NEW 2020 Assistant Principal Officer Competition

HannahR31 · 20-08-2020 12:01pm

Hard luck to all that didn't make it! Can be hard to know what they're looking for.

I was given my 'total score of' but I can't see in any previous communications what they were marked out of so not sure how well or not I did overall. Did I miss something? Anyone know what the marks available were?

doorbell21 · 20-08-2020 12:02pm

I also failed management experience, again with nearly 10 years experience. I'd love to know how exactly they assess it, but they'll never reveal their secrets! Oh well, see you all again in 2 years. Best of luck to those who do get through to the next stage.

delricyo · 20-08-2020 12:08pm

HannahR31 wrote: »

Hard luck to all that didn't make it! Can be hard to know what they're looking for.

I was given my 'total score of' but I can't see in any previous communications what they were marked out of so not sure how well or not I did overall. Did I miss something? Anyone know what the marks available were?

My message said:
The maximum score in each of the competencies was 100 and the qualifying score in each was 41.

quad_red · 20-08-2020 12:08pm

delricyo wrote: »

Yeah, same with me:(

Same here. Really disappointed.

Monkey5 · 20-08-2020 12:14pm

doorbell21 wrote: »

I also failed management experience, again with nearly 10 years experience. I'd love to know how exactly they assess it, but they'll never reveal their secrets! Oh well, see you all again in 2 years. Best of luck to those who do get through to the next stage.

I have also failed on this basis and I honestly don't understand how already being a manager can be a requirement for promotion to a management position.

I am an AO. I am not getting any management experience and I won't have any in two years time either or 4 years. It is not part of being an AO. How is an AO expected to succeed in the interdepartmental competition? AO are also excluded from HEO competitions despite the fact that there would be a pay increase and the possibility of getting some management experience.

I think this is a matter for the union to raise as it is just unfair.

I honestly think I've had enough of this and will have to start planning my exit from the civil service. It is not just sour grapes from being unsuccessful on this occasion but the fact that it's not going to be any different next time.

moneymaid · 20-08-2020 12:36pm

Question for those that have failed to progress due to lack of management experiece - would you consider appealing your decision?

That seems absolutely insane that with 10 years management experiece you have failed to progress due to "lack of management experience"!

What are they looking for?

StevenToast · 20-08-2020 12:40pm

Monkey5 wrote: »

I have also failed on this basis and I honestly don't understand how already being a manager can be a requirement for promotion to a management position.

I am an AO. I am not getting any management experience and I won't have any in two years time either or 4 years. It is not part of being an AO. How is an AO expected to succeed in the interdepartmental competition? AO are also excluded from HEO competitions despite the fact that there would be a pay increase and the possibility of getting some management experience.

I think this is a matter for the union to raise as it is just unfair.

I honestly think I've had enough of this and will have to start planning my exit from the civil service. It is not just sour grapes from being unsuccessful on this occasion but the fact that it's not going to be any different next time.

Would you like to swap your AO role with mine in a private accounting firm for maybe 10k more?

Id bite your hand off for your AO position...

John Hutton · 20-08-2020 12:47pm

Monkey5 wrote: »

I have also failed on this basis and I honestly don't understand how already being a manager can be a requirement for promotion to a management position.

I am an AO. I am not getting any management experience and I won't have any in two years time either or 4 years. It is not part of being an AO. How is an AO expected to succeed in the interdepartmental competition? AO are also excluded from HEO competitions despite the fact that there would be a pay increase and the possibility of getting some management experience.

I think this is a matter for the union to raise as it is just unfair.

I honestly think I've had enough of this and will have to start planning my exit from the civil service. It is not just sour grapes from being unsuccessful on this occasion but the fact that it's not going to be any different next time.

You need to move. Loads of AOs have staff as they are being used as cheaper HEOs.

Otherwise look to internal competitions.

Chaos Black · 20-08-2020 12:51pm

AO's can also generally say they manage projects and external stakeholders (at least where I am).

You probably have HEO's complaining they don't have enough policy experience.

Also yes, in some department AO's do manage staff.

delricyo · 20-08-2020 12:53pm

Monkey5 wrote: »

I have also failed on this basis and I honestly don't understand how already being a manager can be a requirement for promotion to a management position.

I am an AO. I am not getting any management experience and I won't have any in two years time either or 4 years. It is not part of being an AO. How is an AO expected to succeed in the interdepartmental competition? AO are also excluded from HEO competitions despite the fact that there would be a pay increase and the possibility of getting some management experience.

I think this is a matter for the union to raise as it is just unfair.

I honestly think I've had enough of this and will have to start planning my exit from the civil service. It is not just sour grapes from being unsuccessful on this occasion but the fact that it's not going to be any different next time.

I understand how frustrating it can be. From working with loads of APs over the years, I think I would be a good candidate for one - but seem to fail at management on more than one occasion.

