm working off the HHN1 plan and hoping to do the marathon itself in under 4:45. Hopefully will have a better idea after the next few LSR's once I hit the 20M mark.

Thanks for all the great hints and tips in the thread so far. (P.S. I'm Mikey in the Strava group)

I'd have a similar HM time to you (2:00:58 from back in June). For the marathon, I just want to get through it but I'm considering going with the 4:20 pacers (9:55 min/mile); a very general rule of thumb is HM + 20 mins. For reference, my LSR's are all around the 11 min/mile range.

I'm no expert, but it might help to slow down your LSR pace. The 2:10 one you did was at 9:55 min/mile pace. If you're targetting 4:45, that's 10:53 pace so you ran your LSR a minute a mile quicker than your PMP. My understanding is your LSR's should be about 60 second per mile slower than your PMP.

skyblue46 · 12-09-2018 11:40am

pilot1087 wrote: »

Hi all,

Is there a set rule of thumb way of planning a marathon target time based off HM/training run times?

I did the Dingle HM a couple of weeks ago in 2:02 and ran a 13.1 mile LSR on Sunday in 2:10 but felt I definitely had a few more miles in the legs after I finished. I'm working off the HHN1 plan and hoping to do the marathon itself in under 4:45. Hopefully will have a better idea after the next few LSR's once I hit the 20M mark.

Thanks for all the great hints and tips in the thread so far. (P.S. I'm Mikey in the Strava group)

I'm starting to feel like a broken record at this stage and it's giving me a thumping headache!

If I'm reading this right you have a planned marathon pace of about 10:50 per mile and you did your LSR at a pace about 50 secs per mile faster? I took the liberty of having a glance through Strava and most of your runs, including recovery runs, are in the 9.xx range.

Ok, I'm off to find a big white flag.....:D

skyblue46 · 12-09-2018 11:41am

aloooof wrote: »

I'd have a similar HM time to you (2:00:58 from back in June). For the marathon, I just want to get through it but I'm considering going with the 4:20 pacers (9:55 min/mile); a very general rule of thumb is HM + 20 mins. For reference, my LSR's are all around the 11 min/mile range.

I'm no expert, but it might help to slow down your LSR pace. The 2:10 one you did was at 9:55 min/mile pace. If you're targetting 4:45, that's 10:53 pace so you ran your LSR a minute a mile quicker than your PMP. My understanding is your LSR's should be about 60 second per mile slower than your PMP.

My faith is restored!

You're all over this. Well done.

ReeReeG · 12-09-2018 11:43am

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'm starting to feel like a broken record at this stage and it's giving me a thumping headache!

If I'm reading this right you have a planned marathon pace of about 10:50 per mile and you did your LSR at a pace about 50 secs per mile faster? I took the liberty of having a glance through Strava and most of your runs, including recovery runs, are in the 9.xx range.

Ok, I'm off to find a big white flag.....:D

If it's any consolation S, your voice (or words..) was in my head as I was struggling to encourage some discipline with my pace group in the club at training last night!!! Cool down mile pace should not equal PMP.... grrrr

Safiri · 12-09-2018 11:54am

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'm starting to feel like a broken record at this stage and it's giving me a thumping headache!

Side effects of being a stubborn b*ll*x, welcome to the club:pac:

DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

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