Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

CatInABox · 20-10-2018 6:38pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't really remember this complaint in this thread, tbh.

In fairness, there definitely was criticism, so SG is right on that. This is much improved from DB, they did a good job on it this time.

I'd disagree with the rest of what SG says though, Dublin Bus aren't held to a higher standard, people will be on here complaining about Irish Rail, GoAhead, anyone really. The only reason that complaints about Dublin Bus seem more prevalent is because there's more of them. That's not to say that Dublin Bus are worse than any other transport company, that's merely a result of the fact that Dublin Bus has more passengers than almost any other transport company in Ireland.

MJohnston · 20-10-2018 6:48pm

I feel like most people here who constantly criticise Dublin Bus are pro-passenger, rather than anti-anything.

john boye · 20-10-2018 8:00pm

SG317 wrote: »

For those that were giving Dublin Bus an extremely hard time, for not posting the transfer of routes 45A, 59, 63 and 75, until the second day of the routes being operated by Go Ahead. Dublin Bus has announced in advance that routes 111, 184 and 185 will be operated by Go Ahead from tomorrow, they have even posted a picture of Go Ahead's logo. Interestingly enough though those same people that constantly blame Dublin Bus for just about everything eventhough it's not Dublin Bus's fault, I don't find them here now praising Dublin Bus for this move. Especially considering they have even mentioned there will be timetable changes. Maybe it just doesn't suit some people's anti-Dublin Bus agenda. Sorry for the rant, it is just frustrating how Dublin Bus is given such a hard time by some people and held to some ridiculously high standards compared to other operators and transport organisations.

With that username it kind of seems like it might be someone else who has an agenda

dfx- · 20-10-2018 8:24pm

I saw a GA bus last night on the 75. Why did it have different upholstery?

StreetLight · 20-10-2018 8:59pm

dfx- wrote: »

I saw a GA bus last night on the 75. Why did it have different upholstery?

Was it a recent new-build ordered directly by the NTA for GA, rather than a transfer from DB?

dfx- · 20-10-2018 9:01pm

why not order it new with the same design?

L1011 · 20-10-2018 9:03pm

dfx- wrote: »

why not order it new with the same design?

Because the old moquette is DBs - they don't remove it from any buses sold/transferred (never did) but it is their design.

WomanSkirtFan8 · 20-10-2018 9:38pm

dfx- wrote: »

I saw a GA bus last night on the 75. Why did it have different upholstery?

Could have been ex-DB.

punisher5112 · 20-10-2018 10:11pm

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Could have been ex-DB.

The 2018 batch came with none yellow bars inside which they then had to change as to see them.

The seat covers are different too on the batch that came straight from wright.

rorybyrne7 · 20-10-2018 10:58pm

I have a friend who drives for GAI and he was telling me they are breaking the law by having drivers driving for 5 and a half hours without a break yet all cpc courses tell you it's 4 and 3 quarter hours for driving. They also don't pay over time if your rota is 44 or 45 hours long then they only pay you a flat rate for that many hours were drivers were told anything over 39 hours was paid at over time. These are a joke I don't think I be running to work for these people full of false promises.

CatInABox · 20-10-2018 11:19pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

I have a friend who drives for GAI and he was telling me they are breaking the law by having drivers driving for 5 and a half hours without a brake yet all cpc courses tell you it's 4 and 3 quarter hours for driving. They also don't pay over time if your rota is 44 or 45 hours long then they only pay you a flat rate for that many hours were drivers were told anything over 39 hours was paid at over time. These are a joke I don't think I be running to work for these people full of false promises.

Interesting that this is your first post.

I have a friend who drives for GAI and he tells me that they're are giving out gold bars to all the drivers.

belfast stephen · 20-10-2018 11:36pm

If The driver is driving for 5 hours 30 they they are not breaking the law as under EU Domestic driving hours they can drive for 5 hours 30 with out a break

coylemj · 20-10-2018 11:37pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

I have a friend who drives for GAI and he was telling me they are breaking the law by having drivers driving for 5 and a half hours without a brake ....

