Cyberpunk - CD Project Red

johnny_ultimate · 30-09-2020 3:22am

And just to stress: it's also very possible to think CD Projekt make great games and have some great policies on the likes of DRM, while also calling them out when they do something a bit crappy.

pixelburp · 30-09-2020 8:57am

Kirby wrote: »

Long term crunch isn't good but this isn't that.

EVERY industry has crunch. You ever worked retail during Christmas? Or during times like black Friday? How about hotel staff during the same period? and on and on. None of them choose that either. It's a mandatory part of the job.

I'm wondering if you ever did crunch with that "that's life" attitude. I have, albeit for about a few 1,2 week stretches (on-off over a 3 month period) so very small in comparison to your Rockstars or CDPs; it was utter hell. Pulling down 12+ hour days, others slept overnight under their desk because they missed their last train home to Drogheda. I was a wreck, physically ill and mentally a disaster zone. I've never been so brittle and on the verge. And that was a couple of weeks - I left the job after those 3 months because I knoew I couldn't do that long term for every project. Cos EVERY project was "life or death" in the eyes of the owners / management. I've never been so drained, so bereft.

I've also worked retail during Christmas and it was a (comparitive) doddle. Primarily 'cos I got to go home when the store actually closed. I at least got cardio, regular breaks, and the ability to take something to eat in the canteen without a line manager hassling you about a pitch document or whatnot.

You're right. Every industry has crunch; but as someone who himself works in software development, I can tell you crunch only prospers in offices or teams with bad management. Retail workers still work retail hours. They still get to go home as opposed to this idea you gotta keep coding at 11pm because Management can't / won't structure a sprint to be humane. It's an industry tailor-made to be logistically easier to manage, roadmap and build products within a time-frame or capacity. The only thing forcing this situation is greed, and selfishness; any project can be organised within a normal working day if good management chooses to.

"That's how it always is" is not a reason, it's a thin excuse - and your analogy fails in that even retail workers can be often unionised. The games industry - and the tech industry as a whole - has no employee representation to step in and stop blatant abuses. Coupled with the notion that there are always more interns and starry-eyed developers keen to break their back off the promise of a foot in the door.

It's not a right of passage, it's just abusive, bad employment and worse management. Things are only a reality of life until they're not. I love CDP's work but the manner in whcih they just dovetail into crunch as a first response to their own self-imposed deadlines or expectations is shítty and they only have themselves to blame.

brevity · 30-09-2020 11:38am

Their biggest mistake was opening saying they "don't do crunch"... crunch happens from time to time, it's no ones fault per se, it's just getting a project out sometimes runs into unexpected problems.

I also work in the software development industry and there can be foolish idealized notion of being in the trenches, the comradery of it all, all hands on deck nonsense. It's bollocks. I worked in a start up and the silent exception of working extra hours for no extra pay or benefits was there for all to see. More fool me...

In saying that, if the crunch is outlined properly i.e.
1. It has a distinct end date
2. Paid overtime
3. Bonus/Reward/Time-off at the end of the project.

then I could be on board.

The thing also is, once it's released there is going to probably be a heap of support required - will crunch be required for this?

Cordell · 30-09-2020 11:56am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

*Forced* overtime.

Mandatory crunch can **** right off. Especially after CD Project pledged not to do so.

Not forced, they are free not to do it and walk away.
They're not a sweatshop out in a 3rd world country where it either that or starve. They are in a country in the EU with ample opportunities in the tech field, with plenty of bland corporate jobs available.

johnny_ultimate · 30-09-2020 12:03pm

Cordell wrote: »

Not forced, they are free not to do it and walk away.
They're not a sweatshop out in a 3rd world country where it either that or starve. They are in a country in the EU with ample opportunities in the tech field, with plenty of bland corporate jobs available.

So either suck up the mandatory six-day weeks or quit? Wow.

I just don’t get why people are so willing to defend what is clearly a bad practice by any standard labour and managerial perspective. Not only is it corporations exploiting workers (and there are degrees of exploitation - but we’re talking about a very specific example here on its own terms), but from a managerial perspective you’re driving workers towards burnout and inefficiency.

Working in a game studio isn’t some magical, dream job where you have to put up with anything they throw at you. It’s a tough, intense gig that is often precarious. Like every single job on the planet, workers deserve to be treated with respect and reasonable hours.

