Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Sanjuro · 25-11-2020 12:34pm

shootermacg wrote: »

I would be happy if Ireland added a pick and jam to their game. It was way to easy for England to just target our midfield.

Pick and jam was all we did in the English 22 and it got us nothing.

arsebiscuits1 · 25-11-2020 1:34pm

Sanjuro wrote: »

Pick and jam was all we did in the English 22 and it got us nothing.

Much more different in the 22 though as the opposition can potentially have 15 men in the defensive line.

From half way to opposition 22, a lot of teams employ pick and jams because you can potentially burn 2 opposition players each ruck and they'd likely have another 2 in the backfield so it's more effective to find gaps and soft shoulders.

Ireland rarely use this approach

CMcsporty · 25-11-2020 2:35pm

bilston wrote: »

Team announcement today, or tomorrow because it is a Sunday game?

Tuesday for Sat games.
Should have been today.
Farrell in disarray after Saturday!

Ryan is going to be captain again anyway

Former Former Former · 25-11-2020 4:12pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

Tuesday for Sat games.
Should have been today.

There is no set time for when the team is to be announced.

Most likely he's waiting to see how injuries develop. The front row is in bits.

moritz1234 · 25-11-2020 5:22pm

I think Lowe has shown he's not an international class winger. Overweight and too slow

yoursaviour1989 · 25-11-2020 5:24pm

moritz1234 wrote: »

I think Lowe has shown he's not an international class winger. Overweight and too slow

Thanks Chris Ashton

CMcsporty · 25-11-2020 5:59pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

There is no set time for when the team is to be announced.

Most likely he's waiting to see how injuries develop. The front row is in bits.

I wasnt serious! remember all the hullabaloo about Farrell naming the team early?

Who are the loosheads in the squads.
O'Sullivan, Healy & ? Is Bealham covering loose?

leakyboots · 25-11-2020 6:15pm

moritz1234 wrote: »

I think Lowe has shown he's not an international class winger. Overweight and too slow

Bit quick on the draw there after a couple of games, he's shown enough to warrant further looking at. That chase back was abysmal and some of his kicking has been suspect, but he's a powerful attacker out wide and a good man to offload, I wouldn't be writing him off yet.

I'm curious about the calls to move CJ to 6 for Doris on here - CJ has consistently shown his worth at 8, I don't know does Doris give us more there compared to what CJ does and if CJ is our best candidate at 6. Maybe give them a few games I guess

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2020 8:05pm

https://www.the42.ie/stuart-mccloskey-ireland-georgia-5278219-Nov2020/

Big Stu playing anyway.

Richie_Rich89 · 25-11-2020 8:32pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Bit quick on the draw there after a couple of games, he's shown enough to warrant further looking at. That chase back was abysmal and some of his kicking has been suspect, but he's a powerful attacker out wide and a good man to offload, I wouldn't be writing him off yet.

I'm curious about the calls to move CJ to 6 for Doris on here - CJ has consistently shown his worth at 8, I don't know does Doris give us more there compared to what CJ does and if CJ is our best candidate at 6. Maybe give them a few games I guess

Stander was good at 6 back when Heaslip was playing, and Doris seems to play better at 8 than at 6.

Richie_Rich89 · 25-11-2020 8:44pm

I'm seeing some talk about the lineout issues. How can you hope to have a really good lineout without a master caller/jumper playing? Roux and Henderson and Ryan can and do call lineouts, but none of them are noted callers/jumpers. For a long time Ireland had O'Connell and then Toner. Is the value of a really good caller/jumper not being recognised enough at the moment? Personally, I'd like to see Thornbury more involved. He's good in the lineout. Trouble is he's quite injury-prone. The others should focus more on tighthead lock, imo, if they can bring enough weight to the role to complement a jumper lock, or, if playing th lock doesn't suit them, focus on blindside at international level.

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2020 8:52pm

In fairness, Henderson is the go-to Irish lineout caller, has been since Toner stopped featuring. It's just that he has been injured a bit. I'm not sure what a "noted line-out caller" is? Do Scotland have one? France?

And Ryan is our TH lock - for all everyone was talking about Roux adding ballast and helping Porter, he played at 4.