You are 100% right about the AO grade. I always say that if the salaries of AO and HEO were the same, I would take HEO all the time. In theory, AO grades are not supposed to have staff, so they will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to explaining their management experience.

John Hutton · 20-08-2020 12:56pm

delricyo wrote: »

I understand how frustrating it can be. From working with loads of APs over the years, I think I would be a good candidate for one - but seem to fail at management on more than one occasion.

You are 100% right about the AO grade. I always say that if the salaries of AO and HEO were the same, I would take HEO all the time. In theory, AO grades are not supposed to have staff, so they will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to explaining their management experience.

I don't agree, there are bad aspects to both. Lots of HEOs in dead end positions managing admin staff and spend their days looking at KPIs.

If you are an AO you are far more likely to get policy experience.

berocca2016 · 20-08-2020 1:00pm

Is anyone else coming to this competition from a private sector background ?

Chaos Black · 20-08-2020 1:01pm

They should likely be paid the same (AO and HEO) considering the role of AO's these days and that it is not quite the old job of someone getting trained up to progression to AP that it used to be (so I have heard). In my department the official line is that AO's and HEO's are interchangeable for the same roles so no difference in treatment outside of pay.

But that is an argument for another thread.

Monkey5 · 20-08-2020 1:18pm

StevenToast wrote: »

Would you like to swap your AO role with mine in a private accounting firm for maybe 10k more?

Id bite your hand off for your AO position...

You're offering me a 30% pay rise? Yes please.

Monkey5 · 20-08-2020 1:23pm

Chaos Black wrote: »

They should likely be paid the same (AO and HEO) considering the role of AO's these days and that it is not quite the old job of someone getting trained up to progression to AP that it used to be (so I have heard). In my department the official line is that AO's and HEO's are interchangeable for the same roles so no difference in treatment outside of pay.

But that is an argument for another thread.

In my department there are HEOs leading teams in non-policy areas. AOs work only in Policy areas and might "manage" a CO at most.

PhoenixParker · 20-08-2020 1:24pm

Monkey5 wrote: »

You're offering me a 30% pay rise? Yes please.

If 10K is a 30% pay rise, that would suggest you're working for E33K a year, which is the salary for someone brand new in as an AO.

Some options that don't necessitate leaving the civil service:

Take a career break to get the experience, this way you leave the door open to come back and/or get promoted.
Get the experience outside work, involvement at committee level in things like sports clubs, charities, toastmasters can help to close out the necessary experience
Ask for a transfer or sideways move
Keep an eye out for special projects that will get you the necessary competencies
Do a masters or dip that focuses on people management skills

Monkey5 · 20-08-2020 1:40pm

PhoenixParker wrote: »

If 10K is a 30% pay rise, that would suggest you're working for E33K a year, which is the salary for someone brand new in as an AO.

Some options that don't necessitate leaving the civil service:
Take a career break to get the experience, this way you leave the door open to come back and/or get promoted.

Get the experience outside work, involvement at committee level in things like sports clubs, charities, toastmasters can help to close out the necessary experience

Ask for a transfer or sideways move

Keep an eye out for special projects that will get you the necessary competencies

Do a masters or dip that focuses on people management skills

Ok, then a 26% increase. Still pretty good. I am not new as an AO and I have also been a CO and EO and I have some private sector management experience.

"Evidence of management experience, including leading teams, managing operations/projects/ budgets and delivering results" is what they're looking for.

A sideways move won't give that and I've already had my PO refuse to release me for a transfer. Reality is an AO doesn't get management experience.

Bob Cratchit · 20-08-2020 2:38pm

Commiserations to anyone who didn't get through. We've all been there.
For those who did, what's the next stage?

poundhound · 20-08-2020 2:40pm

Remote e-tray exercise next.

StevenToast · 20-08-2020 2:49pm

Monkey5 wrote: »

You're offering me a 30% pay rise? Yes please.

I would gladly take a 10k hit in salary to secure an AO position with Revenue...

In fact I am currently waiting in an endless competition for that exact position!

HannahR31 · 20-08-2020 2:53pm

StevenToast wrote: »

I would gladly take a 10k hit in salary to secure an AO position with Revenue...

In fact I am currently waiting in an endless competition for that exact position!

What about the position attracts you to this extent, may I ask? Is it the job security in the short term and then the hopes of a future promotion getting you back up the salary?

I'm not sure there's any scenario in which I'd actually want a pay cut.

Nicole2020 · 20-08-2020 3:30pm

berocca2016 wrote: »

Is anyone else coming to this competition from a private sector background ?

I am, I didn’t get called in this batch but from what I’ve heard I will in the next batch considering my OOO. I was a temp clerical officer for 3 summers 13 years ago but other than that my career has been purely hospitality management.

What kind of questions were asked in the video round? Seems crazy you could have 10 years exp in management and be excluded based on lack of management.

Nicole2020 · 20-08-2020 3:32pm

HannahR31 wrote: »

What about the position attracts you to this extent, may I ask? Is it the job security in the short term and then the hopes of a future promotion getting you back up the salary?

