Average V Median wage Ireland?

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:25am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its important to keep our prejudices in check!

Augeo wrote: »

If the tax system was rejigged so those earning their few quid kept more of it those that have the hand out would want an ole bonus or an extra few quid also.

remember now!

17-02-2021 11:25am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i ll stick with respected economic commentators opinions, and the facts that are used, and the facts that i have found myself

You're going to stick with whatever 'facts' you make up in your head and that's about it. But off you go.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:26am

Tommy Muscular Tether wrote: »

You're going to stick with whatever 'facts' you make up in your head and that's about it. But off you go.

i posted one of my sources, others include cso and property prices etc, tis all freely available on the internets

17-02-2021 11:27am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

remember now!

The earn fnck all don't have their hand out?

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:27am

Augeo wrote: »

The earn fnck all don't have their hand out?

what?

crossman47 · 17-02-2021 11:28am

Benedict wrote: »

Incidentally, surely in order to establish the average, enough data must be available to also establish the median!

.

That is not true. some earnings series compiled by CSO are based on aggregate returns from employers i.e. total employees, total earnings, etc. from these you can get a mean but not a median. I think they distinguish full time so you can also get a mean for those.

Another series that does have a median comes from tax returns for individuals but these do not distinguish full and part time. Its not as easy as you seem to think. Nobody is trying to fool anyone .

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 11:28am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i ll stick with respected economic commentators opinions, and the facts that are used, and the facts that i have found myself

Micheal Hudson is a communist though. Generally not a good idea to listen to them when it comes to economics. They just want big government at any cost.

crossman47 · 17-02-2021 11:29am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i ll stick with respected economic commentators opinions, and the facts that are used, and the facts that i have found myself

So ESRI are not respected?

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:29am

stefanovich wrote: »

Micheal Hudson is a communist though. Generally not a good idea to listen to them when it comes to economics. They just want big government at any cost.

no hes not, he classes himself as a classical economist, and no, he doesn't advocate for big government, just a democratic one

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 11:30am

crossman47 wrote: »

So ESRI are not respected?

of course they are, but they have inbuilt biases, as do all institutions

Benedict · 17-02-2021 11:49am

crossman47 wrote: »

That is not true. some earnings series compiled by CSO are based on aggregate returns from employers i.e. total employees, total earnings, etc. from these you can get a mean but not a median. I think they distinguish full time so you can also get a mean for those.

Another series that does have a median comes from tax returns for individuals but these do not distinguish full and part time. Its not as easy as you seem to think. Nobody is trying to fool anyone .

I don't think it's "easy" but surely it's doable? Does nobody have sufficient data to establish a median wage figure for FT workers?

To establish the average, the total wages must be known and also the number of earners. And nobody is able to calculate the median?

Is that the same in every country I wonder? Or are we unique in not being able to calculate a median FT wage/salary?

Eric Cartman · 17-02-2021 11:52am

Cyrus wrote: »

i remember re nua ran on an economic platform advocating a flat tax, they got no traction.

in reality it makes a lot of sense and removes the disincentive for progression that exists at the crossover between between the low and high rate.

They got no traction because of their stance on abortion. A fiscally conservative party with a free vote on social issues is what we need, not bible thumpers with 1 good idea

Cyrus · 17-02-2021 11:57am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

They got no traction because of their stance on abortion. A fiscally conservative party with a free vote on social issues is what we need, not bible thumpers with 1 good idea

abortion ref was 66/34 so technically a 3rd of people wouldnt have had an issue with their stance in that regard, so it wasn't just abortion.

also you dont need to be a bible thumper to be anti abortion.

Benedict · 17-02-2021 11:57am

Copied and pasted from Google some minutes ago:

Showing results for median wage full time workers england

Median annual earnings for full-time employees in the United Kingdom from 1999 to 2020 (in GBP)
Average earnings in GBP
2020 31,461
2019 30,378
2018 29,559
2017 28,759
9 more rows•
3 Feb 2021

Geuze · 17-02-2021 12:09pm

Tommy Muscular Tether wrote: »

According to the ERSI income inequality in Ireland is falling.

Correct.

Income inequality has fallen in Ireland.

Now, it is possible to debate that the measures of income inequality only measure income, and don't take a wider view, fair enough.

