Hansons Method

overthebridge · 07-09-2022 10:59am

Anyone else using Hanson Advanced for DCM22 ? I'm tipping away at it for the last few months. It's going pretty well. I've hit every session except the 3rd 7m Tempo where I raced a 10k on that Saturday. I can really feel the fatigue biting this week with the Strength runs taking hold.

Unthought Known · 08-09-2022 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119583356#Comment_119583356

I'm on the same plan. Apart from 9 days off in July for Covid it's been going well. I've been hitting 6 runs a week and sessions are going well. I know what you mean about the fatigue, but the legs haven't yet felt like I needed to skip anything.

Best of luck with it. Are you running the Dublin HM?

overthebridge · 09-09-2022 3:50pm

Cheers.. I'm doing Charleville Half at the end of the month. I started the plan a week early to allow for it so I'm gonna have a hop off it and see how it goes.

I'm hoping for a 325ish on the day, all the numbers so far are pointing towards that time so once I stay injury free and don't do anything stupid I will be ok.

I have to say that it's a really good plan. I got to week 6 or 7 on it back in 2020 before Covid f**ked everything up so I had confidence in it.

Murph_D · 10-09-2022 2:48am

You probably meant 1.25? Good luck. Great course, great race. Go for it. And good luck (although luck never matters)

overthebridge · 13-09-2022 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598440#Comment_119598440

Apologies, I should have said that 325ish is my marathon target. I reckon 137/138 for Charleville. I'll go with the 140 pacers for a bit and kick on once turn after Killmallock. It will be nice to practice gels/water/clothes etc on a proper race day. It's coming up on 3 yrs since I raced anything longer than a 10k.

DeepBlue · 16-09-2022 9:58pm

7 weeks in here for a December marathon and it definitely feels like it's ramping up a bit but not into the "completely battered" phase yet.

Given that Hanson's discourages racing how do people figure out if they should adjust their goal marathon pace if they think they may be getting fitter and a more ambitious target might be attainable?

Sandwell · 17-09-2022 9:21am

I think the consensus around here is that racing once or twice during the plan is no problem if you drop the Thursday and Tuesday sessions around it. If I were you I'd try and race a 10 mile or a half marathon 4-6 weeks out and base my marathon pace off the result using one of the race equivalency calculators.

If you decide to stick to the letter of the plan then it will come down to the weekly MP tempo sessions. If you're finishing them feeling like you could carry on at that pace for a few more miles then it's probably a bit too easy and you could try dropping the pace by 5-10 seconds per mile the following week and see how that feels.

Murph_D · 17-09-2022 8:14pm

Another approach some have used is to keep an eye on your HR - or your perceived effort if you're good at judging - during the marathon pace tempos. If the effort levels get lower as the runs get longer that's a sign you might up the target a little. Of course the opposite is also true!

DeepBlue · 19-09-2022 8:48pm

Thanks @Sandwell and @Murph_D

There may be scope to drop PMP by 5s or so but I'll see over the next week or so. If changing I'd like to do so as early as possible to get the max benefit of remaining training at the new paces. I don't think I'm going to race again in this block as it's too disruptive imo. Gonna trust the plan and see how it plays out.

Trampas · 20-09-2022 6:33pm

If doing a half I try and do it on a course that’s similar set up for a full. Give you a good idea where you stand.

No point in doing a flat half if doing a hilly marathon as you might think I’m capable for a faster run than you think for course. Other way you might be faster in full than half time predicts

Unknownability · 20-09-2022 8:13pm

Penultimate speed session done today, wasn't very enjoyable tired legs are really kicking in now.

3 sessions left and then the big day.

Unknownability · 10-10-2022 10:59pm

Hanson delivered again, was aiming for sub 3'10 and got a 3'02.

That was with circa 70-80% of the plan adhered to due to socialising & general idiocy and testing positive for Covid the week of the race.

Trust the plan.

Unthought Known · 11-10-2022 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119728355#Comment_119728355

Congratulations, an amazing time! How did you feel in the last 10 miles? Did you feel that Hansons helped you keep pushing on tired legs?

That's a big gain on your target time. What did you set out for in the first few miles?

Congrats again, really impressive! I take it you're looking at sub-3 next?

Unknownability · 11-10-2022 2:43pm

Thank you.