Skyfloater · 25-11-2020 8:52pm

The RTE podcast on the Ireland England game is up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTGPLpqGq_I

Richie_Rich89 · 25-11-2020 8:56pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

In fairness, Henderson is the go-to Irish lineout caller, has been since Toner stopped featuring. It's just that he has been injured a bit. I'm not sure what a "noted line-out caller" is? Do Scotland have one? France?

And Ryan is our TH lock - for all everyone was talking about Roux adding ballast and helping Porter, he played at 4.

Someone who is a standout in terms of how good he is at doing it.

4 is tighthead lock in a lot of places, like South Africa.

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2020 8:58pm

Well a) we don't a have a standout then, and you have to learn to do it and get experience and b) Ryan was packing down behind Porter.

shootermacg · 25-11-2020 8:58pm

Beirne is a good lineout caller at Munster.

Richie_Rich89 · 25-11-2020 9:14pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well a) we don't a have a standout then, and you have to learn to do it and get experience and b) Ryan was packing down behind Porter.

He was? I didn't pick up on that.

Bazzo · 25-11-2020 9:14pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

In fairness, Henderson is the go-to Irish lineout caller, has been since Toner stopped featuring. It's just that he has been injured a bit. I'm not sure what a "noted line-out caller" is? Do Scotland have one? France?

And Ryan is our TH lock - for all everyone was talking about Roux adding ballast and helping Porter, he played at 4.

Roux scrummaged on the tight head side even though he was wearing 4.

UAEguy2020 · 25-11-2020 9:14pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I'm seeing some talk about the lineout issues. How can you hope to have a really good lineout without a master caller/jumper playing? Roux and Henderson and Ryan can and do call lineouts, but none of them are noted callers/jumpers. For a long time Ireland had O'Connell and then Toner. Is the value of a really good caller/jumper not being recognised enough at the moment? Personally, I'd like to see Thornbury more involved. He's good in the lineout. Trouble is he's quite injury-prone. The others should focus more on tighthead lock, imo, if they can bring enough weight to the role to complement a jumper lock, or, if playing th lock doesn't suit them, focus on blindside at international level.

Our lineout was pretty inconsistent even when Toner was playing. The lineout performance on Saturday was below standard for any level of the game and not for the first time.

TRC10 · 25-11-2020 9:14pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

In fairness, Henderson is the go-to Irish lineout caller, has been since Toner stopped featuring. It's just that he has been injured a bit. I'm not sure what a "noted line-out caller" is? Do Scotland have one? France?

And Ryan is our TH lock - for all everyone was talking about Roux adding ballast and helping Porter, he played at 4.

He wore 4 but if you watch the game Roux scrummaged behind Porter

Paul Weller · 25-11-2020 9:31pm

Possibly a cardable offence on my part.... But Chris Ashton isn't a huge Lowe fan it seems
https://rugbylad.ie/england-winger-launches-absolutely-scathing-attack-irelands-james-lowe/

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2020 10:15pm

Bazzo wrote: »

Roux scrummaged on the tight head side even though he was wearing 4.

I double-checked, having noticed the numbers weren't what I expected, and thought he was packing down at LH. But t I could well have been wrong.

Bazzo · 25-11-2020 11:11pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I double-checked, having noticed the numbers weren't what I expected, and thought he was packing down at LH. But t I could well have been wrong.

No, he definitely packed down at tighthead

aloooof · 25-11-2020 11:13pm

Shane Horgan has been pretty critical of Andy Farrell, Ross Byrne and James Lowe on Second Captains. Especially Farrell, says he doesn’t see how he’ll improve the situation.

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2020 11:33pm

Bazzo wrote: »

No, he definitely packed down at tighthead

Fair enough.

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2020 11:34pm

aloooof wrote: »

Shane Horgan has been pretty critical of Andy Farrell, Ross Byrne and James Lowe on Second Captains. Especially Farrell, says he doesn’t see how he’ll improve the situation.

D'you've a link?

Ah you've to pay - Never mind.

