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Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    donvito99 wrote: »
    The subvention is €761.60 per passenger as of two years ago.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-routes-3570004-Aug2017/

    This is an absolute scandal and you are calling for an increase in frequency to make a useless alignment less useless.


    Yes, I see that, but I wonder how the figure was arrived at? I also wonder what CIE are going to do to improve the situation now that the threat of immediate closure as died away? I also wonder what CIE are going to do when they run out of things to close and still manage to lose a fortune?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    I'm sure passengers on the Longford, Portlaoise, Dundalk and Gorey commuter services, rammed into trains, are delighted to know that there is a empty 2800 class bouncing up and down between Ballybrophy and Lmk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I'm sure passengers on the Longford, Portlaoise, Dundalk and Gorey commuter services, rammed into trains, are delighted to know that there is a empty 2800 class bouncing up and down between Ballybrophy and Lmk.


    Yes it would make such a difference to their level of service and if they took the remaining stock from other deliberately run-down lines just think.....:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Can you actually support the deliberately run down bit? I've heard this said about the South Wexford line also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Can you actually support the deliberately run down bit? I've heard this said about the South Wexford line also.


    My own personal experience of the deliberate run-down of a service by tinkering with the timetable to no purpose was when I lived in Cahir, Co.Tipperary. By retiming the sole train in the Down (Waterford) direction by a few minutes the onward connection to Dublin was removed. It took the intervention of two local politicians egged on by yours truly to get the connection reinstated. Sadly, both both politicians - Theresa Aherne and the then Ceann Comhairle, Sean Treacy - are since deceased and cannot back me up. I probably have the correspondence still but I can't be arsed turning the place upside down to look for it.

    Incidentally, it was regular stock in trade to not be told at Heuston about being able to change at Limerick Junction for Cahir, Clonmel etc. And, the onboard announcements rarely mentioned the Waterford line connections at Limerick Junction. The factual accounts of the messing about with the Waterford/Rosslare service are legion and well documented on Boards.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    donvito99 wrote: »
    The subvention is €761.60 per passenger as of two years ago.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-routes-3570004-Aug2017/

    This is an absolute scandal and you are calling for an increase in frequency to make a useless alignment less useless.


    I am certain that the only reason the patronage is so low is that the service quality is much lower than almost every other railway in the country.
    The latest Heavy Rail Census shows that Roscrea(population 5000) was used by 14 passengers on census day.
    Ballinasloe(population 6000, only slightly bigger than Roscrea) was used by 470 passengers on census day.
    That is a big difference.
    They obviously wouldn't have equally busy train stations per capita, but I think it is reasonable to believe that the big difference is mostly because Ballinasloe has a much faster, much more frequent train service than Roscrea does.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I'm sure passengers on the Longford, Portlaoise, Dundalk and Gorey commuter services, rammed into trains, are delighted to know that there is a empty 2800 class bouncing up and down between Ballybrophy and Lmk.


    Bit harsh to be fair as the Limerick to Nenagh services would be crammed if run and marketed properly. In some ways that route is the Phoenix Park Tunnel line of the west.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    MrAbyss wrote: »
    Bit harsh to be fair as the Limerick to Nenagh services would be crammed if run and marketed properly. In some ways that route is the Phoenix Park Tunnel line of the west.

    They would in their ****, if people can get there quicker by road they will. How many people on that line are working and living close enough to both train stations to justify a train between the 2, I'd say a hundred or two at best.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,890 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    They would in their ****, if people can get there quicker by road they will. How many people on that line are working and living close enough to both train stations to justify a train between the 2, I'd say a hundred or two at best.

    This might shock you to your core but trains, when done well, are way faster and more convenient than driving.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    They would in their ****, if people can get there quicker by road they will. How many people on that line are working and living close enough to both train stations to justify a train between the 2, I'd say a hundred or two at best.


    The train from Nenagh arrives in Limerick at 8:45. It leaves Limerick at 16:55. It's no use to anyone working in Limerick as it arrives too late and leaves too early. It's also missing out on people in Castleconnell. Change the times so it arrives before 8am and leaves after 17:30 and you will increase ridership.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The train from Nenagh arrives in Limerick at 8:45. It leaves Limerick at 16:55. It's no use to anyone working in Limerick as it arrives too late and leaves too early. It's also missing out on people in Castleconnell. Change the times so it arrives before 8am and leaves after 17:30 and you will increase ridership.

