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Hansons Method

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9 WicksSmith


    Hi all. Week 1 finished off yesterday for the Advanced HMP. Actually week 2 as week 1 was all easy running and I felt I had enough of a base to go straight into Week 2.

    Went well, found the speed session the easiest strangely enough. The Tempo was tough but I didn't pace it very well, went far to fast the last mile of 3. Something I'll need to work on.

    For my easy runs I've decided to forget about pace and just stay in zone 2. Actually one of the easy runs last week was spot on average pace wise with the slow easy aerobic A run paces given in the book so all good there.

    A question though that's bothering me a bit. For the Long run pace, the 'moderate pace' long run not the easy pace long run. What should my pace be?

    I'm going for a 1:38 half. When I look at table 3.5 it says 8:29/mile but in the column beside that it gives the tempo pace as 7:49/mile. A 1:38 half is 7:29/mile?? So if I go HMP+40 seconds like I've seen a few mention here then should my moderate long run pace not be then 8:09/mile? The table is really confusing.

    Still using the digital version as I actually ordered the physical copy of the Marathon plan rather than the Half.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Sandwell


    Judging by the Luke Humphrey calculator 1:38 would be 7:29 for the tempos, as you say, and the steady long runs would be done at 8:20-8:30 pace. It's MP + 40-50 secs, not HMP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9 WicksSmith


    Thanks Sandwell. I'm thinking at this stage I'm probably better off using that calculator for my paces.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Hi Folks,

    I've been following this thread with interest for the last few weeks as I have decided, five years after buying the book, to take the plunge and train for Boston marathon using this plan. Background: for the last two years, I have been running 6/7 days a week, topping out at around 115k for the heaviest marathon training week, so I have no worries about the number of days training in the plan. My PB is 3:15 from a number of year back, but more recently, I did 3:16 in DCM 22 to qualify for Boston and paced 3:30 in DCM 23. I am being perhaps a tad ambitious in setting a 3:10 target for myself. Looking at the plan, I guess the thing that causes most anxiety is the Thursday tempos at MP, with maybe the long runs being next on the list.

    If you hae one tip for someone starting in to this plan, what would it be ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Exciting stuff.

    My one tip would be to zone in on the importance of Wednesday.

    Get into the mindset that the week begins on Thursdays and ends on Tuesdays. You'll smash each of those tempo sessions if you rest and recover well on Wed.

    Get to bed early on both Tue and Wed.

    I found the Tue sessions pretty tough going, because they were at the end of a tough week, but I always felt fresh and good to go on Thursdays.

    The very best of luck with it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭TheRef


    Avoid my mistakes 😂

    I didn't practice my fueling near enough in training as the longest run isn't "that long". I could get away with 2 gels for the 16m when I should have gone with 4-5 just to get my body used to taking them again. I don't think I took any "during" Thursdays tempo run.

    Be careful of the taper. 10 days was not enough for me.

    Follow the paces listed in the book as they are described - particularly Easy Aerobic A & B.

    Even though you may be be quite fatigued, I guess especially with Boston, don't avoid the hills.

    Also agree with Lazare - my approach to sleep has completely changed since I started Hanson.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    This. The plan starts on a Thursday after three days rest for a reason. It's amazing how many people don't notice the significance of that.

    Hi P (we met at the expo) - if you can pace 3:30 in Dublin with the usual buffer you can race it far faster than 3:16, as I suspect you know. For you (like everyone), it will be all about computing the right training paces based off an honest appraisal of recent racing history. Get that right and the Hanson approach will pay off - as will any reasonably scientific approach, to be honest.

    I don't think any well trained runner should fear a marathon paced session, and certainly not a long 'fast easy' run - expect it to be tough, yes, in the context of everything else you are doing, but anything under LT effort should always feel achievable if you've got the paces right. If you're training even a second per mile too fast, it's a different story of course.

    Good luck!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Starts on Thursday after three day's rest? According to the book, there's a speed/strength session on Tuesday and never less than 10 easy kms on Mondays.

    Hi Murph!! Pacing wise, I was a last minute jump up from 3:40 to 3:30 so it wasn't as comfortable as I would have liked :-)

    Regarding paces, I think I have them correct, based on the tables in the book (paces in KM):




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Your strength paces are off. Should be around 4:20.


    I targeted 3:10 too, here's my own paces.

