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Hansons Method

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  • Here is a version I made in miles and kms

    (RE excel speadsheet on page 1)
    What is the difference between easy and long run pace here?

    Long run = MP + 30s
    easy = ?




  • mathie wrote: »
    (RE excel speadsheet on page 1)
    What is the difference between easy and long run pace here?

    Long run = MP + 30s
    easy = ?

    https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/hmmcalculator/race_equivalency_calculator.php

    Slightly more conservative than the book, I believe.




  • Huzzah! wrote: »
    I used it for my first and found it great. Would you not recommend it because of the long run?

    That and the lack of prescribed races. Most novices will benefit from doing a bunch of races in the buildup to a marathon. When you're more experienced as a marathoner I think it matters less.




  • adrian522 wrote: »
    Sorry to hear things didn't go to plan. Just wondering what your marathon history is like? Have you done many marathons before?

    I'm sort of thinking this plan may be more suitable for folks that have a lot of endurance built up over a few years training but may not be as suitable for those who are newer to marathon running.

    I've never followed the plan but I have the book and would consider using it.

    That was my tenth marathon spread evenly enough from 2009. Although no marathon in 2017 or 2018.

    PB 3:04:08 in 2012 using the club plan.

    Marathons after that were all around 3:30 using no plan and just winging it to jog around for the craic.




  • Kissy Lips wrote: »
    Brief synopsis of plan and results.


    the plan
    Of the 917 prescribed miles (which includes the marathon) I did 901 miles. I missed the very first SOS (6 mile MP tempo) and then skipped an easy run in the last week. So I did over 98% of the plan. More importantly I hit the target paces in all SOS sessions.


    Some examples of keys sessions:
    - The last nine MP tempo runs I did at 6:50/mile. The rest were at 6:52/mile.
    - The last three 16 mile long runs I did at 7:14/mile. The rest were at about 7:21/mile.
    - All of the strength sessions I did at 6:40/mile pace.


    I kept the easy running easy, and let my body decide the pace anywhere in that 2 minute range over MP. Early in the plan I would be easy at 7:50/mile but as the distances increased easy would drift out more toward 8:50/mile. Not always but when it was needed after the SOS. I was happy with that as it was also about recovery.


    The plan was hugely enjoyable to follow. I loved the MP tempos in the park at 6am in July and August with the Sun rising and birds singing. I enjoyed the long runs the most. I was always running well within myself. I incorporated half marathons into the long runs and was cruising by people at the end of the races who were struggling having gone out too fast. A nice feeling.



    the marathon
    I started out 100 metres behind the last 3 hour pace balloon and let him go to nearly 300 metres by Rialto. Nice and controlled. I came through half way at 1:29:50 (6:52/mile). The first 5 miles were slower approx 6:54 and the latter miles of the fist half were moving a little quicker 6:50/mile.


    I was comfortable but also working hard, if that makes sense. I felt exactly like I thought I should have felt, racing a marathon but also in control.


    I got the first sense that things weren't right coming through halfway. I was working harder and I wasn't filled with joy at having to climb up the Crumlin Road. At the Halfway House I was working really hard and starting to slow. By 16 miles I was walking. Hit the wall hard.


    Squashed thoughts of quitting and started looking for a stride. Got into a rythm of 8:30/mile and then found 8:05/mile in the last few miles. Completed the second half in 1:48.


    Didn't wear a strap so no idea on what my heart rate was.

    Finish 3:18


    verdict
    My Hanson plan was dialled in to run a 3 hour marathon. I read the book cover to cover and followed the plan to the letter. According to the plan, with the training I had completed I was ready to run a 3 hour marathon but it only really set me up to run 16 miles at 3 hour pace. The plan left me nothing for the last ten miles.


    A mitigating factor, I 'might' have had a virus as my TE was slightly up on easy runs in the last couple of weeks compared to weeks previous but that is according to the Garmin and Im not sure how accurate it is. I didn't check my resting heart rate at all.


    As I said, for a marathon training plan it was very enjoyable. Would highly recommend in that regard.


    I won't use it again for some years. I feel I need the long run to be longer.

    Thanks for the report and hard luck considering you executed the plan. Sometimes it's not your day no matter what plan you use. I've been there! Shame to bin a plan you enjoyed so much though. You could modify it easily by adding 20m LRs, very easy 4 and steady 16. And managing the fatigue within the plan.


