Serial

Rosy Posy · 18-12-2014 9:30pm

I thought it was a satisfying ending. My ethical spidey senses were tingling when she interviewed Josh. I don't think you can put much credence in interviewees that volunteer themselves in response to the podcast.

The way he inserted Adnan into the story and the way that Sarah sort of led him to the consensus that the person who Jay feared was 'Middle Eastern' (lol Pakistan is in South Asia, and anyway, Adnan was American) seemed bogus to me. I did think it gave good insight into Jay's character.

I'm looking forward to the follow up episode in a year or whenever with details of the DNA results and the appeal.

Turtyturd · 18-12-2014 9:36pm

I didn't actually cop that was what she meant by the big picture comment. I thought the serial killer connection was silly when it was first mentioned in the Innocence Project episode as it went against everything Jay knew, and was waiting for her to drop some bombshell

connection between Ronald and Jay.

18-12-2014 9:41pm

Wow. Wow!
I loved the ending, thought it was the best episode of all. What amazing storytelling/presenting and knowledge of the listener. IMO the real psych knowledge displayed was of us as listeners.

For the first time though I really felt for the victim's family. I guess the implied conclusion brought the reality home a little.

Great series, and haven't been so gripped by any series since The Sopranos / The Wire! What next?

Amazingfun · 19-12-2014 6:20am

I still think Adnan did it and was happy to hear Dana's "bad luck day" rant because I agree 100%. I am also with Sarah

in her "even if in my heart of heart's I thought Adnan did it....as a juror I''d have to acquit him".

Good ending really and I (like millions of others) am looking forward to Season 2

The Black Oil · 19-12-2014 11:39am

Listened to the first episode earlier this week. Seems to be your typical NPR production, though I'm not entirely won over, yet.

Giruilla · 19-12-2014 4:21pm

Amazingfun wrote: »

I still think Adnan did it and was happy to hear Dana's "bad luck day" rant because I agree 100%. I am also with Sarah
in her "even if in my heart of heart's I thought Adnan did it....as a juror I''d have to acquit him".

Good ending really and I (like millions of others) am looking forward to Season 2

So you think Adnan is guilty, based on if he didn't do it, he would have been hugely unlucky for everything to happen to him the way it did.. which you deem impossible and evidence of guilt.
So how about Adnan getting put with a lawyer who couldn't defend him properly in trial, when it should have been an easy job to get him off based on how unreliable Jay's testimony was and lack of evidence against Adnan... would you say that was unlucky?

I thought that was a poor way to end the show. SK copped out by not revealing who the snippets from the opening episode were from.

The easy ride she's given Jay - the person who knew where Hae's car was, used his shovel to bury her, threw away his clothers and lied repeatedly about everything he told police - over the course of the show is bizarre and a let down. In fact so strange, that I think there might be more to it. Like she actively did not want to implicate him in any way at all over the latter course of the show.

Amazingfun · 19-12-2014 5:53pm

Yes I think it's implausible for someone to be that unlucky-not impossible though.

Also: the lawyer didn't give as shoddy a defense as was originally thought. SK went over that already and gave legitimate reasons for her strategy moves. Rabia Chaudry was wrong in her allegations that she only wanted to get money from the family for an appeal according to Sarah's research.

And: I already said I agree with Sarah that there wasn't enough evidence to convict.

You seem angry or something? Better get used to the idea that many people believe Adnan is guilty

I hope for his sake that the coming DNA tests go in his favor...but I am not expecting anything much to arise from it really. We'll see!

steve_r · 19-12-2014 5:54pm

Giruilla wrote: »

I thought that was a poor way to end the show. SK copped out by not revealing who the snippets from the opening episode were from.

The easy ride she's given Jay - the person who knew where Hae's car was, used his shovel to bury her, threw away his clothers and lied repeatedly about everything he told police - over the course of the show is bizarre and a let down. In fact so strange, that I think there might be more to it. Like she actively did not want to implicate him in any way at all over the latter course of the show.

