Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

whisky_galore · 07-11-2019 10:26am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The train from Nenagh arrives in Limerick at 8:45. It leaves Limerick at 16:55. It's no use to anyone working in Limerick as it arrives too late and leaves too early. It's also missing out on people in Castleconnell. Change the times so it arrives before 8am and leaves after 17:30 and you will increase ridership.

Fine for grannies for their bit of shopping, and students perhaps, utterly useless for commuting.

bk · 07-11-2019 11:53am

spacetweek wrote: »

This might shock you to your core but trains, when done well, are way faster and more convenient than driving.

In reality, trains in rural areas are almost always far slower then cars door to door and far less convenient. They simply can't compete in rural areas.

Trains can be faster into and around large and dense cities, due to how bad traffic congestion is, this is where they excel and where or focus should be.

No point in talking about high speed rail, no one is going to spend the billions it costs for towns of a few hundred and even a few thousand. You need cities with more then a million at both ends to justify that.

Rural rail really doesn't make much sense in our modern world of almost everyone in rural parts having cars and nice motorways to drive them on.

This sort of talk is a distraction where we badly need to be focusing our public transport investment metros, luas, dart, commuter rail, etc.

PhilOssophy · 07-11-2019 12:03pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The train from Nenagh arrives in Limerick at 8:45. It leaves Limerick at 16:55. It's no use to anyone working in Limerick as it arrives too late and leaves too early. It's also missing out on people in Castleconnell. Change the times so it arrives before 8am and leaves after 17:30 and you will increase ridership.

You are still relying on enough people living and working close to each station before it is useful. I doubt the demand is there.

MrAbyss · 07-11-2019 2:58pm

bk wrote: »

Rural rail really doesn't make much sense in our modern world of almost everyone in rural parts having cars and nice motorways to drive them on.

This sort of talk is a distraction where we badly need to be focusing our public transport investment metros, luas, dart, commuter rail, etc.

Limerick is not a village. I agree with the main need for investment, but a decent Nenagh to Limerick direct morning and evening service would be successful.

As for distractions, the PPT route was once considered a distraction from the Interconnector. It is now an integral part of the Metrolink at Glasnevin.

bk · 07-11-2019 7:44pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Limerick is not a village. I agree with the main need for investment, but a decent Nenagh to Limerick direct morning and evening service would be successful.

I was talking in a general sense. But to be brutally honest, and as a Corkonian it kills me to say it, but we really have only one city of any half decent scale.

Limerick, Cork, etc. would be considered just large towns in most other countries.

Cities in Brazil have tens of millions of people and not a single intercity rail service running, not that that is a good thing, but it makes you realise how small scale we are here in Ireland.

MrAbyss wrote: »

As for distractions, the PPT route was once considered a distraction from the Interconnector. It is now an integral part of the Metrolink at Glasnevin.

PPT was never a distraction! We all knew it was an excellent option. Irish Rail just didn't want to admit it as it greatly weakens the business case for Dart Underground.

lucernarian · 08-11-2019 12:34pm

bk wrote: »

I was talking in a general sense. But to be brutally honest, and as a Corkonian it kills me to say it, but we really have only one city of any half decent scale.

Limerick, Cork, etc. would be considered just large towns in most other countries.

Cities in Brazil have tens of millions of people and not a single intercity rail service running, not that that is a good thing, but it makes you realise how small scale we are here in Ireland.

PPT was never a distraction! We all knew it was an excellent option. Irish Rail just didn't want to admit it as it greatly weakens the business case for Dart Underground.

It only seems to weaken the case for Dart Underground in the minds of people who just don't see the point of a large infrastructure project basically going into the hands of CIE. The NTA board themselves, I remind you, felt that Dart Underground ought to be the defining infrastructure project for Dublin in the now-current National Development Plan and that was in tandem with the PPT already being operational. Saying that it "greatly weakens the business case" sorta makes PPT a distraction by definition, or am I missing something?

bk · 08-11-2019 4:53pm

lucernarian wrote: »

It only seems to weaken the case for Dart Underground in the minds of people who just don't see the point of a large infrastructure project basically going into the hands of CIE. The NTA board themselves, I remind you, felt that Dart Underground ought to be the defining infrastructure project for Dublin in the now-current National Development Plan and that was in tandem with the PPT already being operational. Saying that it "greatly weakens the business case" sorta makes PPT a distraction by definition, or am I missing something?

Please link me to the NTA Board saying that DART Underground is the defining infrastructure project for Dublin?!!!