Michael Taft is arguing that:

https://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2021/02/the-gini-coefficient-and-sushi.html

Geuze · 17-02-2021 12:10pm

crossman47 wrote: »

That is not true. some earnings series compiled by CSO are based on aggregate returns from employers i.e. total employees, total earnings, etc. from these you can get a mean but not a median. I think they distinguish full time so you can also get a mean for those.

Another series that does have a median comes from tax returns for individuals but these do not distinguish full and part time. Its not as easy as you seem to think. Nobody is trying to fool anyone .

This post is helpful.

I thought there must be a reason why median FT earnings aren't published.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 12:11pm

Geuze wrote: »

Correct.

Income inequality has fallen in Ireland.

Now, it is possible to debate that the measures of income inequality only measure income, and don't take a wider view, fair enough.

Michael Taft is arguing that:

https://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2021/02/the-gini-coefficient-and-sushi.html

what about overall wealth inequality?

Geuze · 17-02-2021 12:12pm

Benedict wrote: »

I don't think it's "easy" but surely it's doable? Does nobody have sufficient data to establish a median wage figure for FT workers?

I provided the Eurostat figures for Ireland a few pages back.

Chips Lovell · 17-02-2021 12:18pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what about overall wealth inequality?

CSO measures it every five years. Last one was 2018 and saw wealth inequality declining:

The Gini coefficient for net wealth in 2018 is 0.67, compared to 0.75 in 2013, indicating a reduction in wealth inequality over this five-year period.

Wanderer78 · 17-02-2021 12:20pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

CSO measures it every five years. Last one was 2018 and saw wealth inequality declining:

we generally store our wealth in assets, primarily in property and land, whats currently occurring in these sectors, also baring in mind, many younger generations are also living in a low wage inflationary environment?

Benedict · 17-02-2021 12:21pm

Geuze wrote: »

I provided the Eurostat figures for Ireland a few pages back.

Apologies Geuze, I understood that a median on FT wages was not available - could you indulge me and repeat the figure - if you know it? Perhaps I became muddled by graphs, figures etc.

My question is, what is the median wage for FT workers?

UK for 2020 median FT wages are 2020 £31,461 Euro 36k approx at today's conversion rates.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 12:25pm

Benedict wrote: »

Apologies Geuze, I understood that a median on FT wages was not available - could you indulge me and repeat the figure - if you know it? Perhaps I became muddled by graphs, figures etc.

My question is, what is the median wage for FT workers?

You need to know individual salaries to calculate that.

Revenue should have that data.

Benedict · 17-02-2021 12:30pm

stefanovich wrote: »

You need to know individual salaries to calculate that.

Revenue should have that data.

Should have - yes, but I can't find it - can you?

Geuze appears to have the elusive figure. Hopefully he will tell us what it is.

The UK have published the median FT wage as I have shown.

crossman47 · 17-02-2021 12:55pm

stefanovich wrote: »

You need to know individual salaries to calculate that.

Revenue should have that data.

I don't think Revenue use full/part time as a classification. I was never asked which I am and they don't ask for hours worked.

crossman47 · 17-02-2021 1:05pm

Benedict wrote: »

Should have - yes, but I can't find it - can you?

Geuze appears to have the elusive figure. Hopefully he will tell us what it is.

The UK have published the median FT wage as I have shown.

I think the problem is that CSO have replaced the Structure of Earnings Survey (which gave a median for 2014) with data based on administrative sources (Revenue) https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/backgroundnotes/.

This specifically states full and part time are not distinguished. No doubt this was an attempt by CSO to use existing sources and not burden employers with further form filling.

I did post this estimate already : In 2018 for all workers, the median was 36k when the mean was 44k. Based on that, I would think the median for full time workers must be in the region of 38 to 41K. I don't think its possible for CSO to calculate a median as they base their data on aggregate data from employers.

ELM327 · 17-02-2021 1:25pm

crossman47 wrote: »

I think the problem is that CSO have replaced the Structure of Earnings Survey (which gave a median for 2014) with data based on administrative sources (Revenue) https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/backgroundnotes/.

This specifically states full and part time are not distinguished. No doubt this was an attempt by CSO to use existing sources and not burden employers with further form filling.

