School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 9:56am #1

So the non plan seems to be to sacrifice the health of teachers. Basically social distancing rules outside will be ignored inside the schools.
In terms of kids and students not in terms of staffrooms.
Teachers will keep the 2 metre rule vis a via each other.
Obviously kids health will be risked too.
I appreciate there is no easy solution.
But this ain't it .

km79 · 13-06-2020 10:04am

Bobtheman wrote: »

So the non plan seems to be to sacrifice the health of teachers. Basically social distancing rules outside will be ignored inside the schools.
In terms of kids and students not in terms of staffrooms.
Teachers will keep the 2 metre rule vis a via each other.
Obviously kids health will be risked too.
I appreciate there is no easy solution.
But this ain't it .

It’s an absolute pass the buck plan from mchugh to the next minister
He has been absolutely terrible throughout the crisis.
Wonder who we will be linked with next .

Apart from the absurdity of having to spend our summer social distancing and then basically been told to forget about it in small, densely populated indoor WORK spaces I noted 2 other things
1. I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?
2. I am sure the parents of immune compromised kids and even those with asthma are none too happy either .

But sure we can teach them in the evenings under “local arrangements “ decided by school principals .
The unions have a LONG summer ahead

is_that_so · 13-06-2020 10:12am

km79 wrote: »

It’s an absolute pass the buck plan from mchugh to the next minister
He has been absolutely terrible throughout the crisis.
Wonder who we will be linked with next .

Apart from the absurdity of having to spend our summer social distancing and then basically been told to forget about it in small, densely populated indoor WORK spaces I noted 2 other things
1. I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?
2. I am sure the parents of immune compromised kids and even those with asthma are none too happy either .

But sure we can teach them in the evenings under “local arrangements “ decided by school principals .
The unions have a LONG summer ahead

Yeah, he's been a bit all over the place. It doesn't help when the Dept he "runs" is like a headless chicken anyway. He'll be gone in a few weeks and a new minister is not going to help an awful lot. 3/10 for both.

rainbowtrout · 13-06-2020 11:23am

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 11:36am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

I agree to an extent. I agree full reopening us the best solution all round but I don't have confidence in the department providing additional measures for immunosuppressed students and staff. I also want to see concrete specifics on additional health and hygiene measures. If they are needed in supermarkets they're needed in schools.

km79 · 13-06-2020 12:12pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

I agree to an extent. My frustration lies in the fact that on one hand the govt are saying it is not safe to get a haircut, go to a restaurant, allow kids to play sport etc without social distancing and on the other hand they are saying it will be grand in small, densely packed classrooms.
It comes down to one thing and one thing only.
Money.
They have not and will not spend it on education. It has not been and will not ever be a priority in this country.
Makes me laugh when they mention a lack of teachers as a reason they can not go ahead with splitting classes

mirrorwall14 · 13-06-2020 12:21pm

I’m so torn on this. On the one hand I’m a parent and I want my child back at school and like every other parent my childcare is planned around the school. I’m sick of teaching online. I want to be back in school with my students teaching and learning properly and not some farce of blended learning

However I also cannot agree with the ridiculous scenario that would mean we would be the only work place in the country where the rules don’t apply? What makes us immune that we don’t need PPE or social distancing? I can’t go to the hairdressers without social distancing and PPE but I can get up close and personal with 30 students at a time....

Rosita · 13-06-2020 12:35pm

km79 wrote: »

I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?

/quote]

I this alone shows that it's not a plan but an aspirational opening move. A cynic might wonder if it's deliberately being done so that the unions will be seen to be objecting and that the inevitable alterations will be seen to be teachers over-reacting and messing up the grand plan.

Rosita · 13-06-2020 12:42pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The virus is pretty much gone from the community. /quote]

There's absolutely no way of knowing that without an extensive testing regime in place. Numbers are low but why wouldn't they be after three months lockdown. But that's a long way from saying it's gone away.

At the same time I do have some sympathy for the idea that we should go back to normal and let people look out for themselves. In fact but for the ICU bed problem I'd say the government would do the same.