The current development plan has Metrolink and Dart Expansion as the two important plans happening now. DU was clearly at best long fingered out to, "ah we will think about it, eventually, when everything else more important is done, maybe".

I absolutely agree that DU needs to happen eventually. But now it doesn't need to happen as soon as PPT gives us a lot of what it offered, specially once it is all linked up with Metrolink.

I don't think you can call something a distraction when it delivers you a great deal of benefit and improvement in service at a fraction of the cost of DU. It is more of a case of grabbing the low hanging fruit. And Dart Expansion is more of that, prioritising the maximum bang for the buck.

lucernarian · 08-11-2019 5:56pm

bk wrote: »

Please link me to the NTA Board saying that DART Underground is the defining infrastructure project for Dublin?!!!

The current development plan has Metrolink and Dart Expansion as the two important plans happening now. DU was clearly at best long fingered out to, "ah we will think about it, eventually, when everything else more important is done, maybe".

I absolutely agree that DU needs to happen eventually. But now it doesn't need to happen as soon as PPT gives us a lot of what it offered, specially once it is all linked up with Metrolink.

I don't think you can call something a distraction when it delivers you a great deal of benefit and improvement in service at a fraction of the cost of DU. It is more of a case of grabbing the low hanging fruit. And Dart Expansion is more of that, prioritising the maximum bang for the buck.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/transport-authority-board-did-not-review-government-metro-announcement-1.3445850

That alone shows the situation in reality is not how it's being portrayed here. And Dart Expansion is sort of a red herring without the likes of triple-tracking howth junction or clongriffin to Connolly. Based on peak time movements of trains etc and the relatively short distance involved, and mix of services, triple-tracking would bring most of the benefits of quad-tracking at a far lower cost. I remember estimates a while back for 3-track at like €250 million vs 4-track at €800 million?

Last Stop · 09-11-2019 9:17am

bk wrote: »

Please link me to the NTA Board saying that DART Underground is the defining infrastructure project for Dublin?!!!

While not a direct source to the above, the GDA strategy modelling sees DU as so critical it includes it in its do minimum strategy and takes it as a given that it will be built before 2035.

bk · 09-11-2019 10:11am

lucernarian wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/transport-authority-board-did-not-review-government-metro-announcement-1.3445850

That alone shows the situation in reality is not how it's being portrayed here.

Huh?! That article says:

Minutes just published of a recent NTA board meeting also appear to show support at the board for the Dart Underground project, funding for which was not included in the the recent 10-year Government programme.

Funding for the the Dart Underground – a 7.6km underground tunnel between Heuston and Pearse stations with a number of new underground stations – is not included up to 2027 in the new Government programme, though significant other Dart developments – including some which were part of the underground plan – are included.

Doesn't sound like the defining project to me at all!

They "support" it, of course they do, I never claimed otherwise. It will eventually happen, but it definitely isn't the "defining" project. If it was it would have been included in the current 10 year plan.

Instead you get wishy washy talk like "developments which are being undertaken must be designed so as not to preclude the future development of the Dart Underground project."

Read between the lines, it isn't included in the current 10 year plan, it is going to need to be redesigned, they say they "support" it, but without actually putting forward any firm plans, no timelines, no budget, no rail order. "support it" is just official speak for it not happening any time soon.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it will eventually happen and yes it should happen. Just don't hold your breath for it.

MrAbyss · 09-11-2019 10:37pm

as a sideline the Nenagh line is currently being relaid.

Del.Monte · 09-11-2019 11:00pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

as a sideline the Nenagh line is currently being relaid.

Only a small length and to what purpose one might ask. The service is already regularly substituted by a bus - a sure way of discouraging passengers.

PhilOssophy · 10-11-2019 9:51am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Only a small length and to what purpose one might ask. The service is already regularly substituted by a bus - a sure way of discouraging passengers.

Sure if there's 60 users a day, they only need a bus.

Del.Monte · 10-11-2019 11:19am

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Sure if there's 60 users a day, they only need a bus.

And if the DART was operated in the same way we would need fleets of new buses and car congestion would bring the city to a standstill as people abandoned the railway. What's your point?

donvito99 · 10-11-2019 11:56am

Del.Monte wrote: »

And if the DART was operated in the same way we would need fleets of new buses and car congestion would bring the city to a standstill as people abandoned the railway. What's your point?

Are you seriously comparing the DART with the Ballybrophy Branch?

Should we replace all bus services in the country with inordinately expensive to build and operate heavy railway lines?

ncounties · 10-11-2019 12:34pm

Suggestion - perhaps this thread should be renamed Limerick Commuter Rail.

