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Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Last Stop wrote: »
    15km is not a major distance from the city centre. Swords, Bray etc are further away from Dublin. This would allow Adare become a commuter town with a sustainable form of transport. The route would serve large commuter areas of the city such as Doradoyle.

    Commute distance is relative to the size of the city. Dublin has sufficient pull to make Longford a commuter town. Limerick does not. You can purchase a 2-3 bed home in the city for under €100k so it doesn't have any practical use for distant commuter towns. You'd be mental to buy a house in Adare with the intention of commuting to Limerick City Centre every day when you can have a 2 bed flat in the City Centre for €80k


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    cgcsb wrote: »
    A city which currently has no commuter rail network. Talk about Cart before horse.

    Do you want to reread what you just said?

    To clarify you are saying they shouldn’t build a commuter rail line in Limerick because Limerick doesn’t have a commuter rail network? Am I’m missing something here??


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Do you want to reread what you just said?

    To clarify you are saying they shouldn’t build a commuter rail line in Limerick because Limerick doesn’t have a commuter rail network? Am I’m missing something here??

    The City needs to have a commuter network before an exurb can.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Commute distance is relative to the size of the city. Dublin has sufficient pull to make Longford a commuter town. Limerick does not. You can purchase a 2-3 bed home in the city for under €100k so it doesn't have any practical use for distant commuter towns. You'd be mental to buy a house in Adare with the intention of commuting to Limerick City Centre every day when you can have a 2 bed flat in the City Centre for €80k

    You could, but the reason that they're that cheap is that they're in areas that nobody wants to live. The cheapest housing in areas that people want to actually live would be in the €160-180 range. Average price in the city is €200k. And as for city center the flats for €80k, again there's a reason they're that cheap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    having central areas that nobody wants to live in is a problem and promoting 15km+ commutes to facilitate people not living in them is not a solution. We've been through this in Ireland and across the western world many times before.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,031 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    You could, but the reason that they're that cheap is that they're in areas that nobody wants to live. The cheapest housing in areas that people want to actually live would be in the €160-180 range. Average price in the city is €200k. And as for city center the flats for €80k, again there's a reason they're that cheap.

    It would be more cost effective to build a prison on cheap land to rid the city of the scum that make it unlivable rather than force decent folk into a lifetime of unnecessarily long commuting just to try to escape the crime and anti-social behaviour that spoils our otherwise decent urban areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The City needs to have a commuter network before an exurb can.

    This line would do both. It would serve the inner suburbs and extend to the exurb (don’t even know if that’s a defined term) to serve the towns of Patrickswell and Adare.

    You’re trying to justify not building a piece of infrastructure (line to Adare) purely because we don’t have another piece of infrastructure (Limerick rail network). That’s like saying we shouldn’t build Metro because we don’t have Dart underground. They are two different projects and can be built independently of each other, however when combined their benefit is greater.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    It would be more cost effective to build a prison on cheap land to rid the city of the scum that make it unlivable rather than force decent folk into a lifetime of unnecessarily long commuting just to try to escape the crime and anti-social behaviour that spoils our otherwise decent urban areas.

    As much as I appreciate the satirical nature of the post, between the cost of extra guards, the courts system, the prison and the gentrification of the areas the rail line would be a multiple cheaper.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The approach is all wrong. It's a small city, it isn't Tokyo where 15km commutes are understandable. The whole population can comfortably fit within a 20 minute cycle from the centre. Encouraging mammoth commutes isn't good for the people and is even worse for the environment. Think of the energy used to move those people when ample housing in central areas would cutncommutes and energy consumption by transport to near nothing.

    My point about commuter rail is, the core area has to have good service first. As we see in Dublin people demanding their rural mountain communities are served by on street trams has resulted in the system being unbordable by the time it reaches the inner suburbs


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The approach is all wrong. It's a small city, it isn't Tokyo where 15km commutes are understandable. The whole population can comfortably fit within a 20 minute cycle from the centre. Encouraging mammoth commutes isn't good for the people and is even worse for the environment. Think of the energy used to move those people when ample housing in central areas would cutncommutes and energy consumption by transport to near nothing.