There's a theory going around that those snippets were the "unfounded allegations" that she talked about in E11. Still, she should have addressed it because it's a red herring otherwise.

I'd love to know what was really said in the conversation with Jay. Given that the guys name is on public record, there would have been some pretty serious legal implications if she gave him too much attention.

This is very good: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6ab2d45a77/the-last-episode-of-serial

Giruilla · 19-12-2014 7:18pm

Amazingfun wrote: »

Yes I think it's implausible for someone to be that unlucky-not impossible though.

Amazingfun wrote: »

And: I already said I agree with Sarah that there wasn't enough evidence to convict.

You say you wouldn't convict Adnan, yet you are happy to engage in the type of illogical thinking that resulted in him being convicted in the first place.
Exactly what is implausible about what happened to Adnan that day?

THE most implauible thing in the whole case, is how Jay says Adnan killed Hae. That he planned to murder his ex girlfriend, by strangulation, in a parking lot, in a narrow time frame where she will be known missing instantly.. and to top it off, call a seperate person to effectively force them to help dispose of the body. It is a completely ludicrous notion.

Amazingfun wrote: »

Also: the lawyer didn't give as shoddy a defense as was originally thought. SK went over that already and gave legitimate reasons for her strategy moves. Rabia Chaudry was wrong in her allegations that she only wanted to get money from the family for an appeal according to Sarah's research.

As was originally thought? The lawyer gave a worse defense than possibly imaginable! She repeatedly asked the Syed's for money such as trasporting the jury to leakin park - which she blatantly pocketed. I'm not saying she threw the case on purpose, but she had clearly become troubled and inept for the case from the get go.
The single thing she had to do to get Adnan off was prove the unreal amount of inconsistincies in Jay's statements.. more than inconsistincies, lies.

Amazingfun · 19-12-2014 8:44pm

Exactly what is implausible about what happened to Adnan that day?

:pac: Are you for real? Did you actually listen to the finale or what? Pay special attention to Dana's rant on Adnan's unlucky day or even better...check here:

Giruilla · 19-12-2014 9:16pm

Amazingfun wrote: »

:pac: Are you for real? Did you actually listen to the finale or what? Pay special attention to Dana's rant on Adnan's unlucky day or even better...check here:

So you're willing to say the things written in that 'hilarious' meme are more implausible than as I wrote

.. Adnan planned to murder his ex girlfriend, by strangulation, in a parking lot, in a narrow time frame where she will be known missing instantly.. and to top it off, call a seperate person to effectively force them to help dispose of the body.

I might add that every single thing that according to you - is implausible - has been explained in depth on this blog as not only being entirely plausible, but detailing exactly how they happened whilst being corroborated from the cell phone records that day.

Amazingfun · 19-12-2014 10:16pm

Giruilla wrote: »

So you're willing to say the things written in that 'hilarious' meme are more implausible than as I wrote

I might add that every single thing that according to you - is implausible - has been explained in depth on this blog as not only being entirely plausible, but detailing exactly how they happened whilst being corroborated from the cell phone records that day.

You keep acting like you have it definitively solved lol. You don't. That meme was done using the words and research of Dana Chivers-a paid researcher for the show! You know more than she? I doubt that

So why don't you take your 'let's fight about Serial' to REDDIT? I already stated earlier in the thread I am not some Serial super-sleuth. I just think--as does Sarah and MANY others who indeed are genuine super sleuths-that there is enough there to still be suspicious of Adnan. For me the scenario that has him only really feeling the loss of Hae upon his return to school (to some white guy as well-a fact I feel is not hammered on enough really) led to a rage. It's in no way impausible that a 17 year old Adnan could do it. But-as almost everyone agrees: there wasn't really enough hard evidence for me to convict him were I a juror.

So: stop lecturing me like I am the only one in the world who thinks he may indeed be guilty. Far as I can see thousands of people still do and along with so many others I feel Jay was involved along with him...but how much or why...well we may never know.