Del.Monte · 10-11-2019 12:48pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing the DART with the Ballybrophy Branch?

Should we replace all bus services in the country with inordinately expensive to build and operate heavy railway lines?

Absolutely, we should have an electrified 5 minute service on the Nenagh branch. :rolleyes:

hans aus dtschl · 10-11-2019 5:19pm

ncounties wrote: »

Suggestion - perhaps this thread should be renamed Limerick Commuter Rail.

Might be merit in such a thread yep.

ohographite · 10-11-2019 9:43pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing the DART with the Ballybrophy Branch?

Should we replace all bus services in the country with inordinately expensive to build and operate heavy railway lines?

I set up a thread specifically for the Limerick - Ballybrophy railway, where we can continue the debate about it.

Here's the link to it:
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058029695/1/#post111737079

PhilOssophy · 11-11-2019 12:07pm

Why not ask JP if he wants to build a rail line to Adare, tell him he can do it as a PPP.

I can't see him biting...

Ireland trains · 11-08-2020 2:56pm

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/08/10/cabinet-discuss-potential-e200m-limerick-suburban-rail-line/

PhilOssophy · 11-08-2020 7:58pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/08/10/cabinet-discuss-potential-e200m-limerick-suburban-rail-line/

It'd be great if Limerick Green Party TD, Brian Leddin would explain
1. How much demand there is for this line
2. How much maintenance per annum will be
3. How much the subvention per passenger will be.

He might have a look at the Ballybrophy to Limerick line, it is only costing €550 per passenger. Another great legacy of Alan Kelly along with Irish Water.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/railway-line-is-costing-550-per-passenger-to-run-1.2867906

kilburn · 11-08-2020 8:11pm

Demand would be very high the lines flow through the city and through all the major residential areas and commuter towns.

You can't compare to the Ballybrophy line that's comparing apples and oranges

Del.Monte · 11-08-2020 9:19pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

It'd be great if Limerick Green Party TD, Brian Leddin would explain
1. How much demand there is for this line
2. How much maintenance per annum will be
3. How much the subvention per passenger will be.

He might have a look at the Ballybrophy to Limerick line, it is only costing €550 per passenger. Another great legacy of Alan Kelly along with Irish Water.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/railway-line-is-costing-550-per-passenger-to-run-1.2867906

I can't see how the deplorable situation on the Limerick/Ballybrophy line can be laid at the door of Alan Kelly as the route has been run into the ground for decades. Adare/Limerick could be a very worthwhile route and housing developments encouraged to follow it - proper planning instead of trying to shoehorn infrastructure in as an afterthought.

Cookiemunster · 11-08-2020 9:35pm

kilburn wrote: »

Demand would be very high the lines flow through the city and through all the major residential areas and commuter towns.

You can't compare to the Ballybrophy line that's comparing apples and oranges

The line is no use to anyone not working in Raheen and living along the line. Practically nobody works in the city center and most want to go to Plassey, Annacotty or even Shannon. These places can't be reached along this line.

By the time this would be built there will be a motorway bypass of Adare. A large park and ride near Patrickswell and direct bus services to the major industrial estates around the outskirts of the city via the motorway would make more sense IMO. And save most of the €200m.

kilburn · 11-08-2020 11:42pm

Disappointing that a Limerick person would be this dismissive of public transport improvements for the city and county

marno21 · 12-08-2020 1:41am

kilburn wrote: »

Disappointing that a Limerick person would be this dismissive of public transport improvements for the city and county

€200m could be much better spent in Limerick than a railway line to Adare. The same Adare that will soon have a congestion free motorway to the city which is well able for improved bus services.

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 8:48am

kilburn wrote: »

Disappointing that a Limerick person would be this dismissive of public transport improvements for the city and county

Believe it or not, buses are public transport.

PhilOssophy · 12-08-2020 8:53am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Believe it or not, buses are public transport.

That doesn't fit the agenda....public transport has to be
1. Expensive (a machine full of paint to type "Lána Bus" isn't swish enough)
2. Poorly thought out (i.e. no chance of changing the route to get more passengers)
3. Massively government subsidised (e.g. Ballybrophy to Limerick)
4. Be a photo opportunity for the minister involved.

Pete_Cavan · 12-08-2020 9:16am

I'm not sure that restoring heavy rail services there would work, both in terms of buildability and the service offered after opening. The double track part of that line doesn't go very far south, just after the N18. It is also wedged between the edge of development and the motorway, so limited accessibility and serves little or no development to the east. I'm not sure how Colbert would handle a meaningful level of commuter services from multiple lines terminating there, as well as intercity trains, and it isn't set up for thru services.