Iamabeliever · 26-11-2020 12:08am

Massive fan of Stuart McCloskey. Love to see him do well in a settled team. Always hitting big numbers in carries and tackles for ulster And Aki has underperformed since he got into this Ireland campfor whatever reason. This may be out of the blue but I wouldn’t mind seeing him partnered up with earls at 13

26-11-2020 12:09am

Iamabeliever wrote: »

Massive fan of Stuart McCloskey. Love to see him do well in a settled team. Always hitting big numbers in carries and tackles for ulster. Aki has underperformed since he got in the Ireland set up for whatever reason. This may be out of the blue but I wouldn’t mind seeing him partnered up with earls at 13

Why would you even bring earls at 13 up

TRC10 · 26-11-2020 12:15am

Iamabeliever wrote: »

Massive fan of Stuart McCloskey. Love to see him do well in a settled team. Always hitting big numbers in carries and tackles for ulster And Aki has underperformed since he got in the Ireland set up for whatever reason. This may be out of the blue but I wouldn’t mind seeing him partnered up with earls at 13

How has Aki underperformed??? He was phenomenal in all 5 grand slam games and v the All Blacks that year. And has been one of our most consistent and reliable players since. And why play a 34 year old out of position in the position we have the most strength in depth?

Iamabeliever · 26-11-2020 12:26am

TRC10 wrote: »

How has Aki underperformed??? He was phenomenal in all 5 grand slam games and v the All Blacks that year. And has been one of our most consistent and reliable players since. And why play a 34 year old out of position in the position we have the most strength in depth?

Aki has Underperformed during this current Ireland camp.
I just think for the Georgia game earls and mccloskey “little and large” would cause havoc. (I don’t really care about the ball getting out to the wingers) And the other alternative is Farrell and I just don’t think mcclockey and Farrell would jell going by the Fiji performance.

Iamabeliever · 26-11-2020 12:27am

Kamila Careful Trachea wrote: »

Why would you even bring earls at 13 up

Earls in space is a sight to behold. I think the aforementioned mccloskey will provide the space!

The Lost Sheep · 26-11-2020 12:28am

Iamabeliever wrote: »

Aki has Underperformed during this current Ireland camp.
I just think for the Georgia game earls and mccloskey “little and large” would cause havoc. (I don’t really care about the ball getting out to the wingers) And the other alternative is Farrell and I just don’t think mcclockey and Farrell would jell going by the Fiji performance.

You dont care about ball going to wingers??
Earls isnt going to be playing in the centre. That stopped bar emergencies years ago.

TRC10 · 26-11-2020 12:30am

Iamabeliever wrote: »

Earls in space is a sight to behold. I think the aforementioned mccloskey will provide the space!

We've been down this road more times than I care to remember. Keith Earls is not a test quality 13. What is the point in playing him there in the swansong of his career against Georgia in a nothing tournament?

Iamabeliever · 26-11-2020 12:41am

TRC10 wrote: »

We've been down this road more times than I care to remember. Keith Earls is not a test quality 13. What is the point in playing him there in the swansong of his career against Georgia in a nothing tournament?

I wouldn’t give two ):@;!! If earls played Sunday and never played for Ireland again. I’m only coming up with this combination so that it will give mccloskey the best platform to show what he can do attack wise. My ideal combo would be Ringrose but he’s injured. Plus earls is a seasoned campaigner with nothing to prove. Also Farrell is soooooo far from a test 13, he offers energy and work rate !

TRC10 · 26-11-2020 12:47am

Iamabeliever wrote: »

I wouldn’t give two ):@;!! If earls played Sunday and never played for Ireland again. I’m only coming up with this combination so that it will give mccloskey the best platform to show what he can do attack wise. My ideal combo would be Ringrose but he’s injured. Plus earls is a seasoned campaigner with nothing to prove. Also Farrell is soooooo far from a test 13, he offers energy and work rate !

Is this the Farrell who was one of the only Ireland players to regularly get over the gainline against England last week?

Iamabeliever · 26-11-2020 12:52am

TRC10 wrote: »

Is this the Farrell who was one of the only Ireland players to regularly get over the gainline against England last week?

And that makes a test 13? Don’t think he kicked the ball once? He needs to do a lot more to be compared to Ringrose and Henshaw.