    Easy and recovery I went by HR and were generally slower than yours, averaging about 5:40 for easy, and 6:00 for recovery. 5:08 seems too hot I think.

    Long was 4:55 - 5:00

    Tempo - 4:30

    Strength - 4:20

    Speed - 4:00 - 4:05 (I went closer to 10k pace with these rather than 5k)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Cool, thanks for pointing that out. I must have read from the wrong line in the table. I would tend to agree also on the easy and very easy paces. 5:08 seems a bit fast to be easy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Cool, thanks for pointing that out. I must have read from the wrong line in the table. I would tend to agree also on the easy and very easy paces. 5:08 seems a bit fast to be easy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    My own version of the book starts on the Thursday of week 1. Maybe other or later versions have changed that (and probably some of the online only versions). But I always thought the Thursday start was a deliberate prod towards thinking of the plan starting every week on the Thurs after the rest day, a point I was chatting to @Lazare about just the other day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 747 ✭✭✭MisterJinx


    Interesting. I have been wondering how I can fit a bit more mileage into my week generally. One of the options is to up my easy pace a tad and therefore get a k or so more in for each run as I am maxed out for time and I'm going to dedicate a day to go to the gym from the new year.

    I had always though I took my easy days on the slow side of easy and I had the scope to up it a bit. Similar to you I would be somewhere around 5.40 for easy in Z2. I was thinking, based on HR that I could probably go to 5.15/20 looking at the stats but since you are faster than me and you are still working off 5.40 it's made me think a bit.

    The calculators all tend to give quite a wide range, strava for example says I can be just sub 5 min/k for easy....... If I keep to effort like I do then there is the wriggle room..



  • Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭overthebridge


    Just on the rest day. I sometimes move that day around to suit work/homelife in any given week. I find as long as I stick to at least one day gap between SOS days and run the easy days easy then it's not a bother. I usually do the speed SOS on Mondays and my Long run on Saturdays, this means I can pick Wed or Thur for the Tempo SOS and it still gives loads of flexibility around the 3 easy days. My rest day then can be slotted in to suit the kids schedules each week.

    Another thing I do is start the plan a week early and plan to do one of the later weeks twice. This gives me great flexibility around injuries/niggles/sickness or it might allow me a few easy days either side of a race that I have incorporated.

    It's a fantastic plan though. I've had 2 good goes off it so far and I've Pb'd on both blocks of training. I started another block last week aiming for an early April marathon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭dirkmeister


    I used Hanson for my first attempt at a marathon (Waterford) in June.

    I thought training had gone well but in reality a newborn had put enough of a dent in the plan.

    I made a complete hames of my pacing in the hot weather, cramped up on mile 18 and hobbled home in 4hr 05mins.

    I decided to take a few weeks off to recharge the batteries during the summer.

    I got some good consistency going at the end of August and decided to give the Waterford AC half marathon a shot with a target of somewhere around 1hr 43mins based on a 10 mile race I finished in 1hr 18mins in September.

    I used week 6-10 of the beginner programme and finished off with the taper week.

    The main thing I tried to focus on was keeping my long runs slow. As a complete novice, the penny finally dropped that I was going too fast on my long runs.

    It felt great arriving at the start line feeling fresh and strong.

    I managed to get home in 1hr 38mins. Absolutely delighted with that.

    The plan did require a lot of discipline, lots of early morning starts which free up the evenings for baby stuff.

    I’ve entered the Edinburgh marathon next May and hopefully I can go into a decent 3hr something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 979 ✭✭✭pc11


    Does Hanson say anything about weight training? I'm having a think about my plans for next year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    From the book:

    There are many options for adding strength training to a running program. Our basic philosophy involves three main ideas: (1) It should complement the running regimen; strength work should never replace running. (2) It should improve weaknesses, muscle imbalances, and running form; in essence, strength training should help to improve running performance. (3) It should be short and simple.

    Humphrey, Luke. Hansons Marathon Method: Run Your Fastest Marathon the Hansons Way (p. 213). VeloPress. Kindle Edition.

    The book doesn't prescribe any particular strength training regime, although there are specific dynamic warmup and stretching exercises.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Little update:

    I am just starting week 6 of 18, yesterday was 20k long run which averaged at 4:53 (targeting 4:55) and it felt great. HR average was 154 and no issues at all.

