School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

byhookorbycrook

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Well bully for you . Have you ever worked with 30 6 year olds in a confined space ? No? Didn’t think so. A workspace with adults only doesn’t compare to a space with children with bigger numbers and longer hours .

Very few children have Covid, they are not superspreaders. Covid is not rampant among 6 year olds , you need to relax . What do you mean by longer hours ? I work with teams of people in an open plan office for 8. 5 hours a day. Do teacher work in direct contact with their pupils for 8.5 hours a day

The longer people are not in contact with other people in workplaces, the most scared they become. If you have been working consistently throughout Covid in an office or a supermarket or a hospital you learn to work alongside it, you don’t have the same level of fear that people who have been working from home or cocooning seem to have.

byhookorbycrook

Jizique wrote: »

It won’t - the death number are 1700 approx and the number of recovered are 24k approx.
If you still think Covid means death, I hope you are not a teacher.
Of that 1700 number, 85% had underlying conditions; many were in their 90s. Each one sad, tragic, but it is not a death sentence.

Yes, I’m a teacher . I’m immuno-suppressed as are many of my students. We also have a good number of children who have vulnerable adults at home . What do you work at ?

byhookorbycrook

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Very few children have Covid, they are not superspreaders. Covid is not rampant among 6 year olds , you need to relax . What do you mean by longer hours ? I work with teams of people in an open plan office for 8. 5 hours a day. Do teacher work in direct contact with their pupils for 8.5 hours a day

The longer people are not in contact with other people in workplaces, the most scared they become. If you have been working consistently throughout Covid in an office or a supermarket or a hospital you learn to work alongside it, you don’t have the same level of fear that people who have been working from home or cocooning seem to have.

I’d hope the adults you work at have proper respiratory hygiene ? Hospitals have PPE , retail outlets limit the number of people at any one time and also use masks / Perspex screens .

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

Very few children have Covid, they are not superspreaders. Covid is not rampant among 6 year olds , you need to relax . What do you mean by longer hours ? I work with teams of people in an open plan office for 8. 5 hours a day. Do teacher work in direct contact with their pupils for 8.5 hours a day

The longer people are not in contact with other people in workplaces, the most scared they become. If you have been working consistently throughout Covid in an office or a supermarket or a hospital you learn to work alongside it, you don’t have the same level of fear that people who have been working from home or cocooning seem to have.

This is correct it isnt rampant but did you know that 30 children under 14 caught Covid19 in the week preceding 4th June, of those 17 were hospitalised and 2 were in ICU. That is 2 weeks after social restriction regarding children mixing with friends were lifted.

We are going to have to live with it but that doesnt mean schools should not ask for proper hygiene and sanitizer just because Joe public feel it is gone. Even the experts dont think it gone but dampened.

Jizique

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Yes, I’m a teacher . I’m immuno-suppressed as are many of my students. We also have a good number of children who have vulnerable adults at home . What do you work at ?

If you are a teacher, how could you write “a cold won’t kill you, Covid will”.
That is simply wrong.
I wouldn’t like to get it, but I wouldn’t like to get a few other diseases either.

juneg

You've a very positive attitude sweetmaggie and theres a lot to admire in your posts there.

I am very concerned about going into a badly ventilated shoebox with 30 infants whom I may infect or who may infect me.

In short I feel like a sitting duck

Jizique

juneg wrote: »

You've a very positive attitude sweetmaggie and theres a lot to admire in your posts there.

I am very concerned about going into a badly ventilated shoebox with 30 infants whom I may infect or who may infect me.

In short I feel like a sitting duck

Apply for a career break or think about a new career?

juneg

Jizique wrote: »

Apply for a career break or think about a new career?

And pay the bills how???

Jizique

juneg wrote: »

And pay the bills how???

Tough choices but life must go on to the greatest extent possible

r93kaey5p2izun

Jizique wrote: »

Tough choices but life must go on to the greatest extent possible

Since you're advocating teachers who want the same protection as other employees to leave and go elsewhere, then I take it your main interest is in seeing your children babysat rather than educated?

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

This is correct it isnt rampant but did you know that 30 children under 14 caught Covid19 in the week preceding 4th June, of those 17 were hospitalised and 2 were in ICU. That is 2 weeks after social restriction regarding children mixing with friends were lifted.

We are going to have to live with it but that doesnt mean schools should not ask for proper hygiene and sanitizer just because Joe public feel it is gone. Even the experts dont think it gone but dampened.

At no stage did I say it not important to have hand sanitizer , social distancing and cough etiquette in work. We do.