But the idea that there can be a different safety regime in one workplace (a school) from another down the road (a shop or bank) is not tenable. Either all safety protocols are dropped everywhere (which will not happen) or we have a problem in schools.

km79 · 13-06-2020 12:44pm

Rosita wrote: »

km79 wrote: »

I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?

/quote]

I this alone shows that it's not a plan but an aspirational opening move. A cynic might wonder if it's deliberately being done so that the unions will be seen to be objecting and that the inevitable alterations will be seen to be teachers over-reacting and messing up the grand plan.

This is 100% part of the agenda . Teachers are always complaining etc etc
Deflecting from the fact they are underfunding education for decades now and the chickens have well and truly come home to roost in already overcrowded classrooms

killbillvol2 · 13-06-2020 12:45pm

It should be obvious to everyone by now that you can't put 'McHugh' and 'plan' in the same sentence.

He has stood out throughout this crisis as spectacularly out of his depth. It doesn't help that the DES seems to be the worst run government department regardless of the minister.

TheValeyard · 13-06-2020 12:45pm

So a school with 1000 students can open. But not a football ground, concert, of social occasions with similar number. I think there is a bit of a disconnect here.

km79 · 13-06-2020 12:49pm

Their plan is working
Exhibit A
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058086386/3

Exhibit B
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058069647/292/#post113721539

Apparently “one or two “ teachers in every school will have a problem with no social distancing in their WORKPLACE leading to strike action

Why is our workplace so unique and immune to the virus .
My wife can’t return to an office nearly the size of many classrooms as 6 people work in it at the moment .........

I can only imagine the frothing that is going on over in After Hours.
I’m sure we will have visitors over here soon anyways

Enjoy the remaining 10 weeks of holidays

Mardy Bum · 13-06-2020 2:22pm

Leave should be granted for immunocompromised staff and any staff living with an immunocompromised person. If the DES can manage this it, it will be a start.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 2:26pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Leave should be granted for immunocompromised staff and any staff living with an immunocompromised person. If the DES can manage this it, it will be a start.

I'd like to see an education provision plan for immunocompromised students.

Mrsmum · 13-06-2020 3:00pm

It's all about trying to strike the right balance. More and more the general consensus seems to be that blended education is short-changing our kids, educationally and socially and that going with the precaution of part time schooling is causing or is going to cause as many problems as the virus for the children. Also kids are supposed to be low risk themselves so you could say they are 'suffering' or being denied their needs, not on their own behalf but on behalf of other more vulnerable people. So from that point of view, all kids back in Sept is a great thing. Of course it is also natural for teachers to worry about themselves. Nobody want to be put in a dangerous working environment. Hopefully their unions are working on their behalf in that regard. Although I personally wonder how one could teach through a mask for one thing. Some things just don't seem possible at school either like full on social distance. We need to be finding out how it's working in other countries and learn from them. And it is the very smallest things that are so vital too, hand sanitation and cough etiquette. Finally even with the covid precautions being limited in schools, teachers should not resent that other work places may be safer because it is by keeping the whole community free from covid that keeps teachers safest of all. If the community outside of school is covid free, so will the school be.

deiseindublin · 13-06-2020 3:05pm

IF SD is still in place in September, surely the HSA won't allow schools to open and just go against guidelines? Why would/should any employee agree to that?

shesty · 13-06-2020 4:20pm

Tbh, my workplace is "construction" but the reality is that the lads have to go into people's homes to do their jobs.They might visit multiple houses in a day.So even though construction was given the go-ahead weeks ago, we haven't got a solution for that either.Schools are not actually uniquely being singled out as places where social distancing is being disregarded.They happen to be the most high-profile, I would guess.I would also point out to teachers that kids will be mixing and bringing everything home, so it is not just the teachers that are exposed.It is the children's families too.I have no doubt my SI will bring home every bug that passes her by come Sept, and pass it on to all of us too.

