School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 9:56am #1

So the non plan seems to be to sacrifice the health of teachers. Basically social distancing rules outside will be ignored inside the schools.
In terms of kids and students not in terms of staffrooms.
Teachers will keep the 2 metre rule vis a via each other.
Obviously kids health will be risked too.
I appreciate there is no easy solution.
But this ain't it .

km79 · 13-06-2020 10:04am

Bobtheman wrote: »

So the non plan seems to be to sacrifice the health of teachers. Basically social distancing rules outside will be ignored inside the schools.
In terms of kids and students not in terms of staffrooms.
Teachers will keep the 2 metre rule vis a via each other.
Obviously kids health will be risked too.
I appreciate there is no easy solution.
But this ain't it .

It’s an absolute pass the buck plan from mchugh to the next minister
He has been absolutely terrible throughout the crisis.
Wonder who we will be linked with next .

Apart from the absurdity of having to spend our summer social distancing and then basically been told to forget about it in small, densely populated indoor WORK spaces I noted 2 other things
1. I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?
2. I am sure the parents of immune compromised kids and even those with asthma are none too happy either .

But sure we can teach them in the evenings under “local arrangements “ decided by school principals .
The unions have a LONG summer ahead

is_that_so · 13-06-2020 10:12am

km79 wrote: »

It’s an absolute pass the buck plan from mchugh to the next minister
He has been absolutely terrible throughout the crisis.
Wonder who we will be linked with next .

Apart from the absurdity of having to spend our summer social distancing and then basically been told to forget about it in small, densely populated indoor WORK spaces I noted 2 other things
1. I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?
2. I am sure the parents of immune compromised kids and even those with asthma are none too happy either .

But sure we can teach them in the evenings under “local arrangements “ decided by school principals .
The unions have a LONG summer ahead

Yeah, he's been a bit all over the place. It doesn't help when the Dept he "runs" is like a headless chicken anyway. He'll be gone in a few weeks and a new minister is not going to help an awful lot. 3/10 for both.

rainbowtrout · 13-06-2020 11:23am

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 11:36am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

I agree to an extent. I agree full reopening us the best solution all round but I don't have confidence in the department providing additional measures for immunosuppressed students and staff. I also want to see concrete specifics on additional health and hygiene measures. If they are needed in supermarkets they're needed in schools.

km79 · 13-06-2020 12:12pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

I agree to an extent. My frustration lies in the fact that on one hand the govt are saying it is not safe to get a haircut, go to a restaurant, allow kids to play sport etc without social distancing and on the other hand they are saying it will be grand in small, densely packed classrooms.
It comes down to one thing and one thing only.
Money.
They have not and will not spend it on education. It has not been and will not ever be a priority in this country.
Makes me laugh when they mention a lack of teachers as a reason they can not go ahead with splitting classes

mirrorwall14 · 13-06-2020 12:21pm

I’m so torn on this. On the one hand I’m a parent and I want my child back at school and like every other parent my childcare is planned around the school. I’m sick of teaching online. I want to be back in school with my students teaching and learning properly and not some farce of blended learning

However I also cannot agree with the ridiculous scenario that would mean we would be the only work place in the country where the rules don’t apply? What makes us immune that we don’t need PPE or social distancing? I can’t go to the hairdressers without social distancing and PPE but I can get up close and personal with 30 students at a time....

Rosita · 13-06-2020 12:35pm

km79 wrote: »

I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?

/quote]

I this alone shows that it's not a plan but an aspirational opening move. A cynic might wonder if it's deliberately being done so that the unions will be seen to be objecting and that the inevitable alterations will be seen to be teachers over-reacting and messing up the grand plan.

Rosita · 13-06-2020 12:42pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The virus is pretty much gone from the community. /quote]

There's absolutely no way of knowing that without an extensive testing regime in place. Numbers are low but why wouldn't they be after three months lockdown. But that's a long way from saying it's gone away.

At the same time I do have some sympathy for the idea that we should go back to normal and let people look out for themselves. In fact but for the ICU bed problem I'd say the government would do the same.