Varik · 30-09-2020 12:05pm

I don't care how the sausage is made, if anyone else does then they should do something about it other than praising the almost monthly Jason Schreier crunch article which don't seem to achieve anything.

johnny_ultimate · 30-09-2020 12:08pm

Varik wrote: »

which don't seem to achieve anything.

Actually, it does: https://kotaku.com/18-months-after-red-dead-redemption-2-rockstar-has-mad-1842880524

Cordell · 30-09-2020 12:11pm

I'm not defending anyone here, because no one needs defending.
The studio and publisher need to meet the deadline, because of preorders and sales opportunities, if they don't they will face cancelled preorders and competition from other games launching in December - e.g. AC:V
The employees have a choice of doing what needs to be done or find other ventures.
What they do is none of our business, and if we do anything about it will be not buying the game which will not help anyone.

And to be perfectly honest, since I already buy clothes and phones and computers made with much more questionable "working arrangements" I'm not going to worry about some lads paid well above average working overtime in cozy offices.

Varik · 30-09-2020 12:17pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Actually, it does: https://kotaku.com/18-months-after-red-dead-redemption-2-rockstar-has-mad-1842880524

So like when CDPR made some promises.

Edit:

Going by how lacklustre and delayed Rockstar's current seasons were I'd put money on another Schreier around December for them.

pixelburp · 30-09-2020 12:18pm

Cordell wrote: »

I'm not defending anyone here, because no one needs defending.
The studio and publisher need to meet the deadline, because of preorders and sales opportunities, if they don't they will face cancelled preorders and competition from other games launching in December - e.g. AC:V
The employees have a choice of doing what needs to be done or find other ventures.
What they do is none of our business, and if we do anything about it will be not buying the game which will not help anyone.

And to be perfectly honest, since I already buy clothes and phones and computers made with much more questionable "working arrangements" I'm not going to worry about some lads paid well above average working overtime in cozy offices.

The "choice" is a glib and slightly dispassionate myth: people have bills, mortgages, loans and dependents to support. It's nightmare enough to juggle the stress of an intense job, and the expectations and demands just to keep a roof over your & your family's head. It's much easier to find a new job when employed that's true, but when you're already working so much your body gives out it's next to impossible to find the mental or physical energy to ALSO job-hunt. You're doing well just to feed yourself or keep a decent sleep cycle.

Again, I feel for the drones in CDP 'cos I did it. Just taking a simple phonecall to chat to a recruiter or another company I applied for involved leaving the building, which had the knock-on effect of putting my behind schedule on work already demanded as perfection by day's end (I say end because of course that was 9, 10pm). It was actually doubly stressful just trying to get out of the job I walked into. Oh yes, it was my CHOICE, but I had (have) a mortgage I was just about ahead and a bunch of other requirements. Quitting put me in immediate financial danger - and the Notice Period was 3 months anyway. Jesus, what a hole of a place. Job hunting is a crapshoot at the best of times without the actual job you're currently in also making it hard just to get it together long enough to seem professional and coherent.

"Choice" is a reduction because it assumes switching jobs is itself an easy decision, done whenever you feel like it. I work in a relatively prosperous field with many openings - I can't imagine (say) Level Design is a particularly wide and generous field that the ever-stressed have a "choice" to just swap roles.

Cordell · 30-09-2020 12:23pm

I know how it goes, I've been there and did the crunch time. It is what it is.

pixelburp · 30-09-2020 12:25pm

Cordell wrote: »

I know how it goes, I've been there and did the crunch time. It is what it is.

Until it isn't. And it starts with highlighting shítty work practises in the more public domain dwelling companies. To whip out the extreme example and I own the hyperbole; child labour was a shoulder-shrugging reality until people stopped it through law. Zero hour contracts are being hounded out because of publicity and exposure as being inherently anti-employee and a legal Sword of Damacles.

Things don't get better until people at least talk about why they're crap in the first place. And putting the emphasis on the employee as their "choice" misses the mark.

Anyway, presumably now we're about to hit the phase of the discussion where folk appeal that they just want to talk about the game. "Take it to another thread!" etc. :rolleyes:

Cordell · 30-09-2020 12:36pm

It's not the same as child labor or workers that don't have much choice about going on zero hours contract. We're taking about highly skilled and talented individuals knowing how the game industry is before going in and still going in.
I'm sure they'd rather have the bonus than have us worrying about them.

Falthyron · 30-09-2020 12:49pm

Generally, crunch happens because middle management sell ideas that don't tally against budget and timelines. So, because a bunch of execs make promises they can't cash and have no idea how long it takes to develop what they are asking for, the workers get shafted. That's the issue here.