I would be curious to know what teachers propose.Blended learning, so double-jobbing for yourselves??No school at all, and a continuation of online teaching?Because I see no way out of this to be honest.There is no visible solution that doesn't leave both teachers and students at a disadvantage.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:34pm

shesty wrote: »

Tbh, my workplace is "construction" but the reality is that the lads have to go into people's homes to do their jobs.They might visit multiple houses in a day.So even though construction was given the go-ahead weeks ago, we haven't got a solution for that either.Schools are not actually uniquely being singled out as places where social distancing is being disregarded.They happen to be the most high-profile, I would guess.I would also point out to teachers that kids will be mixing and bringing everything home, so it is not just the teachers that are exposed.It is the children's families too.I have no doubt my SI will bring home every bug that passes her by come Sept, and pass it on to all of us too.

I would be curious to know what teachers propose.Blended learning, so double-jobbing for yourselves??No school at all, and a continuation of online teaching?Because I see no way out of this to be honest.There is no visible solution that doesn't leave both teachers and students at a disadvantage.

You ain't comparing like with like . How many homes would you be in the average week. How many people do you see. I might see 150 people in a day. A day.
Students = people.
While nobody wants to continue with online education - they better come up with something better than this.
If in every other work place HSE guidelines in place you can't just sarcrifice teacher's.
We are used to society dumping it's **** on us but this is a bridge too far

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:37pm

shesty wrote: »

Tbh, my workplace is "construction" but the reality is that the lads have to go into people's homes to do their jobs.They might visit multiple houses in a day.So even though construction was given the go-ahead weeks ago, we haven't got a solution for that either.Schools are not actually uniquely being singled out as places where social distancing is being disregarded.They happen to be the most high-profile, I would guess.I would also point out to teachers that kids will be mixing and bringing everything home, so it is not just the teachers that are exposed.It is the children's families too.I have no doubt my SI will bring home every bug that passes her by come Sept, and pass it on to all of us too.

I would be curious to know what teachers propose.Blended learning, so double-jobbing for yourselves??No school at all, and a continuation of online teaching?Because I see no way out of this to be honest.There is no visible solution that doesn't leave both teachers and students at a disadvantage.

Teachers propose ? There are senior civil servants on 150k a year..that's their job to come up with something more credible. At least proper medical support for teachers. But given the flip flops and various u turns of the department I would not be that hopeful but it's THEIR job not teachers or random joe blogs off the street .

shesty · 13-06-2020 4:37pm

I am not attacking you, I am simply asking the question.Society isn't actually out to get teachers.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:42pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

If you want to sarcrifice your health that's your decision. Best of luck with that. I don't think cancelling the LC was for money reasons..in this country all you got to utter in a loud ( preferably female voice ) is " What about the children? Will anybody think of them?' and everyone panics. It would have been better if a decision on the leaving cert was delayed until late May. A final decision. There was no rush for it. About a hundred thousand people won't be back in work by January 2020. Most permanent job losses. But we spend countless front pages talking about the LC ? Give me a break.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:46pm

Just to add Id love a society that took the needs of children seriously. Instead of giving 20 million to Connaught rugby club spend more than a million on a pilot scheme for free books in primary ( deis schools only ).
I'd love to see proper investment in childcare.
Thus I'm sick of feigned angst among the media about LC kids .

Snow Garden · 13-06-2020 5:33pm

The Covid crisis hasn't shown teachers in a good light. Some have gone the extra mile but many have moaned and exposed their sense of entitlement.

McHugh comes across as a terrible minister. Hopefully the new one is somewhat capable.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 5:54pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

The Covid crisis hasn't shown teachers in a good light. Some have gone the extra mile but many have moaned and exposed their sense of entitlement.

McHugh comes across as a terrible minister. Hopefully the new one is somewhat capable.

Shock horror. One boards poster with an axe to grind lifts his leg ?! Get me the smelling salts. We came out pretty well. Considering the lack of leadership and flip flops on the leaving. Agreed to what was agreeable. Unprecedented but as Cicero says if you want appreciation get a dog. Don't expect it from the media . Don't expect it from parents such as yourself who usually can't handle their 2 kids .

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 6:00pm

shesty wrote: »

I am not attacking you, I am simply asking the question.Society isn't actually out to get teachers.