    Fine for grannies for their bit of shopping, and students perhaps, utterly useless for commuting.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    spacetweek wrote: »
    This might shock you to your core but trains, when done well, are way faster and more convenient than driving.

    In reality, trains in rural areas are almost always far slower then cars door to door and far less convenient. They simply can't compete in rural areas.

    Trains can be faster into and around large and dense cities, due to how bad traffic congestion is, this is where they excel and where or focus should be.

    No point in talking about high speed rail, no one is going to spend the billions it costs for towns of a few hundred and even a few thousand. You need cities with more then a million at both ends to justify that.

    Rural rail really doesn't make much sense in our modern world of almost everyone in rural parts having cars and nice motorways to drive them on.

    This sort of talk is a distraction where we badly need to be focusing our public transport investment metros, luas, dart, commuter rail, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    The train from Nenagh arrives in Limerick at 8:45. It leaves Limerick at 16:55. It's no use to anyone working in Limerick as it arrives too late and leaves too early. It's also missing out on people in Castleconnell. Change the times so it arrives before 8am and leaves after 17:30 and you will increase ridership.

    You are still relying on enough people living and working close to each station before it is useful. I doubt the demand is there.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    bk wrote: »
    Rural rail really doesn't make much sense in our modern world of almost everyone in rural parts having cars and nice motorways to drive them on.

    This sort of talk is a distraction where we badly need to be focusing our public transport investment metros, luas, dart, commuter rail, etc.




    Limerick is not a village. I agree with the main need for investment, but a decent Nenagh to Limerick direct morning and evening service would be successful.

    As for distractions, the PPT route was once considered a distraction from the Interconnector. It is now an integral part of the Metrolink at Glasnevin.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    MrAbyss wrote: »
    Limerick is not a village. I agree with the main need for investment, but a decent Nenagh to Limerick direct morning and evening service would be successful.

    I was talking in a general sense. But to be brutally honest, and as a Corkonian it kills me to say it, but we really have only one city of any half decent scale.

    Limerick, Cork, etc. would be considered just large towns in most other countries.

    Cities in Brazil have tens of millions of people and not a single intercity rail service running, not that that is a good thing, but it makes you realise how small scale we are here in Ireland.
    MrAbyss wrote: »
    As for distractions, the PPT route was once considered a distraction from the Interconnector. It is now an integral part of the Metrolink at Glasnevin.

    PPT was never a distraction! We all knew it was an excellent option. Irish Rail just didn't want to admit it as it greatly weakens the business case for Dart Underground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    bk wrote: »
    I was talking in a general sense. But to be brutally honest, and as a Corkonian it kills me to say it, but we really have only one city of any half decent scale.

    Limerick, Cork, etc. would be considered just large towns in most other countries.

    Cities in Brazil have tens of millions of people and not a single intercity rail service running, not that that is a good thing, but it makes you realise how small scale we are here in Ireland.



    PPT was never a distraction! We all knew it was an excellent option. Irish Rail just didn't want to admit it as it greatly weakens the business case for Dart Underground.

    It only seems to weaken the case for Dart Underground in the minds of people who just don't see the point of a large infrastructure project basically going into the hands of CIE. The NTA board themselves, I remind you, felt that Dart Underground ought to be the defining infrastructure project for Dublin in the now-current National Development Plan and that was in tandem with the PPT already being operational. Saying that it "greatly weakens the business case" sorta makes PPT a distraction by definition, or am I missing something?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It only seems to weaken the case for Dart Underground in the minds of people who just don't see the point of a large infrastructure project basically going into the hands of CIE. The NTA board themselves, I remind you, felt that Dart Underground ought to be the defining infrastructure project for Dublin in the now-current National Development Plan and that was in tandem with the PPT already being operational. Saying that it "greatly weakens the business case" sorta makes PPT a distraction by definition, or am I missing something?

    Please link me to the NTA Board saying that DART Underground is the defining infrastructure project for Dublin?!!!

    The current development plan has Metrolink and Dart Expansion as the two important plans happening now. DU was clearly at best long fingered out to, "ah we will think about it, eventually, when everything else more important is done, maybe".

    I absolutely agree that DU needs to happen eventually. But now it doesn't need to happen as soon as PPT gives us a lot of what it offered, specially once it is all linked up with Metrolink.