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  • Kissy Lips wrote: »
    That was my tenth marathon spread evenly enough from 2009. Although no marathon in 2017 or 2018.

    PB 3:04:08 in 2012 using the club plan.

    Marathons after that were all around 3:30 using no plan and just winging it to jog around for the craic.

    Sorry it didn’t work out. 2012 PB is irrelevant at this stage. What’s recent form been like - and how did you go about choosing target? Sounds like you executed plan methodically but if you blew up soon after half way it looks like the target was too ambitious.




  • Here's my plan review!

    As documented previously, I made a bunch of additions to the Hanson plan, mostly in the spirit of the book but with a few parkrun pacing efforts thrown in for fun :pac: :rolleyes:

    In the first half of the year I was doing kind of 5k-10k type training targeting a few races. I peaked at around 70 miles a week and ran a few PBs. June was a bit of an off month due to various bits of travel and personal life stuff getting in the way but still had some good milage. July was spent in Barcelona where I got into the habit of getting up in the morning before breakfast and running up the hills, around 18k feet of climbing in total. When I got back to Dublin at the end of July I launched into the last 12 weeks of the plan, however I did my club's track session instead of the speed sessions. The overall distance was the same (4.8k-5k), though it didn't have the same progression on repeat lengths. I didn't think of this as being particularly material overall and benefitted from running in a group etc.

    Once the strength sessions started I followed them per the plan. I was generally targeting 2:55 paces, though I dipped under at times. I had a few bad sessions, but I was balancing high milage, increased intensity and occasional hungover sessions :) so it's not surprising that they didn't all go perfectly well. I added a lot of miles to the plan, running 330 in September. I didn't do any races and the last hard parkrun was at the end of July (close to 18:30 or so).

    I really enjoyed the fast short long runs. In the past I usually took long runs pretty easily and treated them as time on feet exercises. The MP tempos were the most challenging part of the plan, they felt like they had the most at stake. Running them under cumulative fatigue was real - my heart rate typically got to where it ended up in mile 24-26 of the marathon itself. Once my milage started to fall in the last couple of weeks, my easy and session paces picked up which was a good sign.

    Here are my paces for the SOS runs for the last 7 weeks:

    Week|Strength|Tempo|Long
    2nd-8th September|6:26|6:50|7:13
    9th-15th September|6:23|6:37|-
    16th-22nd September|6:22|6:46|7:12
    23rd-29th September|6:26|6:31|-
    30th September - 6th October|6:19|6:33|7:04
    7th October - 13th October|6:24|6:43|-
    14th October - 20th October|6:17|6:42|-


    One of the main features of my running was consistency. Here's the 12 weeks - a bit of messing around happened in August but was unavoidable due to various bits of travel and didn't interfere with the sessions. September and October was pretty decent though. Unfortunately for me I seem to need high milage to run fast, and I get a lot of sharpness from running fast close to target races. I think I got the taper about right this time around.

    494259.jpeg

    I ended up running 2:55:27, with a HM PB in the second half. The plan clearly worked for me though arguably I had soft PBs. Speaking of soft PBs I also ran a 10 mile PB in training on one of the 9 mile MP sessions. The relentless repetition of the SOS runs brought me on a lot, though the next time I commit to a marathon and train for it properly I might do something with some more variety and actual races... however I'd come back to this plan and recommend it to runners who want to improve their marathon times.




  • Just comparing my miles covered in the plan to Singer and Kissy Lips . I managed to cover 91% of the prescribed miles in the 18 weeks . 835 out of 917 and ended up with 312. I hit all the S.O.S. sessions although never really dipped much below the suggested paces 652 tempo , 640 strength although I did have some 649 tempo and 635 strength repeats . Looking at Singers miles he covered 970 in 14 weeks . But Would it be fair to say Singer you ran a lot of your easy sessions at 849-908 paces but At a higher distance eg 10 miles .
    I guess what would be good to know for everyone in the group as a starting point what their average weekly mileage was from January to June to see what base we all had before starting the plan .My average weekly mileage for the first 6 months of year was 40 miles a week .
    Ps for myself what I would change for next year is higher and slower mileage on easy days .
    Mp tempos on the road and on a challenging loop
    Make my longer runs longer . My longest run was 18 miles and I feel I was missing endurance when the going got tough




  • Murph_D wrote: »
    Sorry it didn’t work out. 2012 PB is irrelevant at this stage. What’s recent form been like - and how did you go about choosing target? Sounds like you executed plan methodically but if you blew up soon after half way it looks like the target was too ambitious.