TRC10 · 26-11-2020 12:54am

Iamabeliever wrote: »

And that makes a test 13? Don’t think he kicked the ball once? He needs to do a look more to be compared to Ringrose and Henshaw.

So not kicking the ball makes you not a test 13 now? Ok I guess Manu Tuilagi isnt a test 13 then...or Vakatawa.

Ardillaun · 26-11-2020 1:20am

Paul Weller wrote: »

Possibly a cardable offence on my part.... But Chris Ashton isn't a huge Lowe fan it seems
https://rugbylad.ie/england-winger-launches-absolutely-scathing-attack-irelands-james-lowe/

Lowe did jog rather leisurely back after May but I'd keep him on the team for a while yet, which leaves us with a Stockdale conundrum. Dare I suggest 15 again? (He'll always have Paris.) Earls seemed eager enough to earn another outing. I'd also start Farrell and Burns. Murray improved things after he came on but I still find myself shouting hurry up at the telly when he's pausing too long. Not sure about Aki.

Ardillaun · 26-11-2020 1:25am

TRC10 wrote: »

So not kicking the ball makes you not a test 13 now? Ok I guess Manu Tuilagi isnt a test 13 then...or Vakatawa.

They're exceptional players. Nonetheless, more kicking options would help us right across the team. What we're doing isn't working against quality opposition.

TRC10 · 26-11-2020 1:34am

Ardillaun wrote: »

They're exceptional players. Nonetheless, more kicking options would help us right across the team. What we're doing isn't working against quality opposition.

I agree but that wasnt the OPs original point

Buer · 26-11-2020 9:52am

TRC10 wrote: »

Is this the Farrell who was one of the only Ireland players to regularly get over the gainline against England last week?

I've seen this raised a few times. Farrell had several solid carries in the second half when we had our purple patch and were making yards. Outside of that, he struggled with ball in hand. He was repeatedly stopped or knocked back. I'm a huge Farrell fan and he was dealing with terrible attacking alignment but I was still disappointed with his production. Normally, he's so powerful that he can force his way over the gain line even with a defender in his face. He had 15 carries for 17m so he certainly wasn't getting over the gain line with any real success.

His two most memorable moments in the game were negative. He was scorched on the outside by May for the second try and he then failed to ground a ball when he was held up by a guy who is 15kg lighter than him.

Farrell is an excellent player but if he has any ambition to break past the trio of centres ahead of him, he's going to need to take his opportunities far more accurately than he did against England.

CMcsporty · 26-11-2020 11:13am

Ringrose is the only World Class back Ireland has
Farrell on his very best day is never going to take his place

His only competition for 13 is Henshaw.
Using that England game as a barometer for Farrell "taking his opportunities far more accurately" is grossly unfair.
Ireland never got front foot ball and whenever Farrell got the ball the he head defenders never more than 3-5m from him & he was taking it static because of how deep Ireland were been pushed.
I dont know how any back - unless you are Tuilagi - or certainly any Irish back that would make meters in that situation.

Was that the gaem plan? Truck it up? Whatever it was it certainly didnt create any space for Farrell to make gainline.

shootermacg · 26-11-2020 11:37am

CMcsporty wrote: »

Using that England game as a barometer for Farrell "taking his opportunities far more accurately" is grossly unfair.
Ireland never got front foot ball and whenever Farrell got the ball the he head defenders never more than 3-5m from him & he was taking it static because of how deep Ireland were been pushed.

Exactly! Farrell was getting crap ball and did very well to clean it up. That game was proof that a wooden ten can easily lose a game for you.

If RB can look good at Leinster, then you'd have to look at the other Leinster 10s in a new light. Likewise JS has struggled against Teams that aren't being beaten up by his pack.

BB and Carty have had to play behind a poor pack, something the Leinster 10s have very little experience with. There's a good argument for giving them their chance.

UAEguy2020 · 26-11-2020 11:46am

shootermacg wrote: »

Exactly! Farrell was getting crap ball and did very well to clean it up. That game was proof that a wooden ten can easily lose a game for you.

If RB can look good at Leinster, then you'd have to look at the other Leinster 10s in a new light. Likewise JS has struggled against Teams that aren't being beaten up by his pack.