I felt really strong throughout the entire race bar a 3 or 4 minute period.

I set off behind the 3'05 pacer and caught up with them by mile 3 and then I literally just sat within 10 feet of them until we crossed mile 18. They were like robots within 5 seconds of the desired pace every mile.

When we got to 10m I knew I was going to get my desired goal of a Boston time and was very happy with heart rate which was around 151 (slightly higher than usual which was the case all week due to covid).

We got to Mile 18 and unconsciously found myself pulling away. I ran mile 19 & 20 @6'30 and that's when I had the period of doubt. I had kicked too early and didn't think I'd be able to hold that pace so went back to 6'50 - 7'05 for the last 10k. So those two fast miles gave me a slightly negative split of 90 seconds or so.

I had thoughts about going sub 3 for a few minutes but having only done two marathons previously I have this fear of blowing up and not finishing and just wanting to enjoy the race with high 5's and stuff.

Looking back if I feel if I'd ran with the 3hr pacer I would've got it but I wouldn't have enjoyed it worrying if I was going to blow up.

Next goal is the natural step of sub 3, I'm in the London and Berlin lotteries so if I get either that will be it and then in 2024 hopefully that time gets me into Boston.

I've never really raced any other distance, I've done one 5k a few years ago and then two half marathons which I didn't really race. Like I got my half marathon PB in the marathon So might do some of them next.

Having used Hanson twice I first trained for a 3'15 got 3'10 and now 3'05 and got 3'02. I'll definitely use it again and try to get my adherence to the plan up to around 90-95%.

Sandwell · 18-10-2022 9:40am

I've followed two Hansons plans this year, one for a half and one for a full marathon. In both cases they've taken me exactly to my goal time while feeling relatively strong and comfortable in doing so. I followed the plans fairly closely but did adapt them to fit in club interval sessions on Tuesdays (which syncs neatly with the plan structure) and to add in the odd race here and there.

The key session is undoubtedly the long Thursday tempo at goal pace while running on tired legs from Tuesday's intervals. You internalise race pace so well that even when tiring during the latter stages of the marathon the pace doesn't really fall off.

I used Luke Humphreys own race equivalency calculator at the start of each cycle and plugged in a recent 5k time (for the half) and then the half time for the full. I suppose in some ways these predicted times are a self-fulfilling prophecy as you train weekly at that pace for several months. That said, the predictor only suggests what you'd be capable of if you trained specifically for a particular distance. The plans then enable you to do just that.

As for the perennial question of the feasibility of that 16 mile limit on the long run, while I did go further than that on two occasions during the marathon block, I don't believe it made any difference to my performance. As I mentioned above, I did so just to get some experience of spending longer that two hours on my feet since I hadn't run a marathon in years. If following the plan again for a marathon next year I'd have no hesitation whatsoever at topping out at 16. Sixteen miles at MP+40 on tired legs is a very tough session and really does prepare you specifically for the later stages of a marathon.

rooneyjm · 01-11-2022 4:56pm

Finally cracked sub 3 on Sunday (2.58.20). This year I used no plans just ran all my runs under 140 bpm. No speed work no tempos. Did the Frank Duffy fast and pb’ed. Then pb’ed the HM 1.23.40.

Not sexy and probably wouldn’t sell many books but lots and lots of easy miles seems to work.

Murph_D · 02-11-2022 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819923#Comment_119819923

Not very Hanson related but well done! Where is 140 bpm in relation to your max or your HR reserve?

rooneyjm · 02-11-2022 8:50pm

I posted here previously and used Hanson twice before. More of an update than anything.

Not sure to be honest. It came from 185, max heart rate, minus my age.

Unknownability · 02-11-2022 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119825788#Comment_119825788

Was it a maffatone (sic) style training plan you used? How did you decide what distances to run?

rooneyjm · 03-11-2022 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119826012#Comment_119826012

Started watching a few videos on YouTube as you do on MAF/ low heart rate training. A guy call Floris Gierman interviews people who have done well with it.

I wasn’t really feeling another Hanson plan and thought why not.

Started doing 50 miles a week in May for about 6 weeks, went on holidays, didn’t run. Came back an upped it to 60-65.