    My point about commuter rail is, the core area has to have good service first. As we see in Dublin people demanding their rural mountain communities are served by on street trams has resulted in the system being unbordable by the time it reaches the inner suburbs

    I can see where you are coming from but have to disagree. Adare and Patrickswell are not suburbs of Limerick and I hope will never become such but they are commuter towns. There is a difference. Think of Adare as similar to say Sallins/Naas, a town in its own right which offers a train service to Dublin. As the train line gets closer to the city it becomes a commuter line. The journey between Sallins and the city centre has limited stops at other towns between it and Dublin but does not stop at every commuter stop. The Adare line would stop at Patrickswell, Doradoyle and Limerick Colbert. A commuter line to Doradoyle would have several more stops between it and Colbert.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,110 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    More importantly, how many of the people who wish to attend the Ryder Cup will start their journey in Limerick?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Marcusm wrote: »
    More importantly, how many of the people who wish to attend the Ryder Cup will start their journey in Limerick?

    Well every hotel, guest house, Airbnb room etc in the city will be fully booked, so I'd say thousands.

    Still not enough to reopen a rail line for though.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    cgcsb wrote: »
    having central areas that nobody wants to live in is a problem and promoting 15km+ commutes to facilitate people not living in them is not a solution. We've been through this in Ireland and across the western world many times before.

    I wasn't suggesting that people should live in Adare and commute. I was pointing out that the prices you quoted were flawed and Limerick isn't as cheap to live in as you were saying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Limerick doesn’t have to be the starting point of the rail journey. You could
    A) transfer from an intercity service at Colbert
    B) have a through service from Dublin

    Both of these options would generate high levels of patronage given the stress free nature of using public transport to get to major events and the significant amount of traffic the event will create.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,110 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Killarney is 60 miles from Adare with hundred of 4&5 star hotel rooms with spa, conference & golf facilities. It’s likely to provide a lot of the rooms - the facilities when compared to Limerick plus the existing tour group connections will swing it Kerry’s way!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    LMATS should include some provision for a commuter rail system in Limerick, it's long overdue


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Killarney is 60 miles from Adare with hundred of 4&5 star hotel rooms with spa, conference & golf facilities. It’s likely to provide a lot of the rooms - the facilities when compared to Limerick plus the existing tour group connections will swing it Kerry’s way!


    Veering off topic I know, but.......

    Killarney is 60 miles and hour from Adare, Limerick is 10 miles and 10 minutes from Adare. There are 250K visitors expected. Most won't be staying at 4 and 5 star hotels. If you honestly think that every hotel room in Limerick won't be booked out during that week, then you're deluded. And not just Limerick, but there won't be a hotel room available in Clare either.

    Yes I'm sure due to lack of availability close to the venue places like Killarney will do very well, but the majority of visitors will either start their journeys in Limerick or pass through Limerick to get to Adare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    Asking for everyone else... how is this still being discussed a week and a half after the initial post? I'm going to start an equally unrealistic thread which proposes the building of a Maglev system from Connolly to Derry's Waterside Station, the pro's and con's of which can be discussed at length.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,768 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Both of these options would generate high levels of patronage given the stress free nature of using public transport to get to major events and the significant amount of traffic the event will create.

    After using public transport to get to several rural concerts and reading reports of people attending concerts in some parts of Dublin using public transport is not a stress free way to travel to major events in this country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    ncounties wrote: »
    Asking for everyone else... how is this still being discussed a week and a half after the initial post? I'm going to start an equally unrealistic thread which proposes the building of a Maglev system from Connolly to Derry's Waterside Station, the pro's and con's of which can be discussed at length.

    What’s unrealistic about reopening 15km of disused railway between a reasonable sized village and a regional city for an international sporting event with potential for future commuter use?
    Comparing it to a maglev between Dublin and a city 200km away which currently isn’t even in the same jurisdiction and even if it was would only be the 5th largest city is nonsense.
    If you can point out a similar sized public transport investment (between 150-200m) which would have the same benefits as this then I will agree that it is not sensible but until then there is merit in discussing the idea. And before people start suggesting projects such as Navan rail line or Dart underground, these are a multiple of the scale and price of this project and building this would have no impact on either of these going ahead.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,803 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    ncounties wrote: »
    Asking for everyone else... how is this still being discussed a week and a half after the initial post? I'm going to start an equally unrealistic thread which proposes the building of a Maglev system from Connolly to Derry's Waterside Station, the pro's and con's of which can be discussed at length.