    I don't think you can call something a distraction when it delivers you a great deal of benefit and improvement in service at a fraction of the cost of DU. It is more of a case of grabbing the low hanging fruit. And Dart Expansion is more of that, prioritising the maximum bang for the buck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    bk wrote: »
    Please link me to the NTA Board saying that DART Underground is the defining infrastructure project for Dublin?!!!

    The current development plan has Metrolink and Dart Expansion as the two important plans happening now. DU was clearly at best long fingered out to, "ah we will think about it, eventually, when everything else more important is done, maybe".

    I absolutely agree that DU needs to happen eventually. But now it doesn't need to happen as soon as PPT gives us a lot of what it offered, specially once it is all linked up with Metrolink.

    I don't think you can call something a distraction when it delivers you a great deal of benefit and improvement in service at a fraction of the cost of DU. It is more of a case of grabbing the low hanging fruit. And Dart Expansion is more of that, prioritising the maximum bang for the buck.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/transport-authority-board-did-not-review-government-metro-announcement-1.3445850

    That alone shows the situation in reality is not how it's being portrayed here. And Dart Expansion is sort of a red herring without the likes of triple-tracking howth junction or clongriffin to Connolly. Based on peak time movements of trains etc and the relatively short distance involved, and mix of services, triple-tracking would bring most of the benefits of quad-tracking at a far lower cost. I remember estimates a while back for 3-track at like €250 million vs 4-track at €800 million?


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    bk wrote: »
    Please link me to the NTA Board saying that DART Underground is the defining infrastructure project for Dublin?!!!

    While not a direct source to the above, the GDA strategy modelling sees DU as so critical it includes it in its do minimum strategy and takes it as a given that it will be built before 2035.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk



    Huh?! That article says:
    Minutes just published of a recent NTA board meeting also appear to show support at the board for the Dart Underground project, funding for which was not included in the the recent 10-year Government programme.
    Funding for the the Dart Underground – a 7.6km underground tunnel between Heuston and Pearse stations with a number of new underground stations – is not included up to 2027 in the new Government programme, though significant other Dart developments – including some which were part of the underground plan – are included.

    Doesn't sound like the defining project to me at all!

    They "support" it, of course they do, I never claimed otherwise. It will eventually happen, but it definitely isn't the "defining" project. If it was it would have been included in the current 10 year plan.

    Instead you get wishy washy talk like "developments which are being undertaken must be designed so as not to preclude the future development of the Dart Underground project."

    Read between the lines, it isn't included in the current 10 year plan, it is going to need to be redesigned, they say they "support" it, but without actually putting forward any firm plans, no timelines, no budget, no rail order. "support it" is just official speak for it not happening any time soon.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think it will eventually happen and yes it should happen. Just don't hold your breath for it.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    as a sideline the Nenagh line is currently being relaid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    MrAbyss wrote: »
    as a sideline the Nenagh line is currently being relaid.


    Only a small length and to what purpose one might ask. The service is already regularly substituted by a bus - a sure way of discouraging passengers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Only a small length and to what purpose one might ask. The service is already regularly substituted by a bus - a sure way of discouraging passengers.

    Sure if there's 60 users a day, they only need a bus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Sure if there's 60 users a day, they only need a bus.


    And if the DART was operated in the same way we would need fleets of new buses and car congestion would bring the city to a standstill as people abandoned the railway. What's your point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    And if the DART was operated in the same way we would need fleets of new buses and car congestion would bring the city to a standstill as people abandoned the railway. What's your point?

    Are you seriously comparing the DART with the Ballybrophy Branch?

    Should we replace all bus services in the country with inordinately expensive to build and operate heavy railway lines?


  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ncounties


    Suggestion - perhaps this thread should be renamed Limerick Commuter Rail.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Are you seriously comparing the DART with the Ballybrophy Branch?

    Should we replace all bus services in the country with inordinately expensive to build and operate heavy railway lines?


    Absolutely, we should have an electrified 5 minute service on the Nenagh branch. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    ncounties wrote: »
    Suggestion - perhaps this thread should be renamed Limerick Commuter Rail.

    Might be merit in such a thread yep.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Are you seriously comparing the DART with the Ballybrophy Branch?

    Should we replace all bus services in the country with inordinately expensive to build and operate heavy railway lines?

    I set up a thread specifically for the Limerick - Ballybrophy railway, where we can continue the debate about it.

    Here's the link to it:
    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058029695/1/#post111737079


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Why not ask JP if he wants to build a rail line to Adare, tell him he can do it as a PPP.

    I can't see him biting...


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