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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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    #2582
    rorybyrne7
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭rorybyrne7


    soundman45 wrote: »
    You are not driving on a tacho so are not entitled to a break after 4.5 hours. If you drive for 5hrs 40m its a workout as per union agreement is it not????

    so why do they not put that on their site and let people know this because I'm reading that as breaking the law.


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    #2583
    soundman45
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭soundman45


    rorybyrne7 wrote: »
    this is what I'm looking at

    You ae looking at laws for drivers of HGV and coaches not city services such as DB/Go Ahead/Aircoach who all operate within 50km of their depot and are tacho exempt. Aircoach drivers do 12hr shifts at times.


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    #2584
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Top marks to the NTA/TFI for this morning. The real time apps are all working, new timetables have been installed at stops (including stops which had no panels previously). The bus destinations are all accurate and there was a large presence of information staff at Bray Station handing out new timetables.

    All that needs to be done now is to replace the temporary timetables from the first phase for the 45a, 63, 75 etc. At many stops the new timetable has been placed next to the old timetable in the panel which is confusing.

    The Go-Ahead twitter account is also active today which is good to see.


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    #2585
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    soundman45 wrote: »
    You are not driving on a tacho so are not entitled to a break after 4.5 hours. If you drive for 5hrs 40m its a workout as per union agreement is it not????

    Leaving tacho law aside and just looking at Irish employment law, how is anyone getting away with making you "Work" for over 4 and half hours without a break. Driving or not driving.

    Also no, there are many duties where you could work 5hours 20mins before a break and do another 3 and half to 4 Hours after the break. Workouts have decreased in numbers.

    Also union agreements don't override law despite what some drivers think.


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    #2586
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    https://twitter.com/TFIupdates/status/1053971100290420741


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    #2587
    BowWow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭BowWow


    rorybyrne7 wrote: »
    I may be wrong I don't drive myself.
    rorybyrne7 wrote: »
    I operate my own bus for school runs and have done for years

    .


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    #2588
    soundman45
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭soundman45


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Leaving tacho law aside and just looking at Irish employment law, how is anyone getting away with making you "Work" for over 4 and half hours without a break. Driving or not driving.

    Also no, there are many duties where you could work 5hours 20mins before a break and do another 3 and half to 4 Hours after the break. Workouts have decreased in numbers.

    Also union agreements don't override law despite what some drivers think.
    Yes but unions do not agree to work practices that do break the law, also having to work for a little over 5hrs at a time is working in the real world, if not happy you only have one real option and search for a job in utopia where everything is perfect.


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    #2589
    soundman45
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭soundman45


    BowWow wrote: »
    .

    Well spotted. It was obvious from the content of his posts he was only here to stir up trouble and had no clue on the topics he raised.


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    #2590
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    soundman45 wrote: »
    Yes but unions do not agree to work practices that do break the law, also having to work for a little over 5hrs at a time is working in the real world, if not happy you only have one real option and search for a job in utopia where everything is perfect.

    Well I don't work for Dublin bus anymore and am in a job where we don't "WORK" for more than 4 and half hours without a break.

    It still doesn't defend the fact they are breaking the law.

    Dublin bus is the only employer I've ever had that implemented that work tactic by the way, never before have I worked over 4 Hours and 30 mins with some form of minimum 30 mins break in line with employment law.

    But thank you for your very informative reply none the less......


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    #2591
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,000 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    BowWow wrote: »
    .


    he could operate it as in, he owns and manages it but doesn't drive it. he could be clearer on what he means by operate however.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #2592
    rorybyrne7
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭rorybyrne7


    soundman45 wrote: »
    Well spotted. It was obvious from the content of his posts he was only here to stir up trouble and had no clue on the topics he raised.

    I'm not here to stir up trouble I'm here to find out the truth about driving hours, I put the documents up from the RSA website that show what the legal hours are. Can you show me anything different that shows about the 5 and a half hours?
    I'm not here for hear say I'm looking for facts.


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    #2593
    BowWow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭BowWow


    rorybyrne7 wrote: »
    I'm not here to stir up trouble I'm here to find out the truth about driving hours, I put the documents up from the RSA website that show what the legal hours are. Can you show me anything different that shows about the 5 and a half hours?
    I'm not here for hear say I'm looking for facts.

    As the owner, operator and manager of, but seemingly not the driver of, your own school bus is this not information you should know?


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    #2594
    rorybyrne7
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭rorybyrne7


    BowWow wrote: »
    As the owner, operator and manager of, but seemingly not the driver of, your own school bus is this not information you should know?

    judging by the way you are defending this argument I can only guess that you work for GAI?


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    #2595
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    rorybyrne7 wrote: »
    I'm not here to stir up trouble I'm here to find out the truth about driving hours, I put the documents up from the RSA website that show what the legal hours are. Can you show me anything different that shows about the 5 and a half hours?
    I'm not here for hear say I'm looking for facts.

    If,as you suggest,you are involved in the operation of a Passenger Carrying business,there is not only an expectation,but a requirement for you,or an approved Transport Manager,employed by you to be fully aware of the legislation and to ensure that it is complied with.

    The RSA document,you reference,related very specifically to EU Regulation 561/2006,usually referred to as "EU rules".

    The document very specifically relates to DRIVING hours.

    However,throughout the European Union,members can avail of derogations and other arrangements which,usually,see various "Domestic" regulations being followed.

    The important element here,is that Ireland is not at all unique in this situation.

    The arrival of the EU Working Time Directive (2002/15 EC) imposed additional constraints upon working hours,initially for static employees.