You talking to me? It was a valid question.Yours. I'm just pointing out it's up to senior civil servants to figure this out I'm an English graduate. Hardly qualified. I am entitled to ask my employer to protect my health. Because I doubt my school will raise my kids if I die of covid.
That being said I'm willing to be flexible and take some risk but not " ah sure we will be grand" approach.

teachinggal123 · 13-06-2020 6:08pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Shock horror. One boards poster with an axe to grind lifts his leg ?! Get me the smelling salts. We came out pretty well. Considering the lack of leadership and flip flops on the leaving. Agreed to what was agreeable. Unprecedented but as Cicero says if you want appreciation get a dog. Don't expect it from the media . Don't expect it from parents such as yourself who usually can't handle their 2 kids .

We came out of this really badly. Mixed at best. “Pretty well” .... naaaaah.

Step out of your bubble and smell the roses.

Rosita · 13-06-2020 6:18pm

teachinggal123 wrote: »

We came out of this really badly. Mixed at best. “Pretty well” .... naaaaah.

Just wondering how you measure that? Heard Brendan O'Connor on the radio today saying that teachers did come out of this well and cared far more than many people had thought. Of course when you mention a name like his you invite the knocking of the personality and by extension the opinion. But I'd certainly think of him as a 'consensus' man. If he's saying it it's probably the way the wind is blowing.

Treppen · 13-06-2020 6:34pm

teachinggal123 wrote: »

We came out of this really badly. Mixed at best. “Pretty well” .... naaaaah.

Step out of your bubble and smell the roses.

If you think teachers EVER come out as being portrayed as performing "pretty well" by any media organisation then that's a definite bubble you're in.

To go from school teaching to being expected to distance teach teenagers and primary school kids with
ZERO Training
ZERO IT support
ZERO pedagogical rational or support
...and have to look after your own family.

Just goes to show many members of the public will always want their pound of flesh from teachers.

Look at the 1 day delay when unions wanted assurances on department indemnification , people in the media and public sector bashers banging the drum about how they were the ruination of the country and killing the kids fragile uneducated minds, demanding primary schools be open weeks ago!

We weren't working from home. We were at home trying to make things work.

Now the new word 'blended learning' is thrown about like post-it-pads at Junior Cycle inservice... Nevertheless teachers will deliver it "pretty well" ... whatever it is.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 7:00pm

It's totally irrelevant what the public thinks because they are largely a sheepish group. A lot done more to do ? Remember that. The persecution of umarried mother's was all the rage up to about 25 years ago. The public thought not having access to condoms was bang on up the 1990s.
Now they can't even say a woman menstruates without getting tied up in knots.
So when the public tells me I'm doing a good job ...I get very very worried.
The media hate teachers . Some parents- those whom we told some home truths mostly.
Best bet - don't listen to the media at all. Don't follow the crowd. Pied pipers

emmaro · 13-06-2020 7:02pm

Every single decision taken to do with education during this pandemic has been decided by the media.

It was the media who kept pushing the cancellation of the LC.....so it was cancelled.

Now the media is pushing that parents need kids to go back to school fully (even if that means ignoring health advice).

Yesterday's "plan" from McHugh was basically like "if we have to social distance your kid will hardly ever be in school...but if we ignore public health guidelines they'll be out of your hair fulltime!!". They want the public and media to get on board with schools being the only place where social distancing doesn't apply. No one cares about the safety of teachers anyway.

It would be a lot more difficult to do more online learning or blended learning...but if that's the safest option it should be what happens.

shesty · 13-06-2020 7:57pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

You talking to me? It was a valid question.Yours. I'm just pointing out it's up to senior civil servants to figure this out I'm an English graduate. Hardly qualified. I am entitled to ask my employer to protect my health. Because I doubt my school will raise my kids if I die of covid.
That being said I'm willing to be flexible and take some risk but not " ah sure we will be grand" approach.