Blisterman · 19-12-2014 10:34pm

Adnan may be implausibly unlucky. The odds of all those things occurring to him are probably in the hundreds of thousands.

But, the odds of them happening to somebody, anybody, out of the thousands of people accused of murder, are much less. It's like winning the lotto. Unlikely to happen to you, but chances are, someone's going to win it.

Don't forget, the reason this case above all others was selected was because of the level of ambiguity and improbability, which leads to a good story. If it were clear cut, there'd be no reason for it to exist.

Giruilla · 19-12-2014 11:28pm

Imagine this, a scenario where Adnan had a capable lawyer.

What happens?

What happens is what you agree should have happened, Adnan is acquitted.

Next - Jay's plea deal effectively crumbles and his trial is completely different. He's no longer treated as an 'accessory after the fact' as his story can no longer hold up. So what is going to happen to the guy who..
- had Adnans cellphone during a time in which Hae was murdered.
- made numerous called to his friends which pinged the towers in area where Hae dissapeared placing him there.
- showed police the exact location of Hae's car.
- described to police how Hae was buried exactly, position of body, location, depth of grave.
- used his own shovel to bury Hae's body.
- disposed of shovel.
- worried enough about dna and fingerprint evidence implicating him to return to shovel and wipe them clean.
- disposed of clothes he wore the day Hae went missing for fear of dna evidence.
- changed his story to police repeatedly.
- lied in every police interview he gave.
- lied in court.

.. you think a jury wont be able to convict him based on that?

The only evidence against Adnan, was Jay's testimony. What reason would he have to blame someone else for the crime? Because he is 100% getting convicted of murder if he doesn't.

To say Adnan was "implausibly unlucky" is fallacious. It's looking after the fact he was convicted with hindsight bias to say each event added up on its own, is too unlikely to be true.
Yet every single day occurences occur to each one of us, that if you stopped and looked back on it - selectively chose the likelihood of certain events occuring - you would also say are too unlikely to be true.

Rosy Posy · 20-12-2014 3:27am

"Amazingfun wrote:

(to some white guy as well-a fact I feel is not hammered on enough really.

Why tf is this in any way relevant?

Amazingfun · 20-12-2014 3:49am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Why tf is this in any way relevant?

:rolleyes: do we really have to do this?

Rosy Posy · 20-12-2014 5:47am

Amazingfun wrote: »

:rolleyes: do we really have to do this?

Well, you brought it up and questioned why it wasn't addressed in the podcast, which IMO is because it's of no relevance.

Amazingfun · 20-12-2014 11:30am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Well, you brought it up and questioned why it wasn't addressed in the podcast, which IMO is because it's of no relevance.

Well-in my opinion it is. It plays into a possible motive for why Adnan was angry enough to hurt Hae. It's not the main reason-it's not even that important in the grand scheme of things-but it matters. You're free to disagree.

Mr E · 20-12-2014 10:25pm

Interesting articles on Huff Post and Wired with some pictures of the people and places in Serial.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/12/serial-podcast-photos_n_6308356.html
http://www.wired.com/2014/12/every-serial-google-image-search/

Amazingfun · 20-12-2014 11:50pm

Just saw this-

The Innocence Project's Deirdre Enright fills everyone in on the who the new suspects on their radar are:

http://time.com/3639655/serial-innocence-project-deirdre-enright/

Rosy Posy · 21-12-2014 12:37am

Amazingfun wrote: »

Well-in my opinion it is. It plays into a possible motive for why Adnan was angry enough to hurt Hae. It's not the main reason-it's not even that important in the grand scheme of things-but it matters. You're free to disagree.

It only matters if you believe that it's a universal truth, or at least that Adnan believes, that white people are inherently better than people of colour. Tbh I think the fact that he was older and had a camero are far more significant than his race.