I did post this estimate already : In 2018 for all workers, the median was 36k when the mean was 44k. Based on that, I would think the median for full time workers must be in the region of 38 to 41K. I don't think its possible for CSO to calculate a median as they base their data on aggregate data from employers.

The median is skewed as most large companies provide mean average salaries rather than person per person info.

Geuze · 17-02-2021 1:42pm

Benedict wrote: »

Apologies Geuze, I understood that a median on FT wages was not available - could you indulge me and repeat the figure - if you know it? Perhaps I became muddled by graphs, figures etc.

See posts 106 and 107.

Also 44, 45, 46.

crossman47 · 17-02-2021 2:40pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The median is skewed as most large companies provide mean average salaries rather than person per person info.

My point was they provide aggregates so it is not possible to calculate a median.

Benedict · 17-02-2021 3:11pm

Geuze wrote: »

See posts 106 and 107.

Also 44, 45, 46.

Look Geuze, Leo is able to give a figure and say this is the average. He doesn't present us with a litany of "income by age" "income by sex" blah blah.

It's a single figure just below 49k

The UK median wages for FT workers is a single figure - not a plethora of graphs and a litany of qualifications.

As far as you are aware:

(a) is there a figure for a median salary/wages for FT worker?
(b) do you know what it is?
(c) If you know, can you just say what it is ple-e-ease?
(d) If you don't know, then thanks anyway - but please say so.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 3:25pm

Benedict wrote: »

Look Geuze, Leo is able to give a figure and say this is the average. He doesn't present us with a litany of "income by age" "income by sex" blah blah.

It's a single figure just below 49k

The UK median wages for FT workers is a single figure - not a plethora of graphs and a litany of qualifications.

As far as you are aware:

(a) is there a figure for a median salary/wages for FT worker?
(b) do you know what it is?
(c) If you know, can you just say what it is ple-e-ease?
(d) If you don't know, then thanks anyway - but please say so.

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/bution-of-income-tax-by-type-of-gross-income-range-of-gross-income-marital-status-year-and-statistic

Benedict · 17-02-2021 3:31pm

stefanovich wrote: »

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/bution-of-income-tax-by-type-of-gross-income-range-of-gross-income-marital-status-year-and-statistic

Still don't see any figure for median wage for FT workers?

con___manx1 · 17-02-2021 3:35pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

If that's what you really believe, that the particulars of jobs employers can't quickly fill, are an accurate portrayal of employment and salaries in Ireland, then I don't know where to begin with explaining how stupid your outlook is.

Do you have any concept of the number of jobs and sectors that never get near being advertised and the salaries that accompany them?

Good lord.

Legally company's have to advertise any positions that become available even if the job is already stitched up. My brother was offered a job and it was still advertised. People went for interviews that were just pointless. I seen a similar situation happen in my company.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 3:39pm

Benedict wrote: »

Still don't see any figure for median wage for FT workers?

You can figure it out approximately.

What stood out in the figures for 2018 in bold below. Why so many in the 100 -> 150 range? Seems anomalous. Public sector management?

<10K 423,603
10 - 12K 82,422
12 - 15K. 127,400
15 - 17K 86,951
17 - 20K 131,840
20 - 25K 217,946
25 - 27K 87,782
27 - 30K 124,223
30 - 35K 190,572
35 - 40K 166,339
40 - 50K 237,937
50 - 60K 169,338
60 - 70K 122,512
70 - 75K 48,838
75 - 80K 41,232
80 - 90K 64,390
90 - 100K 47,650
100 - 150K 107,186
150 - 200K 30,096
200 - 275K 15,520
>275K 15,054

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 3:44pm

Using the numbers above I think the median would be in this range:

27 - 30K 124,223

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 3:45pm

Benedict wrote: »

Still don't see any figure for median wage for FT workers?

Ahh fulltime ahh ****

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 3:47pm

2013 68,858 3.21 8,186.24 10.12 1,924.1 16.38
2014 73,006 3.28 8,670.1 10.31 2,070.06 16.53
2015 78,949 3.43 9,388.27 10.43 2,209.15 16.04
2016 87,488 3.64 10,409.88 11.01 2,456.33 17.17
2017 95,613 3.88 11,394.24 11.45 2,690.34 17.49
2018 107,186 4.22 12,782.93 12.12 3,006.29 18.12

Who in the public sector gave themselves massive raises?