I was talking to you, yes.My point was coming from the angle that most teachers will say the unions need to fight this, but surely in order to do so, the unions will(should) seek some bit of feedback from their members on the ground for ideas.Which is why I was asking, what, if any, are the ideas.Senior civil servants have come up with ideas...and they published them yesterday...and they were rubbish. Feedback from the actual users of a system always informs better solutions, rather than hypothetical ideas from behind some office mandarin's desk.

As regards my other post about construction workers, there are 2 sides to the comparison, yes.The other side to my story is that the lads in question are on temporary layoff until we come up with a solution as to how exactly they might get into houses to do the work.I am not one of them.I'm an engineer.But we will look to include them in suggestions for solutions, because at the end of the day, they are the ones being put in that situation.

rainbowtrout · 13-06-2020 8:43pm

Rosita wrote: »

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The virus is pretty much gone from the community. /quote]

There's absolutely no way of knowing that without an extensive testing regime in place. Numbers are low but why wouldn't they be after three months lockdown. But that's a long way from saying it's gone away.

....

But the idea that there can be a different safety regime in one workplace (a school) from another down the road (a shop or bank) is not tenable. Either all safety protocols are dropped everywhere (which will not happen) or we have a problem in schools.

Even without an extensive testing regime, there would be higher numbers reporting to their doctors with symptoms.

All that was published yesterday was that it's proposed that all students go back to school in September. PPE etc wasn't mentioned, that doesn't mean it won't be used. It's 2.5 months away, far too early to call exactly what will be needed.

TheValeyard wrote: »

So a school with 1000 students can open. But not a football ground, concert, of social occasions with similar number. I think there is a bit of a disconnect here.

Actually it's crowds of over 5000 are banned for the forseeable future so according to the last phase of the guidelines which is due to come in mid August, 1000 is fine. Presumably this will happen some time in July now.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Leave should be granted for immunocompromised staff and any staff living with an immunocompromised person. If the DES can manage this it, it will be a start.

I doubt it will happen because the virus could be around indefinitely. They are not going to give indefinite leave.

Bobtheman wrote: »

If you want to sarcrifice your health that's your decision. Best of luck with that. I don't think cancelling the LC was for money reasons..in this country all you got to utter in a loud ( preferably female voice ) is " What about the children? Will anybody think of them?' and everyone panics. It would have been better if a decision on the leaving cert was delayed until late May. A final decision. There was no rush for it. About a hundred thousand people won't be back in work by January 2020. Most permanent job losses. But we spend countless front pages talking about the LC ? Give me a break.

I don't want to sacrifice my health, nor do I believe I will be by returning to work.

The SEC/DES have saved about €50 million by not running the LC/JC this year. There were plenty of venues available outside of schools that could have accommodated students, there was plenty of discussion around it on this forum. It could have run in June, not to mind August. I see plenty of my students out in the local park in large groups over the last week, I presume they are not unique

Not sure why you have to have a dig at women regarding the Leaving Cert cancellation. Every media outlet was calling for it. And most of the people around the table that makes these decisions were men.

More than 100k people will be out of work in January 2021 if schools don't open as many parents won't be able to go back to work as they won't have childcare. This would probably disproportionately affect women as they tend to be the primary carers.

Bobtheman wrote: »

Shock horror. One boards poster with an axe to grind lifts his leg ?! Get me the smelling salts. We came out pretty well. Considering the lack of leadership and flip flops on the leaving. Agreed to what was agreeable. Unprecedented but as Cicero says if you want appreciation get a dog. Don't expect it from the media . Don't expect it from parents such as yourself who usually can't handle their 2 kids .

What is with all the agression towards everyone you reply to? What makes you think the poster 'can't handle their two kids'? No need for the nastiness and aggression in every reply. :rolleyes:

Bobtheman wrote: »

It's totally irrelevant what the public thinks because they are largely a sheepish group. A lot done more to do ? Remember that. The persecution of umarried mother's was all the rage up to about 25 years ago. The public thought not having access to condoms was bang on up the 1990s.
Now they can't even say a woman menstruates without getting tied up in knots.
So when the public tells me I'm doing a good job ...I get very very worried.
The media hate teachers . Some parents- those whom we told some home truths mostly.
Best bet - don't listen to the media at all. Don't follow the crowd. Pied pipers

I would say the Church had a large say in the persecution of unmarried mothers and the lack of access to contraception.

emmaro wrote: »

Every single decision taken to do with education during this pandemic has been decided by the media.