Jizique

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

Since you're advocating teachers who want the same protection as other employees to leave and go elsewhere, then I take it your main interest is in seeing your children babysat rather than educated?

Not at all and I’m not sure how you take that from what I say; I just feel we need to plan on the basis that schools reopen in Sept.
By Sept, I would hope that conditions are even better than today, which is much improved on 10 weeks ago.

juneg

juneg wrote: »

You've a very positive attitude sweetmaggie and theres a lot to admire in your posts there.

I am very concerned about going into a badly ventilated shoebox with 30 infants whom I may infect or who may infect me.

In short I feel like a sitting duck

Thanks but believe me I’m not always positive!
I lost a 5 year old child to cancer . It gave me perspective, it probably made me tougher too . There is so much needless hysteria about Covid. It’s not the death sentence that cancer is.

I’ll say it again, the drip feeding of terror from the media for 3 months has done untold damage and is crippling the country. You are not going to be infected by 30 infants .

km79

I will just leave this publication by the government here https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/22829a-return-to-work-safely-protocol/
before I bow out of yet another thread in this forum destroyed by people outside the profession.
Are we really not allowed to talk about our working conditions as a professional community on the teaching and lecturing forum occasionally ? It is not like After Hours and Current Affairs are lacking in teacher bashing threads.

Anyways as predicted earlier mission accomplished Joe. It is all those pesky teachers fault. I must have imagined having to stand outside the store, trying to hear what the person wearing a full face guard was saying to me when I finally got to bring my son in to specsavers to TRY and get his glasses repaired after 3 months of obeying the travel restrictions. They must not have got the memo. COVID 19 in the community has been eliminated. From the last week of August onwards

Enjoy the summer folks. But do not travel more than 20km outside your county etc etc

r93kaey5p2izun

Jizique wrote: »

Not at all and I’m not sure how you take that from what I say; I just feel we need to plan on the basis that schools reopen in Sept.
By Sept, I would hope that conditions are even better than today, which is much improved on 10 weeks ago.

Well then try supporting teachers to ensure arrangements are in place to have them protected as much as possible and school open as normally as possible. There is a very significant teacher shortage already. Be very careful with dismissing teacher safety concerns and telling them go elsewhere if they don't like it.

That has been this country's response to several other issues teachers have had over the past few years. Signs on they have done just that and now we have classes across the country with no teacher.

Jizique

km79 wrote: »

I will just leave this publication by the government here https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/22829a-return-to-work-safely-protocol/
before I bow out of yet another thread in this forum destroyed by people outside the profession.
Are we really not allowed to talk about our working conditions as a professional community on the teaching and lecturing forum occasionally ? It is not like After Hours and Current Affairs are lacking in teacher bashing threads.

Anyways as predicted earlier mission accomplished Joe. It is all those pesky teachers fault. I must have imagined having to stand outside the store, trying to hear what the person wearing a full face guard was saying to me when I finally got to bring my son in to specsavers to TRY and get his glasses repaired after 3 months of obeying the travel restrictions. They must not have got the memo. COVID 19 in the community has been eliminated. From the last week of August onwards

Enjoy the summer folks. But do not travel more than 20km outside your county etc etc

Relax, nobody is having a cut at teachers. I am just fascinated by their unwillingness to consider the risks associated with Covid - it’s not like they are nurses in ICU. They are not being asked to work in a meat plant or in an old folks home.
If they feel that the job is no longer for them, they need to do something else.

khalessi

Jizique wrote: »

Relax, nobody is having a cut at teachers. I am just fascinated by their unwillingness to consider the risks associated with Covid - it’s not like they are nurses in ICU. They are not being asked to work in a meat plant or in an old folks home.
If they feel that the job is no longer for them, they need to do something else.

Speaking as a nurse for 20 years, in ICU if was necessary I wore PPE and on the Covid wards and in Covid A/E during this pandemic the nurses have worn suitable PPE even now. By the way you would be surprised at how many of the medical profession are now in teaching.

It amazes me that the public throw a hissy fit just because teachers are asking for reasonable sanitary conditions. I have masks and will wear them in September until I am satisfied that there is no risk. I would prefer to be teaching in a classroom then online, but while we are teaching online I have given it 110% as I dont want my students missing out.

TheDriver

here we go again. Wild assumptions, unfounded statements etc etc are going to lead to bans. Read the forum charter. If you want to moan about teachers, go to after hours.
Cards and bans are next if anyone wants them.

Rosita

Jizique wrote: »

I just feel we need to plan on the basis that schools reopen in Sept.

It is extraordinary that you would actually feel the need to write this sentence.