If you drove a bus without a brake, you'd be doing well to drive it for 5 minutes, let alone 5 and a half hours.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 20-10-2018 11:40pm

belfast stephen wrote: »

If The driver is driving for 5 hours 30 they they are not breaking the law as under EU Domestic driving hours they can drive for 5 hours 30 with out a break

What about regular employment law that states you are legally entitled to a break after 4 and half hours of work ?

Bearing in mind, Dublin bus do this also so it's not new.

coylemj · 20-10-2018 11:43pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

What about regular employment law that states you are legally entitled to a break after 4 and half hours of work ?

The entitlement to a break simply means that you clock up the entitlement, it doesn't mean that you have to stop work after that time and cannot work a minute longer.

rorybyrne7 · 20-10-2018 11:52pm

so why is this not up on the rsa web site that you can drive for this long do they not enforce the laws? If you had an accident and they founded that you drove over your 4 and 3 quarter hours would the gardai excuse you because your bosses said it was OK to do this?

rorybyrne7 · 20-10-2018 11:54pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Interesting that this is your first post.

I have a friend who drives for GAI and he tells me that they're are giving out gold bars to all the drivers.

I have just come across this thread!

Stephen15 · 21-10-2018 12:01am

I thought trucks were covered under EU tacho regulatations but buses only covered under domestic regulatations.

Stephen15 · 21-10-2018 12:04am

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Could have been ex-DB.

All ex DB buses still have DB interiors. Honestly it dosen't make a difference most London buses all have different upholstery depending on the company operating them.

rorybyrne7 · 21-10-2018 12:13am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I thought trucks were covered under EU tacho regulatations but buses only covered under domestic regulatations.

not according to RSA web site I may be wrong I don't drive myself.

soundman45 · 21-10-2018 2:08am

Dublin Bus and Go Ahead do not have to use tachograph for driving hours and are free to drive over 4hrs 30m at a time. Do Dublin bus drivers not do extra hours such as double days etc still. When i drove for them drivers on earlies would do a middle or late duty after finishing their duty and drivers on lates would do Nitelinks etc as overtime. Dunno about Go Ahead overtime but other operators pay flat hourly rates regardless of hours worked so its not uncommon. Also they are free to do so, so stop comparing them to Dublin Bus as they are 2 seperate companies with different pay rates and conditions . If your "friend" is unhappy why does he not drive for DB.

punisher5112 · 21-10-2018 8:03am

soundman45 wrote: »

Dublin Bus and Go Ahead do not have to use tachograph for driving hours and are free to drive over 4hrs 30m at a time. Do Dublin bus drivers not do extra hours such as double days etc still. When i drove for them drivers on earlies would do a middle or late duty after finishing their duty and drivers on lates would do Nitelinks etc as overtime. Dunno about Go Ahead overtime but other operators pay flat hourly rates regardless of hours worked so its not uncommon. Also they are free to do so, so stop comparing them to Dublin Bus as they are 2 seperate companies with different pay rates and conditions . If your "friend" is unhappy why does he not drive for DB.

Double days no not a hope anymore.

rorybyrne7 · 21-10-2018 9:06am

soundman45 wrote: »

Dublin Bus and Go Ahead do not have to use tachograph for driving hours and are free to drive over 4hrs 30m at a time. Do Dublin bus drivers not do extra hours such as double days etc still. When i drove for them drivers on earlies would do a middle or late duty after finishing their duty and drivers on lates would do Nitelinks etc as overtime. Dunno about Go Ahead overtime but other operators pay flat hourly rates regardless of hours worked so its not uncommon. Also they are free to do so, so stop comparing them to Dublin Bus as they are 2 seperate companies with different pay rates and conditions . If your "friend" is unhappy why does he not drive for DB.

who is comparing them to Dublin Bus ?
All I was saying was I would not be in a hurry to work for GAI as they seem to be breaking a few laws and their pay is not great.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 21-10-2018 10:00am

coylemj wrote: »

The entitlement to a break simply means that you clock up the entitlement, it doesn't mean that you have to stop work after that time and cannot work a minute longer.