    I've done 3x10k tempos and they were all pretty successful, couple of seconds under target for each one. I did feel quite tired goi g into last Thursday session and absolutely wrecked on Friday for easy 11k but Saturday and Sunday were fine.

    Up to the 1200 reps tomorrow in the speed session


    All in all, I am happy so far, kinda waiting for the wheels to fall off, but at the moment I feel fit and strong, hope it continues



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Sounds like a good execution so far. 👍



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Fair play, how did the 4x 1200s go for you?

    I'm a week ahead, did the ladder session earlier today. Was great craic haha.

    I missed that session the last time so was great to get it done.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    They were OK. 4:04 average pace, felt like puking at the end. Looking forward to a day off



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭thehairygrape


    Lurking around here for a while. Working out a plan for an August/September marathon and late May half.

    On the Advanced program marathon plan. Apologies if these have been asked and answered before.

    Easy run A vs Easy run B. I presume an easy run is anywhere within that range? The plan doesn’t specify which one is which.

    Looking a long way ahead, the taper.

    Just wondering the experiences of runners here on that. The 10 miles tempo with 10 days to go in particular. I suppose I’m not used to that amount of running in the last two weeks. Now, that could be a good thing.

    Many thanks for all the input from everyone. I’ll put up my progress as I go along.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Periodic update:

    Training for Boston, goal time is 3:10 with a B goal of under 3:15. PB is 3:15:00 from Dublin 2015

    Into Week 12 of 18. Finished Tuesday speed sessions two weeks ago, hitting pace targets for 3x1600. Started strength sessions last week with 6 X 1600 at 4:20 (was closer to 4:16 avg) and today was 4 X 2500, also avg at 4:15. The long runs have been great, the last two 25/27k coming in around 4:45 avg, including a few laps of Booterstown/Mount Merrion Avenues Sunday just gone for hill practice). Hardest sessions continue to be the Thursday MP tempos. The pace and energy seem to be OK, but the tiredness really kicks in and calves/hamstrings have been very tight for these runs the for last four weeks, to the extent that I had to stop to stretch calves on a few occasions. Seeing physio tomorrow for a loosen out (also had one 4 weeks ago and have some scheduled for before the big day).

    Overall, I would say it's going well. The major tiredness is starting to ease a bit, or maybe I am just used to my legs being mashed all the time.

    I am still a touch anxious about not doing a "long" run before the end. I might stretch the last 27k run to 30 just to ease that anxiety, but I don't want to deviate from the plan too much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Looking for some advice and reassurance :-)

    So, four weeks out today and I have only one scheduled "long" run left, which is next Sunday. I am still feeling a bit of range anxiety, particularly as I had a little tendon issue last weekend and missed out on two easy and one strength session.

    Couple of questions:

    I missed last week's strength session, which was the 2 X 5k. This week is 3 X 3.2k, which I did a couple of weeks ago - should I replace tomorrow's 3.3.2k with a 2x 5k ?

    Also, I am thinking of extending the long run this weekend out to 30k, anyone have any strong opinions on why I should not do this ? It's purely for mental benefit. Might also do a longer easy run next Sunday too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Sandwell


    Regards the strength session, it doesn't matter. Do whichever one most appeals to you.

    As for extending the runs, you should just trust the plan. If you're going to do so I'd say extend the easy long run rather than the steady one. Sixteen miles at that effort is more than enough and of you're managing niggles as it is then it doesn't make sense to push your luck.



  • Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭MrMacPhisto


    You missed some training because of a tendon issue. Do you think it would be sensible to do extra training to make up for this??

    The plan has you skirting the edges of red lines. The tendon issue is probably a sign of this, so listen to the body and trust the plan. My opinion would be to do less rather than more at this point. So as printed, 3x3200 and 27k or so LR.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    That makes absolute sense, but I don't think the problem is too bad. Saw physio last Tuesday and she said it was fine, just a bit of stress caused probably by doing a couple of the Thursday sessions on predominantly downhill routes. I was able to do last week's Thursday session but did it about 10s per k slower and did 16/18 on Saturday and Sunday with no real reaction.

    I think my real issue is probably lack of trust in the plan and the thought of hitting mile 20 on the day and running out of gas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭MrMacPhisto


    I assume you have ran a few marathons before?