Mr E · 21-12-2014 11:20am

Then stuff like this pops up.....

https://soundcloud.com/mbugout/serial-theme-notorious-big-remix-by-fafu
https://soundcloud.com/kpffkl/mail-kimp-remix

_Bella_ · 21-12-2014 5:27pm

This gave me a good laugh!

Mr E · 21-12-2014 7:10pm

They nailed the tone (and the lawyer!)

Loved the last line too.

25-12-2014 5:22pm

I can't post links - but there's a Sarah Koenig / Terry Gross Fresh Air interview from the 23rd over on NPR.org.

Interesting to hear Sarah's perspective on how she handled the growing popularity as the series was broadcast.

Amazingfun · 30-12-2014 12:42am

Interview with Jay:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-wilds-star-witness-adnan-syed-serial-case-pt-1/

Rosy Posy · 30-12-2014 10:50am

Does anyone else think that Jay would have done himself more favours talking to Sarah?

He totally changes his story again and is either trolling or admitting to committing perjury. I think that if this had been teased out and given a sympathetic treatment the way Guiterrez and the detectives were given in the podcast he might have come out of it looking better.

8-10 · 30-12-2014 10:54am

Interview doesn't change my mind either way, when's Part 2 due out?

FouxDaFaFa · 30-12-2014 11:24pm

Part 2 of The Intercept interview with Jay.

The Strawman Argument · 31-12-2014 5:46am

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Does anyone else think that Jay would have done himself more favours talking to Sarah?
He totally changes his story again and is either trolling or admitting to committing perjury. I think that if this had been teased out and given a sympathetic treatment the way Guiterrez and the detectives were given in the podcast he might have come out of it looking better.

He definitely would've came out of it looking better, but it's understandable enough that he was wary.

His reasoning for not telling the whole truth at the time of it all seems pretty believable imo and he'd've probably gotten far less of negative response had it been presented this way on the podcast instead. At the very least it would've made it easier to get across to people that the case is more about insubstantial evidence rather than whether or not Adnan done it.

kev1.3s · 31-12-2014 12:04pm

Have to say I beleive mostly what Jay has to say, maybe he is minimising his own role to some degree but it appears to me that Adnan was the one with his hands around Hay's neck.
There probably wasn't enough evedence to convict to be fair but in my opinion he probably still deserves to be in prison.
The irony is that if he was to have admitted his guilt and shown remorse for his crime he would have gotten out on parole by now, but for me overturning his conviction is more about his personal honour than his freedom.

Rosy Posy · 31-12-2014 12:28pm

kev1.3s wrote: »

The irony is that if he was to have admitted his guilt and shown remorse for his crime he would have gotten out on parole by now, but for me overturning his conviction is more about his personal honour than his freedom.

Rabia said somewhere that if the appeals are successful they might just let him go with time served rather than try to go to the expense and trouble of a retrial, especially one that would be under such great public scrutiny, which would mean that his name would never be cleared per se but he would still be free. I'd imagine he's pretty much institutionalised now, going straight from being a teenager living with parents to being in prison. If he does get out it'll be a tough adjustment, even before you take into consideration that the eyes of the world will be watching him.

8-10 · 31-12-2014 12:36pm

Jay's getting a huge amount of backlash about these interviews over on Reddit. The "Adnan is innocent" camp is very forceful in their views.

I believe that Adnan did it, but I'm not going to go hounding those who think otherwise. There's a real camp v camp mentality going on that could easily get out of control. People accusing Jay's dad, calling his employer and posting his address and kid's names isn't on really and is very reminiscent of the Boston Bombers incident on Reddit or Spike Lee posting the incorrect address of George Zimmerman on Twitter.

Hopefully nothing gets too out of hand.

Rosy Posy · 31-12-2014 12:41pm

8-10 wrote: »

Hopefully nothing gets too out of hand.

Apparently people have been sending him messages and driving by his house. In fairness reddit are pretty good about redacting names etc. The wild speculation is a bit ott, especially dragging other people into it, like his family.