    Choosing a target was wanting to run 3 hours.

    All things considered now, the target was too ambitious but I wanted to give it my best shot and it might have worked.




  • Just comparing my miles covered in the plan to Singer and Kissy Lips . I managed to cover 91% of the prescribed miles in the 18 weeks . 835 out of 917 and ended up with 312. I hit all the S.O.S. sessions although never really dipped much below the suggested paces 652 tempo , 640 strength although I did have some 649 tempo and 635 strength repeats . Looking at Singers miles he covered 970 in 14 weeks . But Would it be fair to say Singer you ran a lot of your easy sessions at 849-908 paces but At a higher distance eg 10 miles .
    I guess what would be good to know for everyone in the group as a starting point what their average weekly mileage was from January to June to see what base we all had before starting the plan .My average weekly mileage for the first 6 months of year was 40 miles a week .
    Ps for myself what I would change for next year is higher and slower mileage on easy days .
    Mp tempos on the road and on a challenging loop
    Make my longer runs longer . My longest run was 18 miles and I feel I was missing endurance when the going got tough

    Average was in between 35 and 40 mpw with a couple of 50 mile weeks in late May. So lets say 37.5 average.


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  • I hardly ran for 2 years. Scraped 1k miles last year. Avg was 1 run a week for 3 years before that. Avg 30m a week for 2 months to start the 18wk hansons plan.

    About 90% of the plan completed including 2 full weeks missed with flu (proper flu). About 850m. Result 2:58:50 it was all I had. Peaked at the right time. I had to change the plan a bit after the flu.

    I think the main things about the plan get you fit - simple
    6 days week after week consistently
    MP miles, 10-15% of the whole plan banked

    The hard thing - balancing the cumulative fatigue. From about week 10 to 10 days out I felt wrecked but was fresh on the day. Race plan executed on fresh legs and tunnel vision for last 5 miles.

    It's not a plan for everyone but a book plan doesn't fit all. Singer = how to work it around your life and still squeeze the best quality from it. That may mean adding a 20m or 2 for some.

    As long as you dont stray too far from the method, keep the principles in tact you give yourself the best chance.




  • I'm looking at the faster sessions in Hansons and it seems to be either Strength or Speed.

    I was looking at this calculator for training zones and for the faster sessions he mentions these three ... Speed / Vo2max / LT

    Lactate Threshold (fast)
    Speed Workouts (faster - roughly 30s per mile faster)
    Vo2max Workouts (fastest - roughly 30s per mile faster still)

    Did anyone who did Hansons feel it was varied enough to train at just Strength and Speed?
    Or should LT and vo2max workouts be included?

    Thanks
    M




  • mathie wrote: »
    I'm looking at the faster sessions in Hansons and it seems to be either Strength or Speed.

    I was looking at this calculator for training zones and for the faster sessions he mentions these three ... Speed / Vo2max / LT

    Lactate Threshold (fast)
    Speed Workouts (faster - roughly 30s per mile faster)
    Vo2max Workouts (fastest - roughly 30s per mile faster still)

    Did anyone who did Hansons feel it was varied enough to train at just Strength and Speed?
    Or should LT and vo2max workouts be included?

    Thanks
    M

    Luke Humphrey's coaching is not limited to marathon, so that calculator will has uses/paces beyond what's necessary for the standard Hanson marathon plan (plus, as I believe Humphreys no longer works with the Hansons, there may be some deviations anyway).

    To answer your main question, yes, the SOS speed/strength/tempo/LR sessions offer plenty of variety, and there's plenty of evidence from people who have used the plan that it works out of the box. The idea is that it's marathon specific, and getting more specific the closer to the race date. I think you'll find it challenging enough without making it more difficult (and less specific!)

    Good luck.




  • mathie wrote: »
    I'm looking at the faster sessions in Hansons and it seems to be either Strength or Speed.