Exec: "We want to implement coop multiplayer"
Project Manager and Dev team: "That will require 6 months work, our best guess".
Exec: "You have 4 months."
Project Manager and Dev team: "Why? 4 isn't enough"
Exec: "We said we would release in 4 months and we have x amount of pre-orders to fulfill"

pixelburp · 30-09-2020 12:55pm

Cordell wrote: »

It's not the same as child labor or workers that don't have much choice about going on zero hours contract. We're taking about highly skilled and talented individuals knowing how the game industry is before going in and still going in.
I'm sure they'd rather have the bonus than have us worrying about them.

Exactly: skilled and talented in a still relatively niche industry, known as self-perpetuating in its practices - which can include withholding permanent contracts ala the Zero Hour issue (or, speaking of bonuses, tethering them to Metacritic scores as has/had been done in the past 'til it was highlighted in the public domain). It's not exactly a stable career at the best of times, but nor should it be treated as something akin to a Calling or Vocation either. I'm sure every employee wants to be well paid, have some degree of stability in their employment, with time enough to enjoy their lives; that's blindingly obvious. Especially those older, with families or strict commitments.

Talking about and shaming companies to bother their holes to put structure & good management is not a sin for upsetting a status quo - nor is it particularly difficult to achieve either. Yet somehow it's the responsibility and "choice" of employees to change, rather than the companies to do so? Unfair. The power structure runs entirely downwards in these companies and as with a lot of these things, external public opinion and pressure can be a more powerful tool than otherwise powerless employees speaking up and risking their already flimsy contracts.

The games industry puts pressure on itself to hit these milestones and deadlines, but it's the employees that pay the cheque for these bad, impatient decisions. Just because the "sausage" is made that way doesn't mean it should always be thus. And I daresay can be done without affecting customers' access to their shiny new toys.

This is an instance where yes, everyone can get what they want IMO. There's no real sacrafice needed here, beyond time and effort to make things a little better.

johnny_ultimate · 30-09-2020 12:55pm

The thing about crunch is it’s an eminently solvable problem. It’s easy to understand - we all know what the reaction would be like if we were told to suddenly work six day weeks for a month after being explicitly told that wouldn’t be the case. And crucially there are clear, workable and feasible ways to address it - unionisation, better project management, even just hiring more staff to get the job done (CD Projekt often boast about their financial ‘war chest’, after all).

Nobody is saying it’s on the same level as child labour or the other systemic examples of exploitation in the global economy. But those are deeply-rooted, fundamental problems that require nothing less than a radical overhaul of global political and economic systems to really address (although brilliant campaigners and journalists have done so much to at least incrementally improve the situation). These issues often arise in deeply secretive places with authoritarian regimes - even reporting on them is a massive challenge, let alone invoking the sort of changes needed. It’s a decades-long process.

Crunch in one Polish game studio is something that’s comparatively far more immediately fixable. We’re talking solely in the context of that. And as we’ve seen reporting on these issues has got the wheels of change moving, so it’s far from a futile exercise to call out the studios who do it.

pixelburp · 30-09-2020 1:04pm

"Hire more people" is a weird solution in my experience, because while on the face of it is done to lighten the load - can often have the complete reverse result.

So managers look at the larger staff and say "great, we can fit all this extra work now!" rather than try to achieve the original parity; thus the office is then trapped again in overloaded Sprints. Happened with my wife's own office only in the last 12 months with that exact scenario: they needed more heads to help with the load; more heads were hired; so the load became larger because management saw they could take it. But they can't just stop delivering what's asked of them because that reflects badly when Assessments roll around. So the solution? Hire even MORE heads!

As always, it's management. It's only and ever management's "choice" to lighten the load, or communicate the workflows and schedules. And if the drones can deliver, even if it means breaking their backs to do it, then from management's POV they can do it again next time a little push is needed. So it goes.

brevity · 30-09-2020 1:07pm

pixelburp wrote: »

"Hire more people" is a weird solution in my experience, because while on the face of it is done to lighten the load - can often have the complete reverse result.

Mythical man month

Homelander · 30-09-2020 1:11pm

Six weeks of paid crunch time before the launch of one of the most anticipated games of all time.

I'm not really getting the shock and outrage.

There are certain periods of almost any job that involve crunch time in some way, shape or form. And worst, in most jobs, it's not compensated...in this case, all the overtime is being paid.

100% not a big deal in the context of the game being talked about.