It was the media who kept pushing the cancellation of the LC.....so it was cancelled.

Now the media is pushing that parents need kids to go back to school fully (even if that means ignoring health advice).

Yesterday's "plan" from McHugh was basically like "if we have to social distance your kid will hardly ever be in school...but if we ignore public health guidelines they'll be out of your hair fulltime!!". They want the public and media to get on board with schools being the only place where social distancing doesn't apply. No one cares about the safety of teachers anyway.

It would be a lot more difficult to do more online learning or blended learning...but if that's the safest option it should be what happens.

Unfortunately he's correct.

What are the alternatives?

Keep the two metre distance, have classes split into two or three depending on the size of the group. Lots of people have up to 30 students in core subjects.

What happens then? Teach group A for one half of the week and group B for the other half? Only get half the course done over the year?

Teach group A half the week and expect group B to follow along at home while your class is broadcast live on line, and reverse for the second half of the week?

Teach one half the group live and then go home and spend your evening uploading all of that material for all those that weren't in school that day?

All of these options are realistically what would happen if the 2m distance is kept. They were all debated here at length a few weeks ago and I don't remember anyone being in favour.

It's all very well people posting on here going ... what about guidelines?... what about immunocompromised people? .... what about ... what about... what about.... but the reality is that schools and education will not function properly long term if social distancing is kept in place.

We are fortunate in Ireland and generally in Europe (up to now) that we generally don't have endemic fatal diseases, something which is a norm in other countries. We don't live with malaria, dengue fever, MERS, SARS, ebola, plague, cholera, rabies, and many of the infectious diseases we can't contract here have vaccines or we can treat fairly effectively with medication. It's a new departure for this country that we will have to live with this virus for at least the medium term. It requires a completely new way of thinking about infectious disease and illness.

byhookorbycrook · 13-06-2020 8:47pm

If we had a plan , we could work towards it . I’m a primary SEN teacher and want nothing more than to be back in class with “my” children . I’m also immuno-compromised .
Teachers want to be back in school , we know it will have to be before a vaccine is available, but is it too much to ask that this return is as safe as possible?
Can we have funding for PPE? Extra staff to help with hand washing / cleaning ? Money for all the extra hand.san etc?

rainbowtrout · 13-06-2020 8:54pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If we had a plan , we could work towards it . I’m a primary SEN teacher and want nothing more than to be back in class with “my” children . I’m also immuno-compromised .
Teachers want to be back in school , we know it will have to be before a vaccine is available, but is it too much to ask that this return is as safe as possible?
Can we have funding for PPE? Extra staff to help with hand washing / cleaning ? Money for all the extra hand.san etc?

I think the most practical solution for PPE in a classroom setting is the see through plastic visors from the point of view of protection. Teacher wears one and student wears one. Student is responsible for their own mask. I'd imagine in primary schools this would require a bit more supervision on the part of the teacher to get them into that habit. But I'd also guess that they are generally more compliant than the sulky 14 year old who will probably have theirs broken by the end of the day.

Given how mobile students are within a school, it seems like a far more practical solution than having screens between desks that would have to be cleaned and inevitably will be drawn on, have chewing gum stuck to them etc in a secondary school.

Close contact sports are back on the table in the final phase, so a lot of this might be a little moot if the same kids who are wearing masks in school and not allowed touch each other are going hell for leather on the football pitch after school. Also (more so in secondary school than primary), it's impossible to police students who head down town for lunch and gather in large groups.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 8:57pm

shesty wrote: »

I was talking to you, yes.My point was coming from the angle that most teachers will say the unions need to fight this, but surely in order to do so, the unions will(should) seek some bit of feedback from their members on the ground for ideas.Which is why I was asking, what, if any, are the ideas.Senior civil servants have come up with ideas...and they published them yesterday...and they were rubbish. Feedback from the actual users of a system always informs better solutions, rather than hypothetical ideas from behind some office mandarin's desk.