It is the lack of a plan from the Dept of Education in their document that is the talking point here.

School have been reopening in August (Not sure where you get September from - I was back on about the 20th August a year or two ago) for years. It's not ground-breaking to suggest it should happen one more time. But we do need to plan on the basis of public health advice and not just what the Minister would like to see.

Just to get one dose of reality into this at the start. We'd all like to see all children back in school. We'd all like the Covid-19 to be gone. We'd all like to be able to not need PPE. We'd all like to not have to queue and wait to do routine things in shops. We'd all like to be able to go for a haircut. We'd all like to be able to go to a championship hurling or football match on Sunday. We'd all like to be able to fly to Spain at the weekend without having a two-week quarantine awaiting is.

But there cannot be restrictions on all these normal activities while telling people in particular work environments that none of this matters in their workplace. You cannot tell us that social distancing will be with us for years and then say...……….apart from one particular workplace. And in the midst of all the 'think of the kids' commentary, it is a workplace.

So yes, an actual plan would be good. One that includes an acknowledgement and proper assessment of the risks. One that mentioned the scientific research on how Covid-19 affects children and admits how limited it is. One which deals with on how children with asthma and other underlying conditions will be catered for. I won't be bold enough to suggest that teachers' health and underlying conditions should be considered.

How about a plan advising on how schools will deal with actual outbreaks of Covid-19 among students - a school had to close last February/March. Is that possible/likely again? If so, advise on the contingency plan (like there is one!!!) for exams and workload for students (got to keep mentioning students because nobody will give a f*** about the teachers) Prof Sam McConkey in yesterday's Irish Times said "it is not a case of 'if'; it is almost guaranteed that it will be a case of 'when'" the virus rises again. It is only those with zero medical knowledge will tell you the virus is gone.

Schools have shelved plans for TY trips and various activities for the coming year. What would the plan say on these? Can schools now press on with these activities if normal school is to go ahead. And if not why not? And would the government be prepared to put its money where its mouth is if they have to be cancelled? (No, I didn't think so either)

That's what might be expected in a plan. The "I want to work therefore I'm better than you" thing is fine and when McHugh and his officials are poring over this forum trying to gauge reaction that's exactly the reaction they'll hope for. But in the end they will actually have to address these matters. That pile of badly-written claptrap published the other day (they can't even tell the difference between 'complement' and compliment') is just a distraction by McHugh knowing it'll be the last we'll hear from him on it.

shesty

Absolutely, Friday was a complete shambles.And I am only speaking as a parent.It caused as much confusion and anger among parents as among teachers.They are going back?They aren't going back?How do you expect us to go back to work, if we haven't a clue what will be happening?Blended learning...yeah lovely, except it means one of us has to plan to be home X number of days per week to manage that with our SI, can we even do that??Utter rubbish, the lot of it.

Bobtheman, I actually don't think you are looking for enough.I was thinking overnight, and if I was a secondary school teacher, would it be unreasonable to consider the following as basic requirements for schools to return?

For post primary....Teachers (or whole schools) chose to wear masks or have a clear screen system installed around their desk?
Hand sanitiser stations in every room, use going in and out
Daily cleaning of everywhere.
Consideration of one way systems in schools (if not already in place) to facilitate movement between classrooms.Probably school-dependent.
Ensuring opening windows in every room.Install safety latches if needed to facilitate
Potentially have all students wear masks-but teachers could advise whether that is a real possibility or not, would it work.
No leaving the school premises at lunch times.Possibly designate specific classrooms for lunches for 1 class at a time for the foreseeable future.If weather is nice, rotate an outdoor area....or similar??Again, probably school dependent.
Masks must be worn on any public school transport to and from school

Primary....staggered drop offs/pick ups from yards.Each class has it's own outdoor line.Older kids can line up, then be sent to the gate??Younger have 2/3 parents at time walk in or move to gate to visibly pick up??
Hand sanitisers/hand washing sinks in every room.Regular use.
Daily deep cleaning.
No moving around the school.PE outdoors whenever possible.
Assuming no masks or screens at this level.
Again with the open windows.
Staggered yard times.

Off the top of my head, they are just suggestions.Obviously they would be subject to teachers advising on them, and obviosuly they would be dependent on the school and it's physical set up, but surely certain of them are blindingly obvious and should be happening, no matter what.I suspect the secondary schools could be a bigger concern for viral spread, but equally the level of understanding is better for a 15 year old than a 5 year old.....

However (as a parent) I await with bated breath the next Dept. installment of this saga.