Why 60-65. Hanson tops out around there and in one of the interviews a guest mentioned for a sub 3 you should be averaging 67miles @ 8.00 min pace for the last 8 weeks before taper week.

Murph_D · 04-11-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119830725#Comment_119830725

Friend of mine ran a sub-3 for the first time at age 53 using the standard Hanson approach. No need to increase the mileage in my opinion, or at least not for a sub-3.

rooneyjm · 05-11-2022 10:03pm

well you can run less miles fast or more miles slow. either way you can get the adaption needed.

I’ve ran 3.01 with Hanson and 2.58 just running easy miles (7.50-9.00) and the latter is easier on the body, less risk of injury, resulted in more weight loss ( free speed). People get hung up on paces for sessions. At the end of the day it’s not important once you are getting the miles in.

I’ll definitely be using the easy miles route again. Race your races and enjoy the rest.

Murph_D · 05-11-2022 10:56pm

OK - that’s really interesting but are you sure you can pinpoint the difference to the easy miles? As this is a Hanson thread maybe it’s worth breaking it down a bit more. And just to play devils advocate, are you sure the Hanson paces you used previously were correct for your state of fitness? If they were too fast for instance that would have had a negative effect, and therefore easy miles (with maybe a neutral stimulus) would give you a better result. But in that case correct structured Hanson paces (positive stimulus) would have given you an even better result - all other things being equal of course - conditions, course profile, your state of preparation, sleep etc.

I mean you had a great result and hit the goal but I don’t see the connection with the easy miles other than they didn’t do you any harm. I love doing easy miles - lots of them - but I can’t agree that your result is solely down to ditching appropriately paced faster stuff.

What’s your longer marathon history?

Lazare · 26-05-2023 11:51pm

Just took delivery of the 2nd edition last week.

I'm really loving it so far. Every single stride and step we make in our training has purpose and meaning, or at least it should. What I love about the book is how well it educates you on what that purpose is.

I'm absolutely going to commit to it for Amsterdam.

I have one question (so far 😉) for veterans of the method.

I could search back through the thread but hey, opening up discussion is healthy.

For the Thursday tempo runs, the MP runs, the idea behind is to dial in and internalise that effort, to get the body familiar with running at that pace.

I read a post above from @Sandwell where he said that those sessions were key, and that they really did internalise that pace.

How are you determining what that pace is 15 weeks out though?

Are you running a predicted goal pace or a marathon effort?

If my current fitness suggests x pace, but my prediction for race day is y pace, should I run those sessions at x or y?

Sandwell · 27-05-2023 8:36am

@Lazare Best of luck with Hansons. I started it again this week as it happens and I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it as I build for Berlin.

I took the MP from their own equivalence chart based on the time I had run in a recent half-marathon. I'm sure a 10k time or whatever would work just as well, in fact I'll be using a recent 10k PB this time around. It translated pretty much exactly to the time I ran on the day. It's worth mentioning that the pace felt hard in most of those sessions, harder than seemed realistic, and I was often a few seconds off the target average by the end of the session. Also, my heart rate was often a good bit higher than where it should be for marathon pace. I think you have to accept that you'll be running these sessions on tired legs, in the middle of the work week, and often in less than ideal weather conditions and allow for a bit of slippage.

I found that the 3 week repetition of the distance of those sessions generally led to the effort feeling a bit easier from week to week which was good for the confidence. Then you'd add another mile and it would feel impossible again! I always used the same route where possible, otherwise you'd be doubting yourself.

So to answer your question briefly I'd say trust the calculator and go with that. If it's anything like my experience then that pace will feel harder than "marathon effort" in training but will feel comfortable on the day (at least until the last 10k).

https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/hmmcalculator/race_equivalency_calculator.php

Lazare · 27-05-2023 12:55pm

That's a brilliant answer Sandwell.

I'm excited about taking it on now.

One thing I did learn alright from last year's DCM block was just as you said, MP feels a whole lot different on race day. So hopefully I won't lose heart when it inevitably feels tough on a Thursday morning 😊

Lazare · 01-07-2023 10:37pm

Interested to find out how people's target evolved or otherwise over the course of the program.

I ran my first Thurs tempo this week and it felt quite good, feels like my target is on point.

I struggled initially with the idea of running goal MP 16 weeks out, rather than current fitness but the logic of it now seems clear.