But the idea that there can be a different safety regime in one workplace (a school) from another down the road (a shop or bank) is not tenable. Either all safety protocols are dropped everywhere (which will not happen) or we have a problem in schools.

km79 · 13-06-2020 12:44pm

Rosita wrote: »

km79 wrote: »

I do not see any mention whatsoever of the provision of PPE gear ?

/quote]

I this alone shows that it's not a plan but an aspirational opening move. A cynic might wonder if it's deliberately being done so that the unions will be seen to be objecting and that the inevitable alterations will be seen to be teachers over-reacting and messing up the grand plan.

This is 100% part of the agenda . Teachers are always complaining etc etc
Deflecting from the fact they are underfunding education for decades now and the chickens have well and truly come home to roost in already overcrowded classrooms

killbillvol2 · 13-06-2020 12:45pm

It should be obvious to everyone by now that you can't put 'McHugh' and 'plan' in the same sentence.

He has stood out throughout this crisis as spectacularly out of his depth. It doesn't help that the DES seems to be the worst run government department regardless of the minister.

TheValeyard · 13-06-2020 12:45pm

So a school with 1000 students can open. But not a football ground, concert, of social occasions with similar number. I think there is a bit of a disconnect here.

km79 · 13-06-2020 12:49pm

Their plan is working
Exhibit A
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058086386/3

Exhibit B
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058069647/292/#post113721539

Apparently “one or two “ teachers in every school will have a problem with no social distancing in their WORKPLACE leading to strike action

Why is our workplace so unique and immune to the virus .
My wife can’t return to an office nearly the size of many classrooms as 6 people work in it at the moment .........

I can only imagine the frothing that is going on over in After Hours.
I’m sure we will have visitors over here soon anyways

Enjoy the remaining 10 weeks of holidays

Mardy Bum · 13-06-2020 2:22pm

Leave should be granted for immunocompromised staff and any staff living with an immunocompromised person. If the DES can manage this it, it will be a start.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 2:26pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Leave should be granted for immunocompromised staff and any staff living with an immunocompromised person. If the DES can manage this it, it will be a start.

I'd like to see an education provision plan for immunocompromised students.

Mrsmum · 13-06-2020 3:00pm

It's all about trying to strike the right balance. More and more the general consensus seems to be that blended education is short-changing our kids, educationally and socially and that going with the precaution of part time schooling is causing or is going to cause as many problems as the virus for the children. Also kids are supposed to be low risk themselves so you could say they are 'suffering' or being denied their needs, not on their own behalf but on behalf of other more vulnerable people. So from that point of view, all kids back in Sept is a great thing. Of course it is also natural for teachers to worry about themselves. Nobody want to be put in a dangerous working environment. Hopefully their unions are working on their behalf in that regard. Although I personally wonder how one could teach through a mask for one thing. Some things just don't seem possible at school either like full on social distance. We need to be finding out how it's working in other countries and learn from them. And it is the very smallest things that are so vital too, hand sanitation and cough etiquette. Finally even with the covid precautions being limited in schools, teachers should not resent that other work places may be safer because it is by keeping the whole community free from covid that keeps teachers safest of all. If the community outside of school is covid free, so will the school be.

deiseindublin · 13-06-2020 3:05pm

IF SD is still in place in September, surely the HSA won't allow schools to open and just go against guidelines? Why would/should any employee agree to that?

shesty · 13-06-2020 4:20pm

Tbh, my workplace is "construction" but the reality is that the lads have to go into people's homes to do their jobs.They might visit multiple houses in a day.So even though construction was given the go-ahead weeks ago, we haven't got a solution for that either.Schools are not actually uniquely being singled out as places where social distancing is being disregarded.They happen to be the most high-profile, I would guess.I would also point out to teachers that kids will be mixing and bringing everything home, so it is not just the teachers that are exposed.It is the children's families too.I have no doubt my SI will bring home every bug that passes her by come Sept, and pass it on to all of us too.