As regards my other post about construction workers, there are 2 sides to the comparison, yes.The other side to my story is that the lads in question are on temporary layoff until we come up with a solution as to how exactly they might get into houses to do the work.I am not one of them.I'm an engineer.But we will look to include them in suggestions for solutions, because at the end of the day, they are the ones being put in that situation.

Very well put. Personally I would go back if I could get a regular covid test and class sizes reduced. Extensive cleaning of the room. Plus promise of heavy investment and training in IT. Bar the cleaning I can't see any of the rest being definite

Jizique · 13-06-2020 9:02pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’m so torn on this. On the one hand I’m a parent and I want my child back at school and like every other parent my childcare is planned around the school. I’m sick of teaching online. I want to be back in school with my students teaching and learning properly and not some farce of blended learning

However I also cannot agree with the ridiculous scenario that would mean we would be the only work place in the country where the rules don’t apply? What makes us immune that we don’t need PPE or social distancing? I can’t go to the hairdressers without social distancing and PPE but I can get up close and personal with 30 students at a time....

You will be able to go to the hairdresser in two weeks; the schools won’t reopen till September. If you think of the progress made in the last 10 weeks, we should be in a decent spot in another ten.
If we are prepared to allow people to fly on hols to Spain and Portugal, we must be prepared to get the schools back up and running.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 9:05pm

Rainbow troat - I think you would agree to anything they propose for September. You are entitled to make your own decision. As for being aggressive- I have a low tolerance for moronic opinions. Though at times I might not understand the perspectives of some posters and have apologised
As for the cost of the LC you could indeed be right.
Regarding the female voice i think the line comes from some movie and was uttered by an actress- will anybody think of the children etc
I'm willing to be flexible If the department stops being petty. They haven't given a **** about teacher wellbeing in decades so i would want some assurance about sick leave and proper COVID-19 testing before I'd agree but I'm not sure you and I,despite our pretensions ,will be asked in a formal vote.
Probably be a deal between unions and the state.

Rosita · 13-06-2020 9:06pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's a new departure for this country that we will have to live with this virus for at least the medium term. It requires a completely new way of thinking about infectious disease and illness.

.

Exactly. The idea that everything can be just 'as you were' in education or anything else might be fanciful. The Dept of Education might have to revise their idea that the "educational experience" can be delivered and assessed only in the traditional way where you attend physically for 28 hours per week in a classroom. (Okay the real problem and biggest fear for the government - the babysitting of kids, is another matter.)

Bottom line is, social distancing is either necessary or it's not. They can't gave it both ways.

Rosita · 13-06-2020 9:08pm

Jizique wrote: »

If we are prepared to allow people to fly on hols to Spain and Portugal, we must be prepared to get the schools back up and running.

The model under which they get up and running is the real issue, not whether schools open or not.

Jizique · 13-06-2020 9:10pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

You talking to me? It was a valid question.Yours. I'm just pointing out it's up to senior civil servants to figure this out I'm an English graduate. Hardly qualified. I am entitled to ask my employer to protect my health. Because I doubt my school will raise my kids if I die of covid.
That being said I'm willing to be flexible and take some risk but not " ah sure we will be grand" approach.

You will not die of Covid; you don’t work in a meat plant, aren’t resident in a care home, aren’t over 85, and hopefully don’t have underlying conditions.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 9:14pm

Jizique wrote: »

You will not die of Covid; you don’t work in a meat plant, aren’t resident in a care home, aren’t over 85, and hopefully don’t have underlying conditions.

Simplistic nonsense. A man in our area died recently 42. No underlying conditions. But in general terms you are probably right -hopefully.
I think Mchughs "plan" is just an opening gambit. He knows it has no credibility but he is just gauging reaction. Putting ball in union court.