    Where will it connect with Metrowest?


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Del2005 wrote: »
    After using public transport to get to several rural concerts and reading reports of people attending concerts in some parts of Dublin using public transport is not a stress free way to travel to major events in this country.

    And travelling by car is? I can give similar anecdotes of people using public transport to get to a certain festival over the weekend who had zero problems with traffic while the news featured several reports of people in CARS stuck in traffic for several hours.
    I can also guarantee there will be huge delays at the Adare pro am next year given the lack of a bypass and poor public transport.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Last Stop wrote: »
    What’s unrealistic about reopening 15km of disused railway between a reasonable sized village and a regional city for an international sporting event with potential for future commuter use?

    It's unrealistic because it falls into a category so far down the list of priorities for this country, that it's generally regarded as a joke project.

    Something akin to the WRC basically

    Now, if you want to discuss realistic rail infrastructure that badly needs improvement to reduce journey times, costs and increase frequency, then lash ahead, you'll find a lot of support for realistic measures


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    ncounties wrote: »
    If we are going for sensible ideas, of which the Adare line, nor the Maglev train are, extending the rail line from M3 Parkway to Dunshaughlin would be the obvious choice. 10km of disused railway, a growing commuter town, capital city. Perfect equation. However, based on your rational that spending 150-200m on a railway line to Adare is perfectly normal, then I am sure it would be super easy to get the rest of the funds for the line out to Navan.

    Disclaimer - I'm not from Navan or Dunshaughlin, nor do I have any need for a service to these locations as I live in East Wall.

    Navan to Pace is 30km so double the length/price of the Adare line meaning you’re incorrect to justify it based on “my rationale” as by doubling the price, you push this project from potentially feasible to too expensive.
    I am 100% supportive of the Navan rail line however as I have said, it’s not a case of this or that.
    While I can see your logic in extending the line to Dunshaughlin, I don’t see this happening as Dunshaughlin isn’t that big a town to justify a rail line on its own (Adare line would serve suburbs of Limerick) and the pace M3 car park is currently under-utilised given its capacity.

    If I was to use your logic for justifying Dunshaughlin I woulda say: 15km of disused railway line, a village with room to grow and car dependant suburbs, regional city. Arguably a similarly perfect equation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    DaCor wrote: »
    It's unrealistic because it falls into a category so far down the list of priorities for this country, that it's generally regarded as a joke project.

    Something akin to the WRC basically

    Now, if you want to discuss realistic rail infrastructure that badly needs improvement to reduce journey times, costs and increase frequency, then lash ahead, you'll find a lot of support for realistic measures

    Again point me to a similar project which would offer the same benefits? The likes of the Dart electrification etc are all of course warranted but in a complete different level to this project (roughly 10x the price).


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Again point me to a similar project which would offer the same benefits? The likes of the Dart electrification etc are all of course warranted but in a complete different level to this project (roughly 10x the price).

    Here's where the idea falls down. It doesn't just get assessed based on the benefits but the costs too.

    The resulting cost / benefit analysis determines whether the project will be added to the list for funding and what ranking priority on said list it will occupy.

    If it gets that far, you move through the many steps to get a finalised idea. Then you're into public consultation. After that's done it's on to planning permission, the inevitable objections, the resulting decision, the appeals etc etc.

    Let's say you get that far, now you just need to sit and wait for the cabinet to sign off on funding. And you'll wait and wait.

    Then you get the funds, now you tender for contractors,choose one and agree a schedule.

    Then the building starts, the route is completed and you're ready to go.

    Simply put, THIS project, THIS time frame, it's just not going to happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Sligo eye


    DaCor wrote: »
    Here's where the idea falls down. It doesn't just get assessed based on the benefits but the costs too.

    The resulting cost / benefit analysis determines whether the project will be added to the list for funding and what ranking priority on said list it will occupy.

    If it gets that far, you move through the many steps to get a finalised idea. Then you're into public consultation. After that's done it's on to planning permission, the inevitable objections, the resulting decision, the appeals etc etc.