    I was looking at this calculator for training zones and for the faster sessions he mentions these three ... Speed / Vo2max / LT

    Lactate Threshold (fast)
    Speed Workouts (faster - roughly 30s per mile faster)
    Vo2max Workouts (fastest - roughly 30s per mile faster still)

    Did anyone who did Hansons feel it was varied enough to train at just Strength and Speed?
    Or should LT and vo2max workouts be included?

    Thanks
    M

    And one more thing - read the book!

    You won't get what you need by just looking at a spreadsheet of workouts.




  • Right folks, almost finished the book a lot of stuff resonates with me. I Was gonna jump on board with Hanson for Dublin this year but was struggling with niggles all year so just made things up as a I went along keeping the niggles in check.

    Going all in for a spring marathon with the advanced plan as I really think the volume of miles at or close to MP are exactly what I need.

    I read back the entire thread last night, some great stuff in it. Just wondering if it would be worthwhile to start a spring marathon thread or is it possible to change the tread title?

    Might bite the bullet and start a log to try and get some feedback also.




  • Perhaps a mod can change the title to "Hansons Method"?




  • Well, I finished the plan - or at least the SoS bits - last night. Will report back the first week of December. I've enjoyed the challenges and now I'm just curious to see if it works on the day for me. Feeling strong this last week. Had to try not to go too fast on the last Strength session, and kinda failed. No guarantee of success of course........




  • Itziger wrote: »
    Well, I finished the plan - or at least the SoS bits - last night. Will report back the first week of December. I've enjoyed the challenges and now I'm just curious to see if it works on the day for me. Feeling strong this last week. Had to try not to go too fast on the last Strength session, and kinda failed. No guarantee of success of course........

    Not quite finished yet. The race is one of the more important elements of the plan. ;)

    Best of luck.




  • Perhaps a mod can change the title to "Hansons Method"?

    Done




  • Finished the book and have drawn up a training calendar.

    Not sure if I’ll stick to not doing more than 16 miles. If I do go above I’ll bring up the easy miles, warm ups, rest day etc so an increase in LR distance will be a proportional percentage increase on weekly mileage in the spirit of the book.

    Did a pre plan week last week to test the waters and keep me ticking over for Waterford, happy enough.

    One adjustment I might make is some strides in one of the easy days.

    Started a LOG if anybody is interested, always good to get some feed back!


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  • I have a question about this plan, specifically around the speed sessions.

    I am targeting 3:10 in April and just about to start the 18 weeks next week. As far as I can figure from the charts in the book, the speed paces are different across the interval distances, but not logically (at least to me) so. From what I have calculated, a 3:10 marathon time translates to a 19:30 5k time, so going by that, these are my Speed paces (miles) across the different interval distances:

    400 600 800 1000 1200 1600

    Speed 6.20 6.16 6.20 6.14 6.16 6.20

    Am I calculating incorrectly ?




  • PaulieC wrote: »
    I have a question about this plan, specifically around the speed sessions.

    I am targeting 3:10 in April and just about to start the 18 weeks next week. As far as I can figure from the charts in the book, the speed paces are different across the interval distances, but not logically (at least to me) so. From what I have calculated, a 3:10 marathon time translates to a 19:30 5k time, so going by that, these are my Speed paces (miles) across the different interval distances:

    400 600 800 1000 1200 1600

    Speed 6.20 6.16 6.20 6.14 6.16 6.20

    Am I calculating incorrectly ?

    All speed sessions are based on 5k pace. So a 20min 5k = 1:36 for 400m for example. The differences there in your calculations are probably rounding errors.




  • Itziger wrote: »
    Well, I finished the plan - or at least the SoS bits - last night. Will report back the first week of December. I've enjoyed the challenges and now I'm just curious to see if it works on the day for me. Feeling strong this last week. Had to try not to go too fast on the last Strength session, and kinda failed. No guarantee of success of course........

    Thoughts?




  • Murph_D wrote: »
    Thoughts?

    Fair call. I should be working but here goes, I'll keep it brief.

    And the reason I'll keep it brief is cos I don't know if the plan works or not!! You might say, Man, you got a PB, course it works. True, but I was confident that 2.59 was not going to remain my PB for ever. I THINK that I could have got one doing my own 'old fashioned' plan similar to what I did for Cork 2017.