    Trust the plan. The first time I did the plan, the 20 mile mark came and went with me accelerating from that point onwards ;) Of course you will be tired but there will be gas if you have trained and ran the race sensibly. If you follow the plan and run out of gas at 20 miles, then I suggest you have probably ran the first 25kms of the race too fast.

    I can't emphasise enough, trust the plan :D



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Yes, plenty of them but this is the first with this plan. Logically I know the plan works, but irrationally I am still sceptical. Maybe my one time running boston was not the best time to change plans, but maybe it was the best time. I'll know for sure this time four weeks



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  • Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭MrMacPhisto


    You'll be fine. Lucky you, doing Boston. Maybe hold off the sprint finish until after Heartbreak Hill :D

    Having done plenty of marathons and I assume plenty of longer "long runs" in your previous training you know how the body feels at 20 miles and beyond. The body doesn't forget this training so that will be no issue. Maybe mentally you will just have to wait until you get there.

    I have never felt fully tapered or prepared to race until the very moment I toed the line at my marathons. So don't worry too much about fatigue and mental doubts during the taper either. You just gotta make sure you make the line, so don't overdo or overthink things.

    Best of luck in Boston!

    Post edited by MrMacPhisto on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭Duanington


    You chose the plan for a reason, that logical reason still exists and it sounds like you're still onboard with it.

    In my experience, people who deviate from this particular plan tend to struggle a little on race day and then blame the plan that they didn't stick to !

    I wouldn't go over on the steady long run, that's a tough, tough run at the end of a tough week, as someone else has pointed out, these weeks have you right on the edge for a sustained period of time, there's nothing to be gained from extending right into the red. You can take great confidence from hitting those sessions week after week, we tend to obsess too much about hitting magical\mystical numbers on the long run, its amazing really when you think about it.

    I think someone mentioned it on this thread before but if your focus is on the length of the long run then you're possibly missing the point of the structure of the plan, not only do you not need 30k, its counter productive given the nature of that structure


    Stick to it, trust your training



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    I've been thinking about it and I think the reason for the anxiety is possibly because I don't feel as tired as I think I should or thought I would. The first 10-12 weeks I felt constantly tired and that felt like the way it was supposed to with this plan and the focus on cumulative fatigue. However, the past couple of weeks I feel a lot less tired. However, with a 3x2m last night and a 16k tempo tomorrow and 27k steady on Sunday, I will revisit and see if I still feel like this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭TheRef


    I've only done Hanson once, and that was on my third marathon (last year). Looking back, regardless of what I think of the long run tapping out at 27k, I'd be of the mind that you've followed the plan so far and you shouldn't start messing with it 4 weeks out.

    The only advice I would offer at this stage is see the plan out but be careful of the 10 day taper. I read loads that suggested my legs would feel fine on the day, but they didn't. I think that's ultimately what got me, not the lack of distance in my long runs. Hopefully it won't be an issue for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Echoing the others' comments - no need to pimp the plan. If anything it's about protecting the niggle you've identified, close to race day.

    The long runs are plenty long enough in my experience. They certainly did not contribute to any failure on my part to hit marathon goals. Getting the paces right for all the various types of runs - including the long runs - is a far more more important factor.

    Good luck!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Regarding paces, I am pretty crap at those. I tend to bank pace, so my tempo runs, which were supposed to be at 4:30 were pretty uniformly 4:27, the 4:55 long runs were between 4:45 and 4:50 and the strength runs were 4:15 instead of 4:20.

    Of those, the hardest runs I found were the tempos



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    The last full week before the "taper" starts went off without a hitch. Easy Monday, strength Tuesday (3 x 3.2k, 4:15 pace), some physio Wednesday, tempo Thursday (16k, 4:28 pace), easy Friday, easy Saturday with some returning niggles and 28k long run on Sunday (4:42 with last 5k closer to MP).

    Was pretty tired on Saturday, but chilled out all day and pretty ready for Sunday. That run was comparatively easy, I kept having to pull back and even at that I was over 10 seconds per km too fast. Icing the ankle after every run and back on anti inflammatories for a couple of days to try to resolve the ankle muscle issue, but feeling good overall. I am starting to think I can do this and that thought has me more worried than ever :-). Taper madness here we come, this time 3 weeks I'll be at the start line, I can't wait.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Boston is a tough course, and one of the things about it is the deceptively easy downhill start, gentle drop for six miles as far as I remember it. So it's easy to get carried away - super important to have a conservative start on that course. A brilliant race and experience, enjoy the taper and the pre-race.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Lazare


    You seem like you've put in a really cracking block. You also seem to have the all important confidence and belief.