Bigfatmichael · 17-02-2021 3:48pm

It really needs to done a county level or Dublin and then the rest of Ireland.

I get 40K where I'm currently working but could easily get 60K if I moved to Dublin but would actually be worse off.

17-02-2021 3:48pm

stefanovich wrote: »

You can figure it out approximately.

What stood out in the figures for 2018 in bold below. Why so many in the 100 -> 150 range? Seems anomalous. Public sector management?

<10K 423,603
10 - 12K 82,422
12 - 15K. 127,400
15 - 17K 86,951
17 - 20K 131,840
20 - 25K 217,946
25 - 27K 87,782
27 - 30K 124,223
30 - 35K 190,572
35 - 40K 166,339
40 - 50K 237,937
50 - 60K 169,338
60 - 70K 122,512
70 - 75K 48,838
75 - 80K 41,232
80 - 90K 64,390
90 - 100K 47,650
100 - 150K 107,186
150 - 200K 30,096
200 - 275K 15,520
>275K 15,054

stefanovich wrote: »

Using the numbers above I think the median would be in this range:

27 - 30K 124,223

Loads of those must be part timers.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 3:52pm

stefanovich wrote: »

You can figure it out approximately.

What stood out in the figures for 2018 in bold below. Why so many in the 100 -> 150 range? Seems anomalous. Public sector management?

The 100-150k range is five times bigger than the ranges which come before it so, naturally, it contains more people. My guess is that at the time the ranges were set 100k plus was serious money, with not that many people in the bracket, but due to wage inflation over time there are now many more. However the brackets remain unchanged because either (a) they can't be bothered or (b) it facilitates year-on-year comparisons, and the measurement of change over time, to have consistent brackets over time.

begbysback · 17-02-2021 3:53pm

I’m underpaid, don’t forget to calculate that in.

17-02-2021 4:00pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Using the numbers above I think the median would be in this range:

27 - 30K 124,223

Minimum wage is about a tenner an hour which comes to 18-20k a year for a full time worker. So almost by definition anyone on less than that is not working full time, so shouldn't be used to work out the median full time wage.

As for the 100-150k bracket, when the rest of the brackets are increments of 5k or 10k and that one is an increment of 50k, it is going to capture more people.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 4:05pm

Benedict wrote: »

Yes, my mistake, I meant most people (I reckon) listening to Leo's statement think 49k is the median - and there seems to be no available evidence to support that.

Incidentally, surely in order to establish the average, enough data must be available to also establish the median!

No. You need much more data to calculate the median than the mean.

You can calculate the mean knowing just (a) total amount of earned income and (b) total number of earners. You don't have to know what any individual earned. But to calculate the median you need - at least in principle - to know what every individual earned. That's a huge dataset.

This is one of the main reasons that we use means so much and medians so little. It's not a desire to mislead anyone; it's just the mean is much more accessible.

Benedict wrote: »

It seems to me that the public is being sold the message that 49k is the median which gives the impression that the country is doing really well.
And those who don't think impressions matter should remember the days when Bertie was prating on about how brilliantly Ireland was doing when in fact Ireland was drowning but didn't realise it.

The question "what is the ft worker median wage". This question is central to this thread and nobody can answer it.

For that, you not only have to know what each individual earns, but whether each individual is full-time or not - data which (a) doesn't turn up in tax returns, and (b) frequently isn't available for the self-employed, whose earnings aren't calculated by the amount of time they work or are committed to work.

The surprising thing to me is not that Ireland doesn't have a figure for median full-time earnings, but that the UK does. I'd love to know how they calculate it.

crossman47 · 17-02-2021 4:06pm

Benedict wrote: »

Still don't see any figure for median wage for FT workers?

I've posted a few times that its not there and can't be there given the data sets we now use. If other countries have it, they must carry out a survey of individual workers and distinguish between full and part time. We had one (the Structure of Earnings) but this has now been replaced by data from revenue files that do not distinguish full/part time.

Let it go. The median will be about 20 per cent below the mean.

stefanovich · 17-02-2021 4:08pm

Tommy Muscular Tether wrote: »

Minimum wage is about a tenner an hour which comes to 18-20k a year for a full time worker. So almost by definition anyone on less than that is not working full time, so shouldn't be used to work out the median full time wage.