Is the idea that you should be able to feel comfortable at goal pace, at this stage, for six miles, and that in six weeks time it should feel comfy at 8 miles, and so on?

Interested to hear of others' experience with that. I'm more than willing to readjust the target if necessary.

I really love this plan. Having that feedback every Thursday is so fantastic.

Murph_D · 02-07-2023 12:26am

I think that IS the idea, yes.

A runner like yourself with excellent base conditioning and realistic marathon target should be able to pull off the initial sessions easily enough. My own experience with this plan is that it gets harder as it goes on, because of the legendary so-called 'cumulative fatigue'. But you're always in control. When I did this plan the first couple of times I used to feel that the speed sessions were handy enough as I was coming from P&D with more aggressive speed. But I soon learned that the Thurs MP session, carried off two days after the speed/strength session, was the key to the whole thing (and of course the speed/strength sessions are contributing massively to that MP session and how it feels.).

Relentless and sometimes really, really hard, but absolutely targeted at dialling in marathon pace (whatever it turns out to be by the end) from the beginning.

A great approach. You can sign up with Luke H for a bit of online assistance during the plan, and maybe a few adjustments, but I honestly would not recommend that you do that the first one, two or three times around - the method is fine as originally designed.

It's actually made for a runner like you, and I think you'll respond brilliantly to it.

Lazare · 02-07-2023 10:10am

Thank you very much D. Really nice of you to say all of that. 👍

Mitch Buchannon · 05-07-2023 12:12pm

Just jumping in on this thread.

I am also using Hanson's for the first time. I am two weeks into it at the moment..I feel I do well with structure, and like knowing exactly what I am supposed to do, how fast etc.

I have used HH plans (via the HH app) for the last few marathons and a couple of 50k's . I felt it was time for a change.

Running 6 days a week will be a step up for me but I will enjoy seeing how I compare this time round with a new plan.

Unthought Known · 05-07-2023 1:38pm

Jumping in with Hansons for the 3rd time, for Dublin. I previously used it for Manchester 2019 where I cracked 3:30 pretty comfortably, and Dublin 2022 where I crashed and burned from mile 21 going for 3:20, despite feeling like I nailed training. I used P&D for London '23 to finally go sub 3:20 and had that plan pinned on my fridge again for DCM, but I fancy a change so here we are again.

Lazare · 02-09-2023 11:44am

How are things going for everyone?

I'm still loving it. It's tough, it's relentless, I'm dying for sleep every night but it's fantastic. Really enjoying it.

First 9m Tempo Thurs gone. Had a fair bit of apprehension Wed evening, especially after a slog of a strength session the previous day (4x 1.5m).

Nailed the pace though and felt comfortable throughout. Did random talk tests to check the effort and all good.

Target pace is 4:30km, adjusted from 4:23 at the start. Had a bump in the road with a hip/glute issue that meant missing a couple of weeks. Still ran (bar 4x prescribed consecutive rest days) but off plan and easy. So I reassessed my target, dropped from 3:05 to 3:10.

Tempos have been going well..

Mid July physio prescribed 4m - 4:29km average

7m - 4:34

8m - 4:30

(Skipped the following to race FD10)

8m - 4:30

9m - 4:30

Signs seem good based on that I think.

chabsey · 02-09-2023 6:22pm

Going ok for me....am totally wiped out by some of the sessions and my HR was all over the place for that tempo run but mainly it was high. I'll give it a couple more weeks before deciding my target time.

Sandwell · 02-09-2023 7:11pm

I'm nearly done. I have my last 16 mile steady run tomorrow and then it's just 4 sessions left before taper.

I ran a 75 min half in Tullamore last week, almost a 3 minute pb, so the plan has delivered already. That time points to a 2:36 marathon but I've been training for 2:38 (targeting 6 minute miles in the tempos) and I'm not going to get greedy at this stage.

Lazare · 02-09-2023 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061078#Comment_121061078

That's awesome man, fair play. What a half performance, off no taper too!

You're right not to get greedy, something I'm mentally battling with myself tbh, you're gonna smash it in Berlin.

Lazare · 02-09-2023 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060920#Comment_121060920

How does right now compare to previous?