But this is my arguement, and I've had rows in Dublin bus over this

If I'm working for 4 and a half hours and want my break, which I did, I was told where to go with myself and flat out refused.

Why are they getting away with it !

soundman45 · 21-10-2018 10:05am

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

who is comparing them to Dublin Bus ?
All I was saying was I would not be in a hurry to work for GAI as they seem to be breaking a few laws and their pay is not great.

But they are not breaking any laws as far as I can see. Please let us know what laws they break and if you have valid proof of such why not complain to the relevant agencies about it.

CramCycle · 21-10-2018 10:12am

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

who is comparing them to Dublin Bus ?
All I was saying was I would not be in a hurry to work for GAI as they seem to be breaking a few laws and their pay is not great.

Not sure about the breaking the law bit but it's not like GAI lied about pay. Their operations manager said as much in an interview. Less than DB but typically more than private operators. I suspect many private operators still do another of cash in hand hence why they look so low but it doesn't change the fact that while low to DB it's not a terrible pay packet and obviously it's good enough or they wouldn't have gotten drivers in the current market. Having known a few drivers for private operators, I imagine some would happily jump over for steady pay and no messing with predictable hours week to week.

rorybyrne7 · 21-10-2018 11:18am

CramCycle wrote: »

Not sure about the breaking the law bit but it's not like GAI lied about pay. Their operations manager said as much in an interview. Less than DB but typically more than private operators. I suspect many private operators still do another of cash in hand hence why they look so low but it doesn't change the fact that while low to DB it's not a terrible pay packet and obviously it's good enough or they wouldn't have gotten drivers in the current market. Having known a few drivers for private operators, I imagine some would happily jump over for steady pay and no messing with predictable hours week to week.

well you show me on the rsa web site where it shows that a driver can drive for 5 and a half hours before taking a break. I operate my own bus for school runs and have done for years and never heard this why don't they teach this on CPC courses. it's legal in England this domestic hours or whatever it is they call it but we are in Ireland Here.

rorybyrne7 · 21-10-2018 11:20am

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

well you show me on the rsa web site where it shows that a driver can drive for 5 and a half hours before taking a break. I operate my own bus for school runs and have done for years and never heard this why don't they teach this on CPC courses. it's legal in England this domestic hours or whatever it is they call it but we are in Ireland Here.

this is what I'm looking at

devnull · 21-10-2018 11:35am

Real Time seems to be working for the 111, 184, 185 at the moment, so certainly an improvement on the first phase!

soundman45 · 21-10-2018 11:59am

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

But this is my arguement, and I've had rows in Dublin bus over this

If I'm working for 4 and a half hours and want my break, which I did, I was told where to go with myself and flat out refused.

Why are they getting away with it !

You are not driving on a tacho so are not entitled to a break after 4.5 hours. If you drive for 5hrs 40m its a workout as per union agreement is it not????

rorybyrne7 · 21-10-2018 12:01pm

soundman45 wrote: »

You are not driving on a tacho so are not entitled to a break after 4.5 hours. If you drive for 5hrs 40m its a workout as per union agreement is it not????

so why do they not put that on their site and let people know this because I'm reading that as breaking the law.

soundman45 · 21-10-2018 12:02pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

this is what I'm looking at

You ae looking at laws for drivers of HGV and coaches not city services such as DB/Go Ahead/Aircoach who all operate within 50km of their depot and are tacho exempt. Aircoach drivers do 12hr shifts at times.

KD345 · 21-10-2018 12:12pm

Top marks to the NTA/TFI for this morning. The real time apps are all working, new timetables have been installed at stops (including stops which had no panels previously). The bus destinations are all accurate and there was a large presence of information staff at Bray Station handing out new timetables.

All that needs to be done now is to replace the temporary timetables from the first phase for the 45a, 63, 75 etc. At many stops the new timetable has been placed next to the old timetable in the panel which is confusing.

The Go-Ahead twitter account is also active today which is good to see.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 21-10-2018 12:16pm

soundman45 wrote: »

You are not driving on a tacho so are not entitled to a break after 4.5 hours. If you drive for 5hrs 40m its a workout as per union agreement is it not????