Treppen

Jizique wrote: »

Relax, nobody is having a cut at teachers. I am just fascinated by their unwillingness to consider the risks associated with Covid - it’s not like they are nurses in ICU. They are not being asked to work in a meat plant or in an old folks home.
If they feel that the job is no longer for them, they need to do something else.

It's about safe working conditions.
If someone was being sexually harassed, bullied at work or told to undertake hazardous actions would you say "If they feel that the job is no longer for them, they need to do something else."?

Treppen

shesty wrote: »

Absolutely, Friday was a complete shambles.And I am only speaking as a parent.It caused as much confusion and anger among parents as among teachers.They are going back?They aren't going back?How do you expect us to go back to work, if we haven't a clue what will be happening?Blended learning...yeah lovely, except it means one of us has to plan to be home X number of days per week to manage that with our SI, can we even do that??Utter rubbish, the lot of it.

Bobtheman, I actually don't think you are looking for enough.I was thinking overnight, and if I was a secondary school teacher, would it be unreasonable to consider the following as basic requirements for schools to return?

For post primary....Teachers (or whole schools) chose to wear masks or have a clear screen system installed around their desk?
Hand sanitiser stations in every room, use going in and out
Daily cleaning of everywhere.
Consideration of one way systems in schools (if not already in place) to facilitate movement between classrooms.Probably school-dependent.
Ensuring opening windows in every room.Install safety latches if needed to facilitate
Potentially have all students wear masks-but teachers could advise whether that is a real possibility or not, would it work.
No leaving the school premises at lunch times.Possibly designate specific classrooms for lunches for 1 class at a time for the foreseeable future.If weather is nice, rotate an outdoor area....or similar??Again, probably school dependent.
Masks must be worn on any public school transport to and from school

Primary....staggered drop offs/pick ups from yards.Each class has it's own outdoor line.Older kids can line up, then be sent to the gate??Younger have 2/3 parents at time walk in or move to gate to visibly pick up??
Hand sanitisers/hand washing sinks in every room.Regular use.
Daily deep cleaning.
No moving around the school.PE outdoors whenever possible.
Assuming no masks or screens at this level.
Again with the open windows.
Staggered yard times.

Off the top of my head, they are just suggestions.Obviously they would be subject to teachers advising on them, and obviosuly they would be dependent on the school and it's physical set up, but surely certain of them are blindingly obvious and should be happening, no matter what.I suspect the secondary schools could be a bigger concern for viral spread, but equally the level of understanding is better for a 15 year old than a 5 year old.....

However (as a parent) I await with bated breath the next Dept. installment of this saga.

Teachers are used to it by now , but you have to ask why these pronouncements are always lobbed into the arena on Friday afternoons , and usually leaked to the media first.

Jizique

Treppen wrote: »

It's about safe working conditions.
If someone was being sexualities harassed, bullied at work or told to undertake hazardous actions would you say "If they feel that the job is no longer for them, they need to do something else."?

It is about who gets to decide what is safe by the sounds of it - if NPHET say it is safe and the govt agrees and accepts the need to move forward on this basis, and if we continue to have single-digit cases, will the unions be prepared to engage and agree?

Treppen

Jizique wrote: »

If you are a teacher, how could you write “a cold won’t kill you, Covid will”.
That is simply wrong.
I wouldn’t like to get it, but I wouldn’t like to get a few other diseases either.

I think they meant Covid could kill you.

Bobtheman

I want to go back . Teaching kids online didn't really work.
I had a lot of kids who never engaged My own IT skills were very weak. I never found a way I was comfortable with for online classes as I feared being recorded. Didn't get a huge amount of leadership from my school or Department
However if we go back and it's more than likely then I need health cover. What I mean is proper health support. Quick testing and flexible sick leave.
Teaching with a mask is a non runner. Perhaps smaller class sizes . I do have an underlying condition and my wife does . I am.willing to take some risks but I want medical support. In this country that's a big thing when you fork out a half days wages going to a doctor.

History Queen

Jizique wrote: »

It is about who gets to decide what is safe by the sounds of it - if NPHET say it is safe and the govt agrees and accepts the need to move forward on this basis, and if we continue to have single-digit cases, will the unions be prepared to engage and agree?

Oh God ya, and unions have said this. Their main objection at the moment is that schools would be seen as some sort of outlier in relation to public health advice. Remember unionsarelooking after their members interests as they should. Their role is to protect teachers. We want to return to schools as normally and as safely as possible, both for us and our students and colleagues.