BB and Carty have had to play behind a poor pack, something the Leinster 10s have very little experience with. There's a good argument for giving him his chance.

Funny because the performance at 10 from Byrne is no different to the performance Sexton has served up playing at 10 vs England, only difference is he’s Sexton so doesn’t get picked on as much.

I’m not buying this playing behind dominant pack bull****, if the pack isn’t doninant you play the territory, if you keep doing what you’ve been doing vs England you’ll keep getting what you’ve been getting.

People think SA dominating England physically is what won them the World Cup but what that was built on was beating England at their own kicking game forcing England to have to attack SA which they weren’t comfortable doing, doing so took England out of their comfort zone and had them doubt themselves and once that happened SA started to physically dominate and the rest in history.

In turn, if you can’t beat England up physically you should kick the ball in behind and put them on the back foot like Ireland were doing in the first half until they stopped once the first England try was scored.

aloooof · 26-11-2020 11:58am

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Funny because the performance at 10 from Byrne is no different to the performance Sexton has served up playing at 10 vs England, only difference is he’s Sexton so doesn’t get picked on as much.

Na. Sexton plays notably flatter.

shootermacg · 26-11-2020 12:04pm

There's a good argument for a straight swap with TB replacing Ryan and keeping Roux/Ryan at TH prop. TB is able to run a lineout. I think the balance is currently wrong with Ryan and Roux in the second row.

Buer · 26-11-2020 12:17pm

CMcsporty wrote: »

His only competition for 13 is Henshaw.
Using that England game as a barometer for Farrell "taking his opportunities far more accurately" is grossly unfair.

Is it? He had two specific involvements which led to a try being scored and a try not being scored.

I'm not referencing his general play overall which was a symptom of what was happening inside him. Trucking it up in general play is not something I'm going to hold against him.

Missing a tackle on turnover ball which ends up in a try and failing to ground a ball against a single defender is absolutely on him. Those were two key moments which I'd identify as his opportunities to stand out. Killing an attack on turnover ball and scoring a try would be two key moments on both sides of the ball and, when the game reviews happen, you can be sure they're being looked at.

Iamabeliever · 26-11-2020 12:29pm

Buer wrote: »

Is it? He had two specific involvements which led to a try being scored and a try not being scored.

I'm not referencing his general play overall which was a symptom of what was happening inside him. Trucking it up in general play is not something I'm going to hold against him.

Missing a tackle on turnover ball which ends up in a try and failing to ground a ball against a single defender is absolutely on him. Those were two key moments which I'd identify as his opportunities to stand out. Killing an attack on turnover ball and scoring a try would be two key moments on both sides of the ball and, when the game reviews happen, you can be sure they're being looked at.

May fainted to go inside cause aki left too much of a gap. I would consider that an overall defensive lapse. A quicker man will always win a foot race.

His held up try although frustrating, you can only put it down to a great defensive play. I would also like to highlight Aki was virtually anonymous against England and the first half against France.

TRC10 · 26-11-2020 12:29pm

Buer wrote: »

Is it? He had two specific involvements which led to a try being scored and a try not being scored.

I'm not referencing his general play overall which was a symptom of what was happening inside him. Trucking it up in general play is not something I'm going to hold against him.

Missing a tackle on turnover ball which ends up in a try and failing to ground a ball against a single defender is absolutely on him. Those were two key moments which I'd identify as his opportunities to stand out. Killing an attack on turnover ball and scoring a try would be two key moments on both sides of the ball and, when the game reviews happen, you can be sure they're being looked at.

If you're immediately writing off anyone who has been skinned by Jonny May, then you're writing off a lot of world class players.

Very easy to criticise someone for getting held up but it was excellent defence. Not sure what more he could have done.

Former Former Former · 26-11-2020 12:33pm

TRC10 wrote: »

If you're immediately writing off anyone who has been skinned by Jonny May, then you're writing off a lot of world class players.

He wasn't skinned by him though, Farrell was exactly where he needed to be to make the tackle, he just didn't execute it.

Farrell is a decent player but once either Henshaw or Ringrose is back, he'll be squad depth again, he's just not at the same level.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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