Leaving tacho law aside and just looking at Irish employment law, how is anyone getting away with making you "Work" for over 4 and half hours without a break. Driving or not driving.

Also no, there are many duties where you could work 5hours 20mins before a break and do another 3 and half to 4 Hours after the break. Workouts have decreased in numbers.

Also union agreements don't override law despite what some drivers think.

devnull · 21-10-2018 12:38pm

https://twitter.com/TFIupdates/status/1053971100290420741

BowWow · 21-10-2018 12:46pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

I may be wrong I don't drive myself.

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

I operate my own bus for school runs and have done for years

.

soundman45 · 21-10-2018 1:08pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Leaving tacho law aside and just looking at Irish employment law, how is anyone getting away with making you "Work" for over 4 and half hours without a break. Driving or not driving.

Also no, there are many duties where you could work 5hours 20mins before a break and do another 3 and half to 4 Hours after the break. Workouts have decreased in numbers.

Also union agreements don't override law despite what some drivers think.

Yes but unions do not agree to work practices that do break the law, also having to work for a little over 5hrs at a time is working in the real world, if not happy you only have one real option and search for a job in utopia where everything is perfect.

soundman45 · 21-10-2018 1:10pm

BowWow wrote: »

.

Well spotted. It was obvious from the content of his posts he was only here to stir up trouble and had no clue on the topics he raised.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 21-10-2018 1:15pm

soundman45 wrote: »

Yes but unions do not agree to work practices that do break the law, also having to work for a little over 5hrs at a time is working in the real world, if not happy you only have one real option and search for a job in utopia where everything is perfect.

Well I don't work for Dublin bus anymore and am in a job where we don't "WORK" for more than 4 and half hours without a break.

It still doesn't defend the fact they are breaking the law.

Dublin bus is the only employer I've ever had that implemented that work tactic by the way, never before have I worked over 4 Hours and 30 mins with some form of minimum 30 mins break in line with employment law.

But thank you for your very informative reply none the less......

end of the road · 21-10-2018 1:36pm

BowWow wrote: »

.

he could operate it as in, he owns and manages it but doesn't drive it. he could be clearer on what he means by operate however.

rorybyrne7 · 21-10-2018 1:43pm

soundman45 wrote: »

Well spotted. It was obvious from the content of his posts he was only here to stir up trouble and had no clue on the topics he raised.

I'm not here to stir up trouble I'm here to find out the truth about driving hours, I put the documents up from the RSA website that show what the legal hours are. Can you show me anything different that shows about the 5 and a half hours?
I'm not here for hear say I'm looking for facts.

BowWow · 21-10-2018 1:46pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

I'm not here to stir up trouble I'm here to find out the truth about driving hours, I put the documents up from the RSA website that show what the legal hours are. Can you show me anything different that shows about the 5 and a half hours?
I'm not here for hear say I'm looking for facts.

As the owner, operator and manager of, but seemingly not the driver of, your own school bus is this not information you should know?

rorybyrne7 · 21-10-2018 1:58pm

BowWow wrote: »

As the owner, operator and manager of, but seemingly not the driver of, your own school bus is this not information you should know?

judging by the way you are defending this argument I can only guess that you work for GAI?

AlekSmart · 21-10-2018 2:36pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

I'm not here to stir up trouble I'm here to find out the truth about driving hours, I put the documents up from the RSA website that show what the legal hours are. Can you show me anything different that shows about the 5 and a half hours?
I'm not here for hear say I'm looking for facts.

If,as you suggest,you are involved in the operation of a Passenger Carrying business,there is not only an expectation,but a requirement for you,or an approved Transport Manager,employed by you to be fully aware of the legislation and to ensure that it is complied with.

The RSA document,you reference,related very specifically to EU Regulation 561/2006,usually referred to as "EU rules".

The document very specifically relates to DRIVING hours.

However,throughout the European Union,members can avail of derogations and other arrangements which,usually,see various "Domestic" regulations being followed.