Link below outlines that all three unions are on the same page as regards this (unusual enough in itself!):

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0613/1147260-coronavirus-schools/

amacca

shesty wrote: »

Absolutely, Friday was a complete shambles.And I am only speaking as a parent.It caused as much confusion and anger among parents as among teachers.They are going back?They aren't going back?How do you expect us to go back to work, if we haven't a clue what will be happening?Blended learning...yeah lovely, except it means one of us has to plan to be home X number of days per week to manage that with our SI, can we even do that??Utter rubbish, the lot of it.

Bobtheman, I actually don't think you are looking for enough.I was thinking overnight, and if I was a secondary school teacher, would it be unreasonable to consider the following as basic requirements for schools to return?

For post primary....Teachers (or whole schools) chose to wear masks or have a clear screen system installed around their desk?
Hand sanitiser stations in every room, use going in and out
Daily cleaning of everywhere.
Consideration of one way systems in schools (if not already in place) to facilitate movement between classrooms.Probably school-dependent.
Ensuring opening windows in every room.Install safety latches if needed to facilitate
Potentially have all students wear masks-but teachers could advise whether that is a real possibility or not, would it work.
No leaving the school premises at lunch times.Possibly designate specific classrooms for lunches for 1 class at a time for the foreseeable future.If weather is nice, rotate an outdoor area....or similar??Again, probably school dependent.
Masks must be worn on any public school transport to and from school

Primary....staggered drop offs/pick ups from yards.Each class has it's own outdoor line.Older kids can line up, then be sent to the gate??Younger have 2/3 parents at time walk in or move to gate to visibly pick up??
Hand sanitisers/hand washing sinks in every room.Regular use.
Daily deep cleaning.
No moving around the school.PE outdoors whenever possible.
Assuming no masks or screens at this level.
Again with the open windows.
Staggered yard times.

Off the top of my head, they are just suggestions.Obviously they would be subject to teachers advising on them, and obviosuly they would be dependent on the school and it's physical set up, but surely certain of them are blindingly obvious and should be happening, no matter what.I suspect the secondary schools could be a bigger concern for viral spread, but equally the level of understanding is better for a 15 year old than a 5 year old.....

However (as a parent) I await with bated breath the next Dept. installment of this saga.

Actual discipline and not lip service to it would be required for a lot of that

I suspect there would be many teachers thinking these would make it very realistic to go back but actually making those things happen in some teaching environments would be difficult

Gone are the days when the teacher was more or less in charge.....thete would need to be a conversation about a certain cohort of students doing what they are told (in the interests of public health) and consequences for not doing so with back up for teachers and management so they are not forced to bury their heads in the sand or turn a blind eye when students that are used to doing whatever the he'll they like and more or less getting away with it continue to do so.

acequion

The smug remark from Aine Lynch,spokewoman for NPC, reported on the RTE news last night really made my blood boil. Basically that so many others were working during the crisis so why not teachers! Implying that we weren't working at all. Not specifying that all those who had to go to workplaces were given protection. Implying that protecting teachers is unimportant as long as the little darlings get to school.

My blood is still boiling. The contempt and disregard shown to teachers from even those who are supposed to be in a team with us is really breathtaking.:mad:

Now I've been fighting with lockdown zealots on other fora, even received a ban for my trouble . Because personally I'm all for opening up now and getting on with it, albeit safely. And I'd love nothing better than to see us all being able to return to near normal school environments in September. But with basic safety measures in place, the same as in every other workplace.

And on principle I will not stand over the health of teachers being compromised while there is an acknowledgement that other sectors still need protection.

The union could have a battle on their hands. A battle we all need to stand behind.

juneg

Treppen wrote: »

It's about safe working conditions.
If someone was being sexually harassed, bullied at work or told to undertake hazardous actions would you say "If they feel that the job is no longer for them, they need to do something else."?

Thank you. Its actually a classic bullying line to be told if you don't like it quit your job or go elsewhere.

s1ippy

I'm just waiting for the headlines next week "Teachers Uptake of Summer Programme Extremely Low".

"Teachers and SNAs won't sign up to do it? That's disgraceful, they've already had three months holidays AND it's extra pay."

They are unsure about a summer programme with no clear guidelines, funding, plan in place whatsoever. Any teachers with any sort of a conscience or moral fibre whatsoever have been working full time and SNAs have been asked to assist in ways you couldn't possibly even imagine all over the country.

Many people who did July provision last year still haven't received pay.

The use of PPE and social distancing has not been raised.

I can't believe there are actually luddites out there who are annoyed with teachers, they really must be dense individuals to direct their anger that way. Maybe education has been drastically underfunded for all these years.