I think that old alignment, or parts of it, would be better used for light rail. From Raheen Business Park go on street along St Nessan's Road past UHL and existing residential development, swing around by Crescent Shopping Centre and use the double track line to Colbert. It can then run to UL and Castletroy in a way that heavy rail can't do. Adare is probably too far for a light rail system to run, Patrickswell would be more appropriate. A P&R at Patrickswell could serve Adare.

In any case, I can't see there being any sort of rail to Adare by the time of the Ryder Cup, there are just too many hurdles to jump in that time remaining.

kilburn · 12-08-2020 9:58am

marno21 wrote:

â‚¬200m could be much better spent in Limerick than a railway line to Adare. The same Adare that will soon have a congestion free motorway to the city which is well able for improved bus services.

The article is different to the thread headline they want to spend 200m restoring the light railway line infrastructure in the city including building stations at the likes of Moyross, Ballysimon, Corbally and the commuter towns.

They don't want to spend 200m building a railway line to Adare.

Only in Ireland would people be against the 3rd largest city having it's own light rail system when the bloody tracks are pretty much there already.

Dats me · 12-08-2020 10:38am

The rail line to Foynes is shovel ready right? Is that where €200m is coming from? How could Ennis-Athernry be €100m and Limerick-Adare be €200m? Leddin doesn't seem like a spoofer but it would seem the €200m is completely made up?

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 10:49am

kilburn wrote: »

The article is different to the thread headline they want to spend 200m restoring the light railway line infrastructure in the city including building stations at the likes of Moyross, Ballysimon, Corbally and the commuter towns.

They don't want to spend 200m building a railway line to Adare.

Only in Ireland would people be against the 3rd largest city having it's own light rail system when the bloody tracks are pretty much there already.

You don't build light rail on heavy rail tracks. To use that alignment the tracks would need to be ripped out and light rail tracks installed. That's never going to happen on CIE owned lines. And you definitely don't build a light rail track out to Adare where most of the line is running through rural countryside.

Limerick doesn't have the population density for 1 light rail system, never mind a network. It needs a much better bus service and park and rides around the outskirts with routes taking in all the major employments centers and shopping areas.

This is another example of Green idealism versus reality.

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 10:51am

Dats me wrote: »

The rail line to Foynes is shovel ready right? Is that where €200m is coming from? How could Ennis-Athernry be €100m and Limerick-Adare be €200m? Leddin doesn't seem like a spoofer but it would seem the €200m is completely made up?

Shovel ready means that something has been designed, gone through ABP and is ready to build once the money is allocated. This is nothing more than a pie in the sky idea and is most definitely not shovel ready.

kilburn · 12-08-2020 11:05am

Jesus wept light rail or heavy rail I don't know he wants to use the current infrastructure for example the Ennis train would stop at the new stations built what is the problem with adding stations on that line and giving people an option.

So negative it's unbelievable sometimes.

Cookiemunster · 12-08-2020 11:38am

It's not negativity, it's realism.

kilburn · 12-08-2020 11:43am

Cookiemunster wrote:

It's not negativity, it's realism.

Realism says that putting stations on a current commuter route is pie in the sky ?

LuasSimon · 12-08-2020 11:51am

With the exception of the possible Luas line in Cork the government are only interested in Dublin , providing rail lines in Adare will only encourage people to live in rural Ireland which is not wanted by the powers that be.

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 12:01pm

kilburn wrote: »

Jesus wept light rail or heavy rail I don't know he wants to use the current infrastructure for example the Ennis train would stop at the new stations built what is the problem with adding stations on that line and giving people an option.

So negative it's unbelievable sometimes.

Agreed, it's genuinely hard to tell if everyone is dumping on the idea of commuter rail in limerick or dumping on it because a green suggested it... How many stations currently exist in the suburbs of limerick along the Ennis/Foynes/Nenagh lines?

Do all the people being negative about this suggestion think that there would be no merit whatsoever to giving the Limerick suburbs a rail alternative by opening a few new stations and finding a few additional rail sets to run along them? Maybe some of the older sets when the new orders come in in a few years?

I don't think the idea should be immediately thrown in the bin, maybe it was just the Adare suggestion, what if it was just out as far as Raheen Business Park for that line, a few stations out to Moyross on the Ennis line, maybe make those a north to south route crossing the main line from Dublin? Or indeed look at some easy light rail solutions if possible? (I agree getting CIE to give up lines to light rail is a bit of a big ask)

Dats me · 12-08-2020 12:04pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Shovel ready means that something has been designed, gone through ABP and is ready to build once the money is allocated. This is nothing more than a pie in the sky idea and is most definitely not shovel ready.