FouxDaFaFa · 31-12-2014 11:27pm

The Intercept and Jay Part 3 (final).

FouxDaFaFa · 01-01-2015 12:06am

I have never used the expression "to hell in a handbasket" before but that's exactly where the serial subreddit has gone in the last week or so. It is absolutely brutal. They're casually throwing around extremely serious accusations about Mr. B, who they have named. We're talking accusations that could ruin your life.

The author of The Intercept pieces came on to do a Q&A and got savaged, although she didn't help things much. This is a quote from an interview she did:

...like in The Wire, which all of the delightful white liberals who are creaming over This American Life also adore and cherish

Also, hilariously, one reddit user discovered that there actually was a Westside Hitman. (Not likely to be of much relevance to any of this but I do think it's funny that one of the most ridiculous-sounding bits from the podcast turned out to be true).

Morzadec · 05-01-2015 1:58am

Become a bit obsessed with this, just finished today.

Nothing is clear cut here. I feel like both Jay and Adnan could be holding something back and neither are convincing.

If you had to put me on the spot I would say that Adnan probably did do it, and funnily enough it was that Bad Luck Brian meme (Dana's "unlucky" speech) that probably was the final thing to push me towards this side.

But if I were a juror I would have to acquit as the whole thing still seems to be shrouded in mystery.

Side note, if anyone hasn't watched it, if you liked Serial I would highly recommend the documentary 'The Staircase':

Shares a lot of similarities with Serial in that it's a murder case and you get the story in 10 45-minute segments. Similar also in that you're asking yourself throughout, "did he do it?"

The difference is that you see the defence-team in action throughout the documentary and the final scene is the verdict. You have no idea how he will be found until the very end. Thrilling watching (imagine listening to serial and then hearing the verdict of the jury at the end!). Watch it without looking anything up about the case to avoid spoilers

Morzadec · 07-01-2015 1:18am

It's funny, after letting this sink in for a few days and reading through the facts of the case again, and a lot of arguments and hypotheses on Reddit, my opinion has become much firmer on Adnan being the guilty party. Probably up to about 90% sure, whereas before I was 60-70% at best.

I think the whole podcast was framed as 'potentially innocent man in jail". Not that I think Koenig tried to twist the truth - I do tend to believe her when she says she is just trying to find out what happened and present the facts.

But as I said, the whole narrative was based around Adnan, and he is the star of the show. It's him who Koenig is predominantly interviewing, and it's first and foremost his story. I do think there's a certain amount of (not deliberate) emotional manipulation going on here for the listener.

Take away this, take away the podcast and look at the facts, and while things are still very murky and I would not rule out other explanations, by far the most likely explanation here is that Adnan did it.

bren2001 · 07-01-2015 1:36am

Morzadec wrote: »

It's funny, after letting this sink in for a few days and reading through the facts of the case again, and a lot of arguments and hypotheses on Reddit, my opinion has become much firmer on Adnan being the guilty party. Probably up to about 90% sure, whereas before I was 60-70% at best.

I think the whole podcast was framed as 'potentially innocent man in jail". Not that I think Koenig tried to twist the truth - I do tend to believe her when she says she is just trying to find out what happened and present the facts.

But as I said, the whole narrative was based around Adnan, and he is the star of the show. It's him who Koenig is predominantly interviewing, and it's first and foremost his story. I do think there's a certain amount of (not deliberate) emotional manipulation going on here for the listener.

Take away this, take away the podcast and look at the facts, and while things are still very murky and I would not rule out other explanations, by far the most likely explanation here is that Adnan did it.

The biggest problem with it is that the facts are not clear. Koeing never cared whether he was innocent or guilty, she tried to present the facts in a non-bias fashion.

While I think Adnan is guilty, I do believe he was unjustly put away. There was not enough evidence there to convict him. None of the stories make sense.

Real Psycrow · 07-01-2015 11:44am

bren2001 wrote: »

The biggest problem with it is that the facts are not clear. Koeing never cared whether he was innocent or guilty, she tried to present the facts in a non-bias fashion.