I would be curious to know what teachers propose.Blended learning, so double-jobbing for yourselves??No school at all, and a continuation of online teaching?Because I see no way out of this to be honest.There is no visible solution that doesn't leave both teachers and students at a disadvantage.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:34pm

shesty wrote: »

Tbh, my workplace is "construction" but the reality is that the lads have to go into people's homes to do their jobs.They might visit multiple houses in a day.So even though construction was given the go-ahead weeks ago, we haven't got a solution for that either.Schools are not actually uniquely being singled out as places where social distancing is being disregarded.They happen to be the most high-profile, I would guess.I would also point out to teachers that kids will be mixing and bringing everything home, so it is not just the teachers that are exposed.It is the children's families too.I have no doubt my SI will bring home every bug that passes her by come Sept, and pass it on to all of us too.

I would be curious to know what teachers propose.Blended learning, so double-jobbing for yourselves??No school at all, and a continuation of online teaching?Because I see no way out of this to be honest.There is no visible solution that doesn't leave both teachers and students at a disadvantage.

You ain't comparing like with like . How many homes would you be in the average week. How many people do you see. I might see 150 people in a day. A day.
Students = people.
While nobody wants to continue with online education - they better come up with something better than this.
If in every other work place HSE guidelines in place you can't just sarcrifice teacher's.
We are used to society dumping it's **** on us but this is a bridge too far

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:37pm

shesty wrote: »

Tbh, my workplace is "construction" but the reality is that the lads have to go into people's homes to do their jobs.They might visit multiple houses in a day.So even though construction was given the go-ahead weeks ago, we haven't got a solution for that either.Schools are not actually uniquely being singled out as places where social distancing is being disregarded.They happen to be the most high-profile, I would guess.I would also point out to teachers that kids will be mixing and bringing everything home, so it is not just the teachers that are exposed.It is the children's families too.I have no doubt my SI will bring home every bug that passes her by come Sept, and pass it on to all of us too.

I would be curious to know what teachers propose.Blended learning, so double-jobbing for yourselves??No school at all, and a continuation of online teaching?Because I see no way out of this to be honest.There is no visible solution that doesn't leave both teachers and students at a disadvantage.

Teachers propose ? There are senior civil servants on 150k a year..that's their job to come up with something more credible. At least proper medical support for teachers. But given the flip flops and various u turns of the department I would not be that hopeful but it's THEIR job not teachers or random joe blogs off the street .

shesty · 13-06-2020 4:37pm

I am not attacking you, I am simply asking the question.Society isn't actually out to get teachers.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:42pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have a problem with it. Life has to go on. The virus might never have a vaccine. It's something we have to live with. Life has to go back to normal at some stage. The virus is pretty much gone from the community. If it's not in the community you won't be getting it in school.

Read an article about primary schools/pre-schools in France last week who have gone back earlier than us and it was awfully sad to see kids sitting in the school yard in individual chalked out boxes. Might as well have been a prison. That's no way to live.

It was always going to come to this. It's not possible to teach students on a part time basis and still get the course for the year done.

All it does prove is that the Leaving Cert didn't need to be cancelled, that was clearly a money saving decision.

If you want to sarcrifice your health that's your decision. Best of luck with that. I don't think cancelling the LC was for money reasons..in this country all you got to utter in a loud ( preferably female voice ) is " What about the children? Will anybody think of them?' and everyone panics. It would have been better if a decision on the leaving cert was delayed until late May. A final decision. There was no rush for it. About a hundred thousand people won't be back in work by January 2020. Most permanent job losses. But we spend countless front pages talking about the LC ? Give me a break.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 4:46pm

Just to add Id love a society that took the needs of children seriously. Instead of giving 20 million to Connaught rugby club spend more than a million on a pilot scheme for free books in primary ( deis schools only ).
I'd love to see proper investment in childcare.
Thus I'm sick of feigned angst among the media about LC kids .

Snow Garden · 13-06-2020 5:33pm

The Covid crisis hasn't shown teachers in a good light. Some have gone the extra mile but many have moaned and exposed their sense of entitlement.

McHugh comes across as a terrible minister. Hopefully the new one is somewhat capable.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 5:54pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

The Covid crisis hasn't shown teachers in a good light. Some have gone the extra mile but many have moaned and exposed their sense of entitlement.