Jizique · 13-06-2020 9:21pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Simplistic nonsense. A man in our area died recently 42. No underlying conditions. But in general terms you are probably right -hopefully.
I think Mchughs "plan" is just an opening gambit. He knows it has no credibility but he is just gauging reaction. Putting ball in union court.

Some people aged 42 die every year. And it is always sad.
Is it 95% of deaths are over 85?
A lot more openness and information from the HSE would help to put people’s minds at ease.

antgal23 · 13-06-2020 9:23pm

Pass the parcel plan from govt

Nobody showing any leadership here, I read doc as I'm a teacher and I advise the VP

No practical info there unless you count 'wash your hands , get a Covid plan, keep 2 metres'

'Oh but we know you can't keep 2 m but don't worry! '

Don't forget, what about July Provision? ASD classes getting the go ahead. I teach 6 boys and I have three SNAs - that's 10 people in a medium sized room - how will that happen and respect the 2 m rule?

Answer, it can't unless we reduce numbers

This back to school carry on is now politicised - govt don't want to be seen to be drawing lines - most parents want to send kids back regardless of the 2 m rule, govt want schools to make unilateral decisions

oyvey · 13-06-2020 9:24pm

shesty wrote: »

I am not attacking you, I am simply asking the question.Society isn't actually out to get teachers.

Not out to get them, but definitely sick to the back teeth of them.

antgal23 · 13-06-2020 9:27pm

oyvey wrote: »

Not out to get them, but definitely sick to the back teeth of them.

Do you know all teachers then mate?

oyvey · 13-06-2020 9:29pm

antgal23 wrote: »

Do you know all teachers then mate?

Yeah. Every single one of them.

antgal23 · 13-06-2020 9:30pm

oyvey wrote: »

Yeah. Every single one of them.

Gold star for you son. Keep up the good work.

byhookorbycrook · 13-06-2020 9:31pm

Jizique wrote: »

You will not die of Covid; you don’t work in a meat plant, aren’t resident in a care home, aren’t over 85, and hopefully don’t have underlying conditions.

Are you happy to guarantee that ? And it’s not always about death , it’s about the residual side effects. Are you happy to expose grandchildren to grand parents ? For peers to hug medically vulnerable family members ?

Jizique · 13-06-2020 9:38pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are you happy to guarantee that ? And it’s not always about death , it’s about the residual side effects. Are you happy to expose grandchildren to grand parents ? For peers to hug medically vulnerable family members ?

There are no guarantees in life unfortunately;
We do the same surely when kids have a cold, we limit their contact with grandparents. Many do fairly reckless things in life, whether smoking, drinking or eating to excess, speeding - we need to be sensible, minimise risk to as realistic an extent as possible, but recognise that we can not eliminate risk.

13-06-2020 9:40pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are you happy to guarantee that ? And it’s not always about death , it’s about the residual side effects. Are you happy to expose grandchildren to grand parents ? For peers to hug medically vulnerable family members ?

Far too much fear around this! An awful lot of us have been working throughout Covid! We have been exposed more than teachers will be as we worked when there were far more cases of Covid in the community. This nonsense of exposing grandchildren to grandparents. There is almost NO Covid in the community. Be thankful about that and be positive! You cannot live your life in fear of dying of Covid - you could die of something else in the meantime! Live your life.

I am 60 year of age and working in the civil service, I have worked throughout this. I am not in fear of getting Covid because i am healthy, no underlying health conditions, slim, walk 10km a day, eat healthily. If I get it I get it..... I hope I will deal with it and recover. I would love to have Covid antibodies. In the meantime I have hiked, done yoga, cycled, swam in the sea and walked miles and miles.........oh yeah and I worked!

The media have an awful lot to answer for, they created a culture of fear which this is more dangerous than Covid itself as it cripples people and stops people living their lives. Get back to school teachers and teach the kids. Stop worrying about PPE. When you're back 1 week you will forget completely about Covid as you will be busy, involved and enjoying your job again.

We hand sanitise at work and socially distance as much as possible, but its not always possible. Canteen is closed and we bring our own coffee and lunch. Nobody where I work mentions Covid anymore as we are too busy and fulfilled in our work.

School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

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