While I think Adnan is guilty, I do believe he was unjustly put away. There was not enough evidence there to convict him. None of the stories make sense.

And this is the nub of it. Adnan's guilt or innocence is almost secondary in the story. It's all about whether there was actually enough evidence to convict him and if he's lawyer did a good enough job or was she impaired by her illness.

The interviews with Jay really shed a whole new light on things. Everything he says sounds reasonable, although there were a couple of questions he wasn't asked that the report should have brought up, such as why he was so terrified that night in the porn shop. But in general, the interviews and Dana's opinions on Adnan having to be extremely unlucky for all this to happen have made me look at Adnan again as actually being guilty. However, as I said above, his guilt is secondary.

nc6000 · 07-01-2015 1:44pm

I think it's very interesting that Serial never mentions that

someone from the Mosque Adnan went to pleaded the fifth during the trial as they didn't want to incriminate themselves. I wonder what they knew. Jay says in his interview that he thinks this is who made the anonymous call to the police.

FouxDaFaFa · 07-01-2015 10:12pm

The Intercept now has an interview with the State Prosecutor, Kevin Urick.

I was really excited when Glen Greenwald set up The Intercept but I think this article kind of goes against what it's supposed to be about. I don't think Serial was perfect and I am sure there are things Koenig could have done better but the editors at The Intercept seem to be allowing this weird, spiteful passive-aggressiveness against Koenig and NPR to go on unchecked. (See the little editorial above Urick's interview).

The Black Oil · 08-01-2015 1:18pm

I've listened to 8 episodes at this point. I wasn't sure after the first, but it improved. It's basically your typical NPR production, well put together.

Amazingfun · 08-01-2015 2:20pm

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

The Intercept now has an interview with the State Prosecutor, Kevin Urick.

I was really excited when Glen Greenwald set up The Intercept but I think this article kind of goes against what it's supposed to be about. I don't think Serial was perfect and I am sure there are things Koenig could have done better but the editors at The Intercept seem to be allowing this weird, spiteful passive-aggressiveness against Koenig and NPR to go on unchecked. (See the little editorial above Urick's interview).

I feel the opposite really. I don't find the implied criticism of Koenig to be that vicious. She did leave important data out and looking back upon the whole series it's understandable why she did-it would ruin the story and hence the entertainment factor. And that's ok because at the end of the day this IS entertainment. But should she/Serial be let off having to hear blowback as a result? No.

For me her worst white lie/omission was leaving out the bit in Hae's diary concerning her describing Adnan as possessive. She flat out said Hae didn't say that!

.

Having said that I truly enjoyed Serial and am of course looking forward to the second season

keane2097 · 08-01-2015 11:11pm

So, so guilty.

92cooper · 08-01-2015 11:17pm

Just starting into Serial now... stupidly addicted already!

callaway92 · 09-01-2015 12:34am

This has now overtaken Breaking Bad as the most recommended thing by me to others ever!

Amazingfun · 09-01-2015 1:55am

"Serial Hits Back"- comments on Urick's assertions in latest interview.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/01/serial-hits-back-on-prosecutors-allegations.html?mid=facebook_vulture

Amazingfun · 10-01-2015 12:37am

I love Ryan Ferguson. He is a truly exceptional person and now that he is free is an inspirational one too

You can see his story on 48 Hours and Dateline episodes-

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-accuser/

Here is his take on SERIAL:

http://www.biographile.com/surreal-listening-a-wrongfully-convicted-mans-take-on-serial/38834/?Ref=insyn_corp_bio-tarcher

8-10 · 10-01-2015 10:16am

Amazingfun wrote: »

"Serial Hits Back"- comments on Urick's assertions in latest interview.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/01/serial-hits-back-on-prosecutors-allegations.html?mid=facebook_vulture

Part 2 still not published due to editors it sounds like:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/intercept-reporters-serial-article-is-762241

Serial

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