As for the 100-150k bracket, when the rest of the brackets are increments of 5k or 10k and that one is an increment of 50k, it is going to capture more people.

17 - 20K 131,840
20 - 25K 217,946
25 - 27K 87,782
27 - 30K 124,223
30 - 35K 190,572
35 - 40K 166,339
40 - 50K 237,937
50 - 60K 169,338
60 - 70K 122,512
70 - 75K 48,838
75 - 80K 41,232
80 - 90K 64,390
90 - 100K 47,650
100 - 150K 107,186
150 - 200K 30,096
200 - 275K 15,520
>275K 15,054

Should be 35->40K range excluding under 17K

17-02-2021 4:15pm

stefanovich wrote: »

Should be 35->40K range excluding under 17K

I'd say this is fairly reasonable, would imagine it's in this bracket or marginally over 40k.

Benedict · 17-02-2021 4:23pm

crossman47 wrote: »

I've posted a few times that its not there and can't be there given the data sets we now use. If other countries have it, they must carry out a survey of individual workers and distinguish between full and part time. We had one (the Structure of Earnings) but this has now been replaced by data from revenue files that do not distinguish full/part time.

Let it go. The median will be about 20 per cent below the mean.

If the CSO is able to calculate the average FT wage (which they are), then they must be able to distinguish between FT and PT workers.
If they can say John is FT and Mary is PT then John's details must represent a separate unit for calculation purposes. John is a separate unit on a data sheet, they know who he is and that he is FT - and they have access to his income data and should be able to use it in calculating the median from taking all the "Johns" together.

The CSO already distinguish between FT and PT.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 4:32pm

Googling finds this, which is from the CSO, saying that in 2018 median annual earnings were €36,095. That's for all workers who worked at least 50 weeks in the year; median annual earnings for full-time workers would be higher, but we don't know by how much. Also, I notice that the subjects are referred to as "employees"; it's possible that this is acually the median earnings from employment, and that the median earnings for all workers, including the self-employed, would be different.

Geuze · 17-02-2021 4:48pm

Benedict wrote: »

Look Geuze, Leo is able to give a figure and say this is the average. He doesn't present us with a litany of "income by age" "income by sex" blah blah.

It's a single figure just below 49k

As far as you are aware:

(a) is there a figure for a median salary/wages for FT worker?
(b) do you know what it is?
(c) If you know, can you just say what it is ple-e-ease?
(d) If you don't know, then thanks anyway - but please say so.

Here I have a figure for median FT earnings, but it is from 2014:

41,829

that is in the sector: Industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)

That seems to be my best figure: 41,829 in 2014 for median annual earnings of FT workers.

Note: Ireland is blank for 2018.

crossman47 · 17-02-2021 5:20pm

Benedict wrote: »

If the CSO is able to calculate the average FT wage (which they are), then they must be able to distinguish between FT and PT workers.
If they can say John is FT and Mary is PT then John's details must represent a separate unit for calculation purposes. John is a separate unit on a data sheet, they know who he is and that he is FT - and they have access to his income data and should be able to use it in calculating the median from taking all the "Johns" together.

The CSO already distinguish between FT and PT.

No. Please read what I posted. CSO do not get details for John and Mary. They get an aggregate for all f/t and all p/t from employers in their survey. They get individual data from Revenue but these do not distinguish full and part time.

Benedict · 17-02-2021 5:44pm

crossman47 wrote: »

No. Please read what I posted. CSO do not get details for John and Mary. They get an aggregate for all f/t and all p/t from employers in their survey. They get individual data from Revenue but these do not distinguish full and part time.

I understand what you are saying. But the fact that CSO don't "get" things doesn't mean the can't "get" them.

And perhaps they should "get" them because they must exist.

In order to calculate the average wage for FT workers, the following data must be available:
(1) The number of FT workers and (2) what each FT worker earned.

If the CSO doesn't have these details then some other body does and they handed the results of their calculations to CSO.

But (1) and (2) have to exist on a spreadsheet somewhere for and average FT wage to have been arrived at. And therefore the median could be established with the click of a mouse.

(1) and (2) will provide sufficient data to calculate median.

Average V Median wage Ireland?

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