McHugh comes across as a terrible minister. Hopefully the new one is somewhat capable.

Shock horror. One boards poster with an axe to grind lifts his leg ?! Get me the smelling salts. We came out pretty well. Considering the lack of leadership and flip flops on the leaving. Agreed to what was agreeable. Unprecedented but as Cicero says if you want appreciation get a dog. Don't expect it from the media . Don't expect it from parents such as yourself who usually can't handle their 2 kids .

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 6:00pm

shesty wrote: »

I am not attacking you, I am simply asking the question.Society isn't actually out to get teachers.

You talking to me? It was a valid question.Yours. I'm just pointing out it's up to senior civil servants to figure this out I'm an English graduate. Hardly qualified. I am entitled to ask my employer to protect my health. Because I doubt my school will raise my kids if I die of covid.
That being said I'm willing to be flexible and take some risk but not " ah sure we will be grand" approach.

teachinggal123 · 13-06-2020 6:08pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Shock horror. One boards poster with an axe to grind lifts his leg ?! Get me the smelling salts. We came out pretty well. Considering the lack of leadership and flip flops on the leaving. Agreed to what was agreeable. Unprecedented but as Cicero says if you want appreciation get a dog. Don't expect it from the media . Don't expect it from parents such as yourself who usually can't handle their 2 kids .

We came out of this really badly. Mixed at best. “Pretty well” .... naaaaah.

Step out of your bubble and smell the roses.

Rosita · 13-06-2020 6:18pm

teachinggal123 wrote: »

We came out of this really badly. Mixed at best. “Pretty well” .... naaaaah.

Just wondering how you measure that? Heard Brendan O'Connor on the radio today saying that teachers did come out of this well and cared far more than many people had thought. Of course when you mention a name like his you invite the knocking of the personality and by extension the opinion. But I'd certainly think of him as a 'consensus' man. If he's saying it it's probably the way the wind is blowing.

Treppen · 13-06-2020 6:34pm

teachinggal123 wrote: »

We came out of this really badly. Mixed at best. “Pretty well” .... naaaaah.

Step out of your bubble and smell the roses.

If you think teachers EVER come out as being portrayed as performing "pretty well" by any media organisation then that's a definite bubble you're in.

To go from school teaching to being expected to distance teach teenagers and primary school kids with
ZERO Training
ZERO IT support
ZERO pedagogical rational or support
...and have to look after your own family.

Just goes to show many members of the public will always want their pound of flesh from teachers.

Look at the 1 day delay when unions wanted assurances on department indemnification , people in the media and public sector bashers banging the drum about how they were the ruination of the country and killing the kids fragile uneducated minds, demanding primary schools be open weeks ago!

We weren't working from home. We were at home trying to make things work.

Now the new word 'blended learning' is thrown about like post-it-pads at Junior Cycle inservice... Nevertheless teachers will deliver it "pretty well" ... whatever it is.

Bobtheman · 13-06-2020 7:00pm

It's totally irrelevant what the public thinks because they are largely a sheepish group. A lot done more to do ? Remember that. The persecution of umarried mother's was all the rage up to about 25 years ago. The public thought not having access to condoms was bang on up the 1990s.
Now they can't even say a woman menstruates without getting tied up in knots.
So when the public tells me I'm doing a good job ...I get very very worried.
The media hate teachers . Some parents- those whom we told some home truths mostly.
Best bet - don't listen to the media at all. Don't follow the crowd. Pied pipers

emmaro · 13-06-2020 7:02pm

Every single decision taken to do with education during this pandemic has been decided by the media.

It was the media who kept pushing the cancellation of the LC.....so it was cancelled.

Now the media is pushing that parents need kids to go back to school fully (even if that means ignoring health advice).

Yesterday's "plan" from McHugh was basically like "if we have to social distance your kid will hardly ever be in school...but if we ignore public health guidelines they'll be out of your hair fulltime!!". They want the public and media to get on board with schools being the only place where social distancing doesn't apply. No one cares about the safety of teachers anyway.

It would be a lot more difficult to do more online learning or blended learning...but if that's the safest option it should be what happens.

School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

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