Foynes say it's shovel ready, do a ctrl+f here: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.sfpc.ie/download/SFPC%2520-%2520Annual%2520Report%25202018%2520web%2520spreads.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjpxOznwZXrAhXgZxUIHQuYDpAQFjABegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw34nbjgkcUECR7gMS7NyJvl

But they say it's for freight only so you're right for all intents and purposes

Lord Glentoran · 12-08-2020 12:04pm

kilburn wrote: »

Realism says that putting stations on a current commuter route is pie in the sky ?

Yep. Apparently :rolleyes:

Pure balls everywhere else on this side of the Atlantic except for little America Ireland

PhilOssophy · 12-08-2020 12:09pm

kilburn wrote: »

Realism says that putting stations on a current commuter route is pie in the sky ?

It is pie in the sky if the population of the place is 1,129 people......would there be 5 people on any train?

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 12:12pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

It is pie in the sky if the population of the place is 1,129 people......would there be 5 people on any train?

Bit disingenuous, I don't think Mr Leddin was suggesting one Station in Adare and then direct to Colbert from there...

kilburn · 12-08-2020 12:19pm

PhilOssophy wrote:

It is pie in the sky if the population of the place is 1,129 people......would there be 5 people on any train?

You really need to go away and read the article as you keep focusing on the Adare piece

12-08-2020 12:44pm

I think you only need look at the farce that is the WRC from Ennis to Athenry to see how this would perform

Bass Reeves · 12-08-2020 12:45pm

kilburn wrote: »

You really need to go away and read the article as you keep focusing on the Adare piece

The problem is we are too focused on rail as a PT option. Even if that line was totally reopened the area along it has not got population density to support a rail service. On Ennis Limerick where do you put the stations. There is one at Sixmilebridge it's about the nearest point to Shannon and still is unused. I am not even sure how it access the city. It not accessing it through any densities populated part of the city. We put a spur to Shannon, a spur to Cratloe, maybe one to Kilgarven as well to collect a few there as well.

With COVID more and more 9-5 work will be from home. As it is there are very few people working in the center of Limerick. Train are not and cannot be frequent enough to provide a realistic PT system in Limerick.

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 12:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you only need look at the farce that is the WRC from Ennis to Athenry to see how this would perform

Again I feel it is disingenuous to compare a suburban rail proposal to a rural rail line.

I am not trying to claim the idea is feasible, I am only asking that comparisons not be drawn to entirely different situations, Western Rail Corridor and Ballybrophy are intended to serve wholly different service patterns to a suburban commuter line, its like saying "theres no point building the DART from Bray to Connolly, just look at how few trains run from Rosslare to Dublin, its pointless"

kilburn · 12-08-2020 1:00pm

Bass Reeves wrote:

The problem is we are too focused on rail as a PT option. Even if that line was totally reopened the area along it has not got population density to support a rail service. On Ennis Limerick where do you put the stations. There is one at Sixmilebridge it's about the nearest point to Shannon and still is unused. I am not even sure how it access the city. It not accessing it through any densities populated part of the city. We put a spur to Shannon, a spur to Cratloe, maybe one to Kilgarven as well to collect a few there as well.

Goes straight through Moyross, back of Thomondgate, middle of Corbally, Dublin road at the parkway, Ballysimon road then station.

5 minute walk to Thomond Park and Gaelic Grounds for matches.

If it was reasonably priced I would use no problem.

In a perfect world you would have a spur from Sixmilebridge through Shannon with stops at Smithstown, Free Zone and Airport.

riddlinrussell · 12-08-2020 1:03pm

kilburn wrote: »

Goes straight through Moyross, back of Thomondgate, middle of Corbally, Dublin road at the parkway, Ballysimon road then station.

5 minute walk to Thomond Park and Gaelic Grounds for matches.

If it was reasonably priced I would use no problem.

In a perfect world you would have a spur from Sixmilebridge through Shannon with stops at Smithstown, Free Zone and Airport.

Eventually there will be an airport in Ireland that will be able to claim "The only airport in Ireland with a rail link to the city" (It's a damning indictment that the closest we have to this is Farranfore...)

namloc1980 · 12-08-2020 1:11pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

With the exception of the possible Luas line in Cork the government are only interested in Dublin , providing rail lines in Adare will only encourage people to live in rural Ireland which is not wanted by the powers that be.

The motorway is much more likely to encourage people to live in rural locations than a heavy rail line on a 150+ year old alignment.

Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

Comments