I'm not sure there's any scenario in which I'd actually want a pay cut.

I know plenty of people who would take the pay cut for benefits and job security alone. For example, we don’t get any maternity pay, pension or sick pay in my industry. But also the possibilities for yearly increases and promotions.

berocca2016 · 20-08-2020 3:33pm

Nicole2020 wrote: »

I am, I didn’t get called in this batch but from what I’ve heard I will in the next batch considering my OOO. I was a temp clerical officer for 3 summers 13 years ago but other than that my career has been purely hospitality management.

What kind of questions were asking in the video round? Seems crazy you could have 10 years exp in management and be excluded based on lack of management.

Hey, one was on effective change implementation, general management and the other a project in what I can remember, mind is totally a blank.

I'm coming from financial services so I know nothing about the machinations of the civil service really !

Nicole2020 · 20-08-2020 3:37pm

berocca2016 wrote: »

Hey, one was on effective change implementation, general management and the other a project in what I can remember, mind is totally a blank.

I'm coming from financial services so I know nothing about the machinations of the civil service really !

Thanks a mill, handy to know if and hopefully when I get called!

I’m the same, but I believe they are hoping to bring in some people from the private sector! This is just what I’ve heard from family who work in civil service mind you!

StevenToast · 20-08-2020 3:42pm

HannahR31 wrote: »

What about the position attracts you to this extent, may I ask? Is it the job security in the short term and then the hopes of a future promotion getting you back up the salary?

I'm not sure there's any scenario in which I'd actually want a pay cut.

All the various benefits of the public sector which are well documented on boards!

Plus I deal with Revenue everyday and I would much rather be on that side of the fence!

PhoenixParker · 20-08-2020 3:53pm

HannahR31 wrote: »

What about the position attracts you to this extent, may I ask? Is it the job security in the short term and then the hopes of a future promotion getting you back up the salary?

I'm not sure there's any scenario in which I'd actually want a pay cut.

Nicole2020 wrote: »

I know plenty of people who would take the pay cut for benefits and job security alone. For example, we don’t get any maternity pay, pension or sick pay in my industry. But also the possibilities for yearly increases and promotions.

I took a €15k payout to be EO.

It was a calculated risk that I would get pregnant, have a maternity leave and get HEO or AP within about 3 years. So far its worked out, just.

Reasons: paid maternity leave was a big one, it massively balanced out the pay cut in the short term.

Easiness of taking holidays vs being half on call, job security as I used to work for a small business, family friendly policies like its easy to take parental leave or go to 3 days, can take a career break if we move for a few years, can leave on time in the evening.

Structured career path is another big one. My degree is quite specific but I dont want to work in that field. It was hard to see where to go next if I moved on from my last job that I sort of landed by accident. Now there's clear path with a few optional branches.

TheStuka · 20-08-2020 4:49pm

Yes same here HEO , not enough Management and delivery of results apparently. Even though i have 13 years Management experience , multi project mgt experience and manage both contractors and civil servants. Along with multi EU procurement experience, drafting memos for government in a previous incarnation. (All mentioned and evidenced in my 3 minutes of (fame) in addition Cost estimation and management experience for millions of euros. I guess they are looking for someone who negotiated the good Friday agreement or IMF bailout something like that. Was annoyed for about 1 minute but then was thinking , not worth it expending energy thinking about it, did find below 41points a little insulting. Best of luck the people who made it.

20-08-2020 4:55pm

Monkey5 wrote: »

Ok, then a 26% increase. Still pretty good. I am not new as an AO and I have also been a CO and EO and I have some private sector management experience.

"Evidence of management experience, including leading teams, managing operations/projects/ budgets and delivering results" is what they're looking for.

A sideways move won't give that and I've already had my PO refuse to release me for a transfer. Reality is an AO doesn't get management experience.

I would love to know what the grade breakdown was between HEO's and AO's applying over the last number of competitions and the success rates. There does appear to be a perception that a disproportionate number of AO's are being cut during the competitions on the basis of a lack of staff management experience. If this is the case, it isn't something that can be rectified by bringing up volunteer work or relevant college qualifications - it has to be on the job experience. Past experience is all well and good but considering most AO's are recent graduates you would assume all candidates regardless of grade should be provided with the tools to succeed in an objectively fair competition ran by their employer. Considering the AO grade is primarily a graduate entry position, if an AO is not afforded the opportunity to gain staff management experience then the requirement effectively amounts to a barrier to promotion. If the stats back up this perception surely it would be discrimination under the Equality Acts because one class of employee is being disadvantaged over another.

TaurenDruid · 20-08-2020 5:29pm

And yet I've come across a fair few AOs from various departments, who've been promoted to AP, and a fair few HEOs with management experience told they didn't have management experience. AOs seem to do disproportionately well in some departments' internal competitions, at the expense of HEOs.

Swings and roundabouts.

NEW 2020 Assistant Principal Officer Competition

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