    Things I liked about the plan: The 2/3 sessions of substance means you're not bored. The weeks tick by and you can see progression. 3 weeks of this, then 3 weeks + 1 mile of it, then another 3 and so on. The Speed and Strength sessions, I liked.

    However, I may not be the ideal candidate for this plan as my weak point has been distance/endurance. I have never been able to convert my Half times to Full (not as most 'converters' suggest anyway.)

    Things I might tweak if trying again...... Longer W/U for the M paced sessions. As in 10 miles E + 10 miles @M. The only problem there is that a 20 miler mid-week is probably not on for lots of people. I know it's supposed to be all very scientific and all but I'd be tempted to cherry pick and mix in some Longer runs. You could take a modified week before or after to balance the workload.

    The jury's out in that I didn't feel strong in the last 10k. In fact I felt like I almost always do!!! But it did work in so far as I got a PB ......... (But was that the magic shoes??)




  • Thanks for the update Itziger, I saw your run on stava and was a little surprised to read that you felt the jury was out on the plan given you ran a pb, maybe the lesson is the last 10k is never easy regardless of the plan!

    Well I've had a mare of a start to the plan! Started with the 2 easy 6 milers last week but have since ended up on antibiotics and unable to run since Friday. Have been struggling for a while with a low level dose that's decided to level up.

    Today was supposed to be the first sos with a 12x400's. Thinking of jumping back into the plan next week which will give me 16 weeks. I have been doing a pre plan build up to get accustomed to the sessions having done the following since DCM-

    28th Oct-3rd Nov, post DCM: Off except 2 easy runs the following weekend

    4th-10th Nov: 4x800's + 4x200's and 15 miles treadmill (7:50 avg)

    11th- 17th Nov: 10 x 200m hill's, 4 mile tempo (6:35 avg), 11 miles easy.

    18th- 24th Nov: 8 x 400's, 5 mile treadmill tempo (6:44 avg), 12 miles steady LR pace (7:20 avg)

    25th Nov- 1st Dec: 8 x 600's, missed a couple of days with a dose.

    5th - 8th Dec: 2(2x800 + 2x 200's) and 5 mile tempo (6:42 avg). Relapse with dose!

    Easy running and cross training on days between the 'something of substance' runs and no complete rest days until I got sick (which wasn't clever).


    Any thoughts?




  • Itziger wrote: »
    The jury's out in that I didn't feel strong in the last 10k. In fact I felt like I almost always do!!! But it did work in so far as I got a PB ......... (But was that the magic shoes??)

    And what was your judgement on the shoes?

    My experience of the last 10k, when following the Hanson Plan, has not been one of particular strength but also not one of weakness. My feeling, good or bad, has been decided by what I have done in the previous 32k. I guess that's the same no matter what plan you have followed. The lack of "20 milers" has not been a hindrance in my experience.

    It is good that you gave the plan a go and got yourself a PB. More knowledge of what works and doesn't work for you. Now, Valencia 2020,,,,,, ;)




  • And what was your judgement on the shoes?

    My experience of the last 10k, when following the Hanson Plan, has not been one of particular strength but also not one of weakness. My feeling, good or bad, has been decided by what I have done in the previous 32k. I guess that's the same no matter what plan you have followed. The lack of "20 milers" has not been a hindrance in my experience.

    It is good that you gave the plan a go and got yourself a PB. More knowledge of what works and doesn't work for you. Now, Valencia 2020,,,,,, ;)

    Registered already!! They're selling out real fast. Half thinking of doing Cork in 2020.........

    As for the shoes. The jury's out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously. I need to see what they're like in a 10k or Half. I did think they made training runs seem easier - I did two with them.




  • Itziger wrote: »
    Fair call. I should be working but here goes, I'll keep it brief.

    And the reason I'll keep it brief is cos I don't know if the plan works or not!! You might say, Man, you got a PB, course it works. True, but I was confident that 2.59 was not going to remain my PB for ever. I THINK that I could have got one doing my own 'old fashioned' plan similar to what I did for Cork 2017.