ERG89 · 30-09-2020 1:39pm

You'd think a game that was delayed twice wouldn't need a final mandatory crunch sprint but its obvious there are still issues that remain at CDPR which were pointed out on Glassdoor reviews a few years ago.

Cordell · 30-09-2020 1:43pm

brevity wrote: »

Mythical man month

9 women can deliver a baby in 1 month.

Benzino · 30-09-2020 1:51pm

Money can't make up for the lost time with your kids, family or friends. It can't fix the stress or mental drain crunch can have on a person, or the relationships lost. A company is choosing profitability over the well being of their employees, they should be rightly condemned for it. You don't need to protest or cancel your pre-order, but you should at least condemn it in my opinion.

Dyr · 30-09-2020 2:18pm

J. Marston wrote: »

It's a month of paid overtime. What's the big deal?

Employees working paid overtime scandal, its a nothingburger.

Schrier needed attention and bedwetting doesnt cut it as an adult

Mr Crispy · 30-09-2020 2:27pm

People are just being deliberately obtuse now. Little point in continuing.

Dyr · 30-09-2020 2:29pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Here's CD Projekt last May pledging there'd be no mandatory crunch. They've broken a clear pledge to staff, simple as that. https://kotaku.com/as-cyberpunk-2077-development-intensifies-cd-projekt-r-1834849725

Is a month or so of paid crunch that bad? Compared to some horror stories, no. I don't think anyone would object to there being some extra work required to get a project over the line. But forcing staff to do six-day weeks so for over a month, after pledging not too, is frankly pretty crappy - and I don't think any company should resort to it. And all this in the best case scenario that staff haven't been working intensely for months or even years already.

This is your "pledge" here, yeah?

“We’ve been working toward it for some time already,” Iwiński said. “We’ve been communicating clearly to people that of course there are certain moments where we need to work harder—like I think the E3 demo is a pretty good example—but we want to be more humane and treat people with respect. If they need to take time off, they can take time off. Nobody will be frowned upon if this will be requested.”

This is why companies should never, ever talk to Schrier, but they'll learn over time

I've been woken up at 5 am on weekends to get into work and fix something, I've had to pull 12 hour and beyond shifts, sometimes for days, its part of the gig and its reflected in my wages. If I was being asked to do it week in , week out I'd refuse but I'm not and CDPR devs arent either.

Cordell · 30-09-2020 2:53pm

You won't like the games that will come out of 5 days a week, 9-5:30, 2 week sprints with daily standups places, that's all that I'm saying.

SomeSayKos · 30-09-2020 2:59pm

Some lovely aul characters on this forum....

johnny_ultimate · 30-09-2020 3:07pm

Am I so out of touch that a company mandating staff to work six-day weeks is not a great look?

No. It’s the journalist who is wrong.

Markitron · 30-09-2020 3:20pm

I'm against crunch but I will still buy the game on day one.

I am the real villain here.

Cordell · 30-09-2020 3:26pm

I will buy the game if it's good. Nothing else matters.

CatInABox · 30-09-2020 3:35pm

I will wait a good bit before buying, because a game that needs mandatory crunch from a company that made a pledge not to do mandatory crunch doesn't inspire confidence in the stability of the game.

Markitron · 30-09-2020 3:38pm

Cordell wrote: »

I will buy the game if it's good. Nothing else matters.

No the way they treat their staff definitely matters, I am just weak.

CatInABox wrote: »

I will wait a good bit before buying, because a game that needs mandatory crunch from a company that made a pledge not to do mandatory crunch, doesn't inspire confidence in the stability of the game.

Every game you ever loved has probably required mandatory crunch to some extent, and almost all of them probably never had any intention of doing it.

Cordell · 30-09-2020 3:45pm

I am just weak

Me too, on the account that I won't have any care left after I finish caring about real problems.

Markitron · 30-09-2020 3:55pm

Cordell wrote: »

Me too, on the account that I won't have any care left after I finish caring about real problems.

There is another word for that and it isn't weak.

FAILSAFE 00 · 30-09-2020 5:11pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Am I so out of touch that a company mandating staff to work six-day weeks is not a great look?

No. It’s the journalist who is wrong.

Calling Jason Schreier a journalist, you are out of touch lol.

gizmo · 30-09-2020 8:02pm

CD Projekt’s Chief Financial Officier Piotr Nielubowicz responded to Bloomberg questions in an email saying that Cyberpunk’s Nov. 19 launch date won’t be changed, adding that the studio is working to eliminate most bugs at “the last straight,” -- the main reason it asked employees to work an extra day.