    You'll smash it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    last 16k tempo before boston done today. I really hope the next ten days sees an amazing recovery 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    that's a hard no from me on the hansons method. Waited and waited for the legs to come good during the taper but they just felt dead the whole time. I knew from the first km today that it was going to be a struggle and it was. Legs had nothing from the start and got worse from there on. Trained for a 3:10, finished 3:37. Luckily it was a great day and the experience was fantastic, but HMM will be not considered again for future events.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭TheRef


    That was my exact experience as well. Legs never recovered and I knew on the start line I wasn't in great shape. However, I managed to maintain the pace I trained for until about 32km, but knew I was on borrowed time from very early on.

    Did you manage to get into the pace you trained for and faded or could you just not get up to speed?

    What about the heat that seemed to be an issue - that play a part?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Lazare


    Gutted to read that. Really thought you were going to smash it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Sandwell


    Sorry to hear that. You'd clearly put in the work and it's frustrating not to get the reward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    looking back over the splits, I had two KMs that were on PMP and they were both in the first 5k. After 3k I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere near the goal so resigned myself to that and decided to just enjoy the run, but legs felt so tired I didn't even enjoy that. I did, however, enjoy the occasion, it was amazing from the time we got here. The heat was a possible factor but mainly the issue was the legs.

    We live to fight another day. With a different plan 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,512 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Hmm, it sounds remarkably like my own Boston experience in 2016 which was similar weather wise. I’d used a P&D approach, and in retrospect had overtrained. Sorry it didn’t go well.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    That sucks. Do ye think it was the taper not being easy enough that your legs just didn't recover fully or was it the overall plan? At least your fitness should have improved by doing this plan so for your next race you should be in a better position. So, long term it should still be a positive even if it screwed you in the short term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    It's hard to know to be honest. The last time I felt fresh and strong was the last long run. Felt great that day like I could run all day but since that my legs have been just sore and heavy and tired. The last week of taper was a real chore, easy runs felt hard. From here and other forums, I was kind of expecting that, but then also expecting the seemingly mythical bounce back 2-3 days before, but that never materialised.
    Funny thing was, I was enjoying the training. Felt good for most of it, including the tiredness. I'm sure the only thing damaged here is a bruised ego. Looking forward to getting back to it, after a wee break of course



  • Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭MrMacPhisto


    Sorry to hear that Paulie.

    As I said before, the taper on the Hanson Plan is short and not very refreshing. I have never got to the line thinking "I'm fresh". I normally reduce the last 10 mile tempo to a 10k tempo as I feel I would be better off with a little less fatigue and more recovery than any potential benefit of the few extra km.

    Before completely blaming the taper and the plan, I think you should just bear in mind the conditions. Of all the people I followed on the day (from elites to 5hr runners), and reports that I have read about subsqeuently, not one had a good experience in terms of goal pace or negative splits etc. 20 degree heat and direct overhead sunshine is definitely not something I have experienced during my running in Ireland in the last 3 months. I would say I have ran 3 times without a base layer and gloves (2 of the times were races, and I still wore the gloves and a buff :D). If you trained here, I can safely assume you were not acclimatised to such conditions as you experienced in Boston.

    You alone can decide if it is for you or not. But you have serious training banked, it's just a pity the race didn't work out. If I were you, I'd look for a half marathon within the next 4-6 weeks to see if you can bank a performance that you have earned.

    Kudos for grinding it out on the day, the race looked fantastic on tv.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    I was perhaps a tad hasty in my initial post race assessment 😂. There were, of course, mitigating circumstances, weather being one of them. However, the weather doesn't explain the lethargic feel of my legs in the first 3k. If the wheels fell off at the halfway point, then maybe. There was the travel, excessive walking on Saturday and Sunday and even before the start I had clocked up almost 10k steps.

    I'll take stock and see what happens. I have got the major bug now so going to plan for Chicago in 2025. I enjoyed the HMM training sessions so might jump back in when the time comes. It's definitely easier to understand than the Daniels formula. Also might look at going down the paid coaching road, a number in the club are having significant success with that.



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