    Things I liked about the plan: The 2/3 sessions of substance means you're not bored. The weeks tick by and you can see progression. 3 weeks of this, then 3 weeks + 1 mile of it, then another 3 and so on. The Speed and Strength sessions, I liked.

    However, I may not be the ideal candidate for this plan as my weak point has been distance/endurance. I have never been able to convert my Half times to Full (not as most 'converters' suggest anyway.)

    Things I might tweak if trying again...... Longer W/U for the M paced sessions. As in 10 miles E + 10 miles @M. The only problem there is that a 20 miler mid-week is probably not on for lots of people. I know it's supposed to be all very scientific and all but I'd be tempted to cherry pick and mix in some Longer runs. You could take a modified week before or after to balance the workload.

    The jury's out in that I didn't feel strong in the last 10k. In fact I felt like I almost always do!!! But it did work in so far as I got a PB ......... (But was that the magic shoes??)

    Interesting. I'd seen your splits on Strava so knew you'd struggled from mile 20 (although you were strong enough to pick up nicely in the final mile and make the PB at least!)

    You did first 19 miles at something like 3:53 pace. Was that the target? Or was it just a bit ambitious, perhaps contributing to the much slower miles 20-25? You were cagy enough about the target, but I got the impression you were training for 2:55. Might that difference be enough to explain the endurance issue, somewhat mitigated by the 'magic shoes'?




  • Murph_D wrote: »
    Interesting. I'd seen your splits on Strava so knew you'd struggled from mile 20 (although you were strong enough to pick up nicely in the final mile and make the PB at least!)

    You did first 19 miles at something like 3:53 pace. Was that the target? Or was it just a bit ambitious, perhaps contributing to the much slower miles 20-25? You were cagy enough about the target, but I got the impression you were training for 2:55. Might that difference be enough to explain the endurance issue, somewhat mitigated by the 'magic shoes'?

    Hi Murph, the target was 2,54 and I went through Halfway in 1.27.20 I believe. A standard, old fashioned, classic fade, buddy. Couldn't maintain the pace. Maybe I could have hydrated and/or fueled better. I dunno. These fooking marathons are still a bit of a mystery to me after 16 of 'em.

    I made a big effort to up the pace again with 2k to go but only managed to bring it back down a bit. Never got it back to 4.07/8 pace.


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  • sideswipe wrote: »
    Thanks for the update Itziger, I saw your run on stava and was a little surprised to read that you felt the jury was out on the plan given you ran a pb, maybe the lesson is the last 10k is never easy regardless of the plan!

    Well I've had a mare of a start to the plan! Started with the 2 easy 6 milers last week but have since ended up on antibiotics and unable to run since Friday. Have been struggling for a while with a low level dose that's decided to level up.

    Today was supposed to be the first sos with a 12x400's. Thinking of jumping back into the plan next week which will give me 16 weeks. I have been doing a pre plan build up to get accustomed to the sessions having done the following since DCM-

    28th Oct-3rd Nov, post DCM: Off except 2 easy runs the following weekend

    4th-10th Nov: 4x800's + 4x200's and 15 miles treadmill (7:50 avg)

    11th- 17th Nov: 10 x 200m hill's, 4 mile tempo (6:35 avg), 11 miles easy.

    18th- 24th Nov: 8 x 400's, 5 mile treadmill tempo (6:44 avg), 12 miles steady LR pace (7:20 avg)

    25th Nov- 1st Dec: 8 x 600's, missed a couple of days with a dose.

    5th - 8th Dec: 2(2x800 + 2x 200's) and 5 mile tempo (6:42 avg). Relapse with dose!

    Easy running and cross training on days between the 'something of substance' runs and no complete rest days until I got sick (which wasn't clever).


    Any thoughts?
    Honestly I dont think the speed session are the deal breaker. I missed a few but hit most of the MP. Take that with a pinch of salt though. I liked most that the speedwork was early in the plan. I was happy to be done with them and quite enjoyed the longer strength sessions. I did feel that while the weeks went by and the speed reps progressed from 400s to horrible 1600s that I could replace any session with 5k worth of quality intervals and be happy with the session. Perhaps the specific progression of the speed intervals would count more for 5-10k.

    By pinch of salt I've only used the plan once, am a newbie to the sub3 gang and have never trained for 5 or 10ks (apart from running them off a swim/bike)


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