    Let's say you get that far, now you just need to sit and wait for the cabinet to sign off on funding. And you'll wait and wait.

    Then you get the funds, now you tender for contractors,choose one and agree a schedule.

    Then the building starts, the route is completed and you're ready to go.

    Simply put, THIS project, THIS time frame, it's just not going to happen.

    Last Stop sadly many Irish keyboard warriors spend a lot of their time trying to keep everything in Ireland exactly as it is. Poor infrastructure and poor rail services intended to keep the populace in cars.

    Fortunately a few of us see beyond the National car fetish and realise we can’t continue as we are. Send me a PM and we can talk further.


  • Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Last Stop sadly many Irish keyboard warriors spend a lot of their time trying to keep everything in Ireland exactly as it is. Poor infrastructure and poor rail services intended to keep the populace in cars.

    Fortunately a few of us see beyond the National car fetish and realise we can’t continue as we are. Send me a PM and we can talk further.

    I think the majority of the posters in this forum would be overwhelmingly pro car alternatives in most cases, however they are also two things, pragmatic, and realistic. This idea falls down for two reasons.

    1. Pragmatic: Adare is too far from Limerick to justify a 'commuter' train, reopening the line as far as the end of the Limerick suburbs as a 'LART' would stand a far better case. Unlike Foynes there isn't really any freight opportunity to bolster the case.

    2. Realistic: The government at present is really not particularly pro-PT outside of Dublin, and even there relatively lukewarm, selling this to them would be extremely tough and wont happen within the timescale that it will be ready for the ryder cup

    I'm strongly pro-rail (and pro greenway). I wouldn't reopen this line unless there was a good business case, which doesn't seem to exist.
    Personally I would want any railway scheme to focus on two things, suburban rail/metro services for the main cities, and 'relatively' high speed rail for intercities, along with fare subsidies to encourage use. Getting Cork-Dublin-Belfast to under 3 hours would revolutionise how things are done in Ireland, as would, say Cork-Limerick in 30-40 minutes and Dublin - Galway in an hour


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Sligo eye wrote: »
    Last Stop sadly many Irish keyboard warriors spend a lot of their time trying to keep everything in Ireland exactly as it is. Poor infrastructure and poor rail services intended to keep the populace in cars.

    Fortunately a few of us see beyond the National car fetish and realise we can’t continue as we are. Send me a PM and we can talk further.

    encouraging people to live in Adare and commute to Limerick for work as a matter of policy is not pro-sustainability. The entire population of the state could comfortably fit inside the M50, extending commuter rail lines way outside urban areas isnt a sustainable solution, nor is building commuter motorways like the M3


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  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    DaCor wrote: »
    Here's where the idea falls down. It doesn't just get assessed based on the benefits but the costs too.

    The resulting cost / benefit analysis determines whether the project will be added to the list for funding and what ranking priority on said list it will occupy.

    If it gets that far, you move through the many steps to get a finalised idea. Then you're into public consultation. After that's done it's on to planning permission, the inevitable objections, the resulting decision, the appeals etc etc.

    Let's say you get that far, now you just need to sit and wait for the cabinet to sign off on funding. And you'll wait and wait.

    Then you get the funds, now you tender for contractors,choose one and agree a schedule.

    Then the building starts, the route is completed and you're ready to go.

    Simply put, THIS project, THIS time frame, it's just not going to happen.

    I’m well aware of the project appraisal process.
    However I do not agree with your assertion along with others on here that this is not possible due to the timeframe.
    It’s 7 years away, it’s 15km of disused railway line. You’d practically build a metro line in that time.
    If we want a breakdown of the time frame, I’d suggest:
    12-18 months design including a public consultation period. (Remember there is no route selection required here as the route is fixed)
    12 months with An Bord Pleanala
    2 years construction.

    That gives you a time frame of 4-4.5 years. Even adding in the delay in getting it through cabinet and you can defo get this done within the time frame.

    You have also forgotten to mention that certain projects can be fast tracked up the list (for a variety of reasons) if the political will is there. The Adare road bypass is a perfect example of this. No one is suggesting that that won’t be completed on time despite it being a far more difficult project in terms of CPO required etc.


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