The important element here,is that Ireland is not at all unique in this situation.

The arrival of the EU Working Time Directive (2002/15 EC) imposed additional constraints upon working hours,initially for static employees.

Mobile workers,were included in the WTD from 2005,bearing in mind that the Working Time Directive refers exactly that...WORK,which can include other activities apart from driving.

Whilst the WTD allows for a period of 6 Hours WORK before a 30 min break is required,the 4.5 hours driving time remains in place for EC 561 covered drivers.

The situation regarding workouts and similar can best be explained,by referencing the actual scheduled time spent driving on the particular board,as generally,at least one,or more of the trips operated will have a degree of recovery time built in.

This is not unique to CIE operations,and can be found wherever Bus Scheduling is practiced.

It is the reason the industry employs "Schedulers" in attempts to ensure drivers actually cover their duties in as an efficient manner as can be devised.

It is worth bearing in mind,that any,initially generous looking,work-out duty,will inevitably be recovered by the inclusion of other duties elsewhere in the schedule which work drivers all the way to the Legal Limits.

Section 114 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 also contains some relevant information on DOMESTIC regulations.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/114/enacted/en/html

Limitations on periods of continuous driving.

114.—(1) Each of the following periods or series of periods of driving shall be an excessive period for the purposes of this section:

(a) any continuous period of driving exceeding five and one-half hours;

The inclusion of the word continuous is of some importance when referencing what exactly Irish law does,or does not permit.

It is also worth noting in relation to the Working Time Act,that there are flexibilities allowed once agreed by the workforce.

Exceptions
In the case of mobile workers, the directive allows some flexibility if a collective
agreement is in place. For instance, you may extend the reference period from
four months to six months when calculating the average 48-hour week. You
may also extend the 10-hour night limit, although mobile workers will still have
to obey the rest requirements of the eU Rules on drivers Hours. If a collective
agreement is in place, employers and employees should sign up to the agreement and be familiar with its terms.
if you are a self-employed driver, you can also avail of the flexibility regarding the
reference periods and the extension to the 10-hour night time limit on the basis
that it helps you to organise your work.

None of the above,takes from the fact that Drivers hours legislation throughout the World is an absolute minefield,with a direct confrontation between Drivers who want to work 24/7,employers who want them to work 25...and saner types who belatedly see the value of a day off every now and then....;)

soundman45 · 21-10-2018 2:47pm

Thank you Aleksmart. I was going to search and post similar but had a busy morning. Amazing the amount of posts here from people who seems to have little knowledge of the transport industry.

Stephen15 · 21-10-2018 5:47pm

https://twitter.com/TFIupdates/status/1054050878322368513?s=19

Stephen15 · 21-10-2018 6:39pm

Outdated 111, 184 and 185 timetables still on DB website.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/185-/

CramCycle · 21-10-2018 8:51pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

well you show me on the rsa web site where it shows that a driver can drive for 5 and a half hours before taking a break. I operate my own bus for school runs and have done for years and never heard this why don't they teach this on CPC courses. it's legal in England this domestic hours or whatever it is they call it but we are in Ireland Here.

you show me where a DB or GAI driver drives continuously for 5 hours.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Well I don't work for Dublin bus anymore and am in a job where we don't "WORK" for more than 4 and half hours without a break.

It still doesn't defend the fact they are breaking the law.

Dublin bus is the only employer I've ever had that implemented that work tactic by the way, never before have I worked over 4 Hours and 30 mins with some form of minimum 30 mins break in line with employment law.

But thank you for your very informative reply none the less......

You are entitled to is my understanding and I could be wrong. I always thought DB drivers accepted it because you were not officially taking a break at end stops, so unlike minimum wage workers where your boss would not pay for that break you are entitled to, you accepted it as quid pro quo. You got a break but you got paid for it.

Stephen15 · 21-10-2018 9:16pm

Saw a double decker ex DB SG today on the 111 which I thought was going to be operated by single deckers only. Only passenger on board was a GAI employee.

loyatemu · 21-10-2018 9:35pm

lots of 184s going through Greystones today - all single deckers.

Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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