Wait, so if they mandated the employees to work seven days a week, the game would ship with less bugs? Why don't they just do that then?

30-09-2020 8:29pm

This could be the first game I pre-order since I got badly burned on Fallout 4

Zero-Cool · 01-10-2020 10:27am

Alright CDPR, the crunch is forgiven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8qJc6znzZc

brady12 · 01-10-2020 10:38am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This could be the first game I pre-order since I got badly burned on Fallout 4

Ages Since I pre ordered aswel . If I want a disc copy guaranteed for release day where be best place get one online ? amazon ? Might just go Argos or GameStop

Markitron · 01-10-2020 10:59am

brady12 wrote: »

Ages Since I pre ordered aswel . If I want a disc copy guaranteed for release day where be best place get one online ? amazon ? Might just go Argos or GameStop

https://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/video-games-and-tablets/pre-order-games/playstation-4-pre-order-games/cyberpunk-2077-ps4/p/179700

Only €55 if you pre-order for in-store pickup

Robert ninja · 01-10-2020 11:40am

I'll wait a week or so after launch for performance and compatibility reports to come in. Think I've only pre ordered once in my life because I caved to some bonus stuff (and literally my fave game ever). Never again, though.

DrSpongeBobz · 01-10-2020 6:39pm

Teaser trailer for this game was 7 years ago lol

Vicxas · 01-10-2020 7:32pm

DrSpongeBobz wrote: »

Teaser trailer for this game was 7 years ago lol

I remember watching it and thinking it was a Deus Ex rip off.

I've have a six year old child, the bloody teaser trailer is older than him....

biggebruv · 01-10-2020 11:33pm

DrSpongeBobz wrote: »

Teaser trailer for this game was 7 years ago lol

The thing to remember is they are most likely looking at GTAVs performance a game still raking in cash even though it was released in 2013 and most likely hoping to replicate that

The attention to details really helps sell these worlds and it being the best it can be will go a long way in the end compared to say Ubisoft games which seem to just come and go year in year out

Then with a multiplayer portion set to be released they will be hoping for gtav type success

KilOit · 02-10-2020 9:31am

Where are people buying this on PC, not sure if I should get it on steam/cd key site or epic store with 10€ voucher. I'm thinking steam if It has a good multiplayer side

MiskyBoyy · 02-10-2020 9:34am

KilOit wrote: »

Where are people buying this on PC, not sure if I should get it on steam/cd key site or epic store with 10€ voucher. I'm thinking steam if It has a good multiplayer side

There's only one answer for that.

https://www.gog.com/game/cyberpunk_2077

Markitron · 02-10-2020 9:34am

KilOit wrote: »

Where are people buying this on PC, not sure if I should get it on steam/cd key site or epic store with 10€ voucher. I'm thinking steam if It has a good multiplayer side

The multiplayer for this probably won't be out until well into next year, even then it might be some kind of separate thing. I wouldn't factor it into your decision right now.

Smiles35 · 02-10-2020 9:43am

MiskyBoyy wrote: »

There's only one answer for that.

https://www.gog.com/game/cyberpunk_2077

Yes. The only answer. GOG is owned by the developers so every penny goes to CDPR.

Smiles35 · 02-10-2020 10:42am

DrSpongeBobz wrote: »

Teaser trailer for this game was 7 years ago lol

It took me 7 years to realise the depth of that trailer. The whole premis of the game is control and danger. You have the Max-Tac officer, and other armed profesionals in the game. The people in control have a myriad list of ways to do a doll attached to strings job on your life. Your more in control doing that type of work, and will remain a little more so than others, should the powers that be decide on a ''fun'' change in your life for you.

I thought it was great match in itself, the game being made by people from Poland. Might have some of that Cold War, ''What do we do with all this achievement'' humour in it. Most of yous have seen Sexmission yeah? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexmission

It's not just that though. I realised through writing a bit. When people have such control of your lives, people will laugh at others. And laugh hard. The people with power can do anything they like to people. It's a great opportunity to extract humor, experiance the emotion of the powerless and hear the stories about that from the powerfull.

Robert ninja · 02-10-2020 11:36am

KilOit wrote: »

Where are people buying this on PC

I'll be getting it on Steam for its Proton compatibility tool assuming I can even run it thanks to the decision to use DX12 instead of Vulkan.

Cyberpunk - CD Project Red

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