You smashed your 3:15 goal before with the method, are you feeling differently right now?

chabsey · 03-09-2023 8:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061303#Comment_121061303

Definitely harder this time. I checked back on my last use of Hanson's and my tempo runs to see how I did, I was hitting all my paces and in many cases was 5-10 seconds quicker for a good few KM of those runs. Not so this time, which is frustrating cause I've put in months of base work this time and never bothered before. I also missed a bunch of the sessions last time, and haven't missed one so far this time. I suppose it comes down to age, I'm 5 years older than last time and that's possibly just too much.

Murph_D · 03-09-2023 12:18pm

I wouldn't put it down to age - there's a massive difference between those two training targets! I'd say it's because you are now much closer to your maximum potential. The relative effort is greater.

Sandwell · 03-09-2023 5:35pm

Agree with @Murph_D. For what it's worth, I very rarely hit exact goal pace during the tempos. I'm usually 5-10 seconds off and I don't think I've ever been quicker than goal.

chabsey · 03-09-2023 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121064324#Comment_121064324

Thanks, that's heartening to hear. After my 16km sweat-fest today my max HR increased, according to my watch anyway. Which was nice.

Mitch Buchannon · 03-09-2023 9:53pm

It's going well for me as a first time Hansons user. I'm enjoying the Tuesday and Thursday sessions. I can feel and see an improvement so that's a positive.

I was able to take off work for the summer with my kids so I could easily fit in all my runs. Now I'm back, it's going to be difficult to fit them in between my 12hr shifts. For example I was out this morning for 26k and I'm in now for a 12hr night shift. I also have another night tomorrow so I'm going to do my easy run when I get home at 0530. That will definitely add to the fatigue. However the end is in sight and I expect I can keep it up until the 29oct.

It's great to hear things are going well for everyone so far. Let's keep it up !

TheRef · 04-09-2023 7:58am

I'm starting week 11 as a first timer on Hanson, following the Advanced Plan. I got COVID two weeks ago which kept me in bed for a day and a half. Took a few days off and then mostly kept up with the volume but at an easy pace. I ran the tempo run Friday just gone and feel like I'll be back in to it as prescribed as I prepare for DCM.

Excluding the two weeks I've been affected by COVID, I hit all paces quite comfortably, although I never really enjoy the speed intervals. Glad they are over actually as the strength paces look more down my street.

Lazare · 05-09-2023 7:57pm

Hanson really makes you love the oul Wednesdays 😄

chabsey · 06-09-2023 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121073891#Comment_121073891

So true. Tuesday nights being the only drinking night now.

degzs · 08-09-2023 9:36am

First time Hanson user here and the load was too much as i ended up with a stress fracture on the foot. I came from a strong base but the increased miles was to much.

The Dublin 3 hour will have to wait for next year and review if Hanson is best suited.

Sandwell · 08-09-2023 11:08am

Not the best conditions for those marathon pace tempos this week. 🥵

Sandwell · 08-09-2023 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083877#Comment_121083877

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully the recovery will be straight forward and you can have a good crack at going sub 3 next year.

TheRef · 08-09-2023 11:26am

Yesterdays 13k tempo didn't go well at all. I knew before I started it was going to be very tough as I headed out about 11am, and didn't adjust the pace to the temp. About 8k into it, I just pulled up and needed a minute break as I had zero energy. I was completely bushed. I did get going again and managed to get to 12.5k after a couple more short breaks but decided then it was pointless trying to continue as it wasn't doing me good.

Now, on the flip side, I'm really looking forward to todays run after work. I will likely be hot but its an easy run today so should be great to get out.

Lazare · 08-09-2023 12:27pm

The trick is to do them at 6am guys.

Was absolutely perfect conditions yesterday morning at that time.

Definitely need to adjust target pace running the middle of the day.

chabsey · 08-09-2023 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084432#Comment_121084432

Thank god for this thread, I was feeling pretty deflated by the run yesterday. Only free time I had to run it was midday (alongside all the mad dogs and Englishmen ), usual strong headwind for the first half coupled with the heat and humidity meant paces really went out the window. I actually had to stop at the mid way point due to a stitch and just generally feeling like I couldn't continue. Got it all done and dusted about 20 seconds over pace on average but also ended it feeling absolutely wrecked. I'd forgotten how debilitating sweat pouring into your eyes is, another lovely addition to an awful session.

Hansons Method

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