    Mobile workers,were included in the WTD from 2005,bearing in mind that the Working Time Directive refers exactly that...WORK,which can include other activities apart from driving.

    Whilst the WTD allows for a period of 6 Hours WORK before a 30 min break is required,the 4.5 hours driving time remains in place for EC 561 covered drivers.

    The situation regarding workouts and similar can best be explained,by referencing the actual scheduled time spent driving on the particular board,as generally,at least one,or more of the trips operated will have a degree of recovery time built in.

    This is not unique to CIE operations,and can be found wherever Bus Scheduling is practiced.

    It is the reason the industry employs "Schedulers" in attempts to ensure drivers actually cover their duties in as an efficient manner as can be devised.

    It is worth bearing in mind,that any,initially generous looking,work-out duty,will inevitably be recovered by the inclusion of other duties elsewhere in the schedule which work drivers all the way to the Legal Limits.

    Section 114 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 also contains some relevant information on DOMESTIC regulations.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/114/enacted/en/html
    Limitations on periods of continuous driving.

    114.—(1) Each of the following periods or series of periods of driving shall be an excessive period for the purposes of this section:

    (a) any continuous period of driving exceeding five and one-half hours;

    The inclusion of the word continuous is of some importance when referencing what exactly Irish law does,or does not permit.

    It is also worth noting in relation to the Working Time Act,that there are flexibilities allowed once agreed by the workforce.
    Exceptions
    In the case of mobile workers, the directive allows some flexibility if a collective
    agreement is in place.     For instance, you may extend the reference period from
    four months to six months when calculating the average 48-hour week. You
    may also extend the 10-hour night limit, although mobile workers will still have
    to obey the rest requirements of the eU Rules on drivers Hours. If a collective
    agreement is in place, employers and employees should sign up to the agreement and be familiar with its terms.
    if you are a self-employed driver, you can also avail of the flexibility regarding the
    reference periods and the extension to the 10-hour night time limit on the basis
    that it helps you to organise your work.

    None of the above,takes from the fact that Drivers hours legislation throughout the World is an absolute minefield,with a direct confrontation between Drivers who want to work 24/7,employers who want them to work 25...and saner types who belatedly see the value of a day off every now and then....;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #2596
    soundman45
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭soundman45


    Thank you Aleksmart. I was going to search and post similar but had a busy morning. Amazing the amount of posts here from people who seems to have little knowledge of the transport industry.


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    #2597
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    https://twitter.com/TFIupdates/status/1054050878322368513?s=19


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    #2598
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Outdated 111, 184 and 185 timetables still on DB website.

    https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/185-/


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    #2599
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    rorybyrne7 wrote: »
    well you show me on the rsa web site where it shows that a driver can drive for 5 and a half hours before taking a break. I operate my own bus for school runs and have done for years and never heard this why don't they teach this on CPC courses. it's legal in England this domestic hours or whatever it is they call it but we are in Ireland Here.
    you show me where a DB or GAI driver drives continuously for 5 hours.
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Well I don't work for Dublin bus anymore and am in a job where we don't "WORK" for more than 4 and half hours without a break.

    It still doesn't defend the fact they are breaking the law.

    Dublin bus is the only employer I've ever had that implemented that work tactic by the way, never before have I worked over 4 Hours and 30 mins with some form of minimum 30 mins break in line with employment law.

    But thank you for your very informative reply none the less......
    You are entitled to is my understanding and I could be wrong. I always thought DB drivers accepted it because you were not officially taking a break at end stops, so unlike minimum wage workers where your boss would not pay for that break you are entitled to, you accepted it as quid pro quo. You got a break but you got paid for it.


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    #2600
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Saw a double decker ex DB SG today on the 111 which I thought was going to be operated by single deckers only. Only passenger on board was a GAI employee.


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    #2601
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,834 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    lots of 184s going through Greystones today - all single deckers.


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    #2602
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    CramCycle wrote: »
    you show me where a DB or GAI driver drives continuously for 5 hours.

    You are entitled to is my understanding and I could be wrong. I always thought DB drivers accepted it because you were not officially taking a break at end stops, so unlike minimum wage workers where your boss would not pay for that break you are entitled to, you accepted it as quid pro quo. You got a break but you got paid for it.

    The inference from a number of posters,and over a prolonged period,appears to suggest that companies (Bus Atha Cliath in particular) are forcing employees to work illegally.

    "Workout" duties are only a part of an overall schedule,and usually a small part at that.
    Operators across many countries use them to even-out overall scheduled hours and also to allow for the positioning of vehicles for handovers or interlining.

    Some Drivers like them,whilst some do not,just as at the opposite end of the scale Bogey duties (One driver Covering Both Peaks with a long break in between) are not universally popular either.

    Anybody coming into Public Transport Operations MUST first give some consideration to the effects of Shift Working,which,for some,can mean walking away from the Public Transport area altogether.

    Shift Working is intrinsic to Public Transport,and cannot be avoided,but any suggestion that a Perfect Schedule exists,is nonsense,as the second person to work it will find huge fault that the first person could'nt see.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #2603
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    loyatemu wrote: »
    lots of 184s going through Greystones today - all single deckers.

    I would have always thought the 184 was a busy enough route to justify double deckers. I was under the impression that it was a busy route around school times especially. The 59, 63 and 111 not so much.


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    #2604
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Lots of 184s going through Greystones today - all single deckers.

    As it should be.

    Many people are choosing to ignore the reality that the NTA's BMO plan allows only for a substantial INCREASE in the frequency of Dublins PSO Bus Services generally,across ALL operators.

    At some point soon,we can expect angry letters to the Irish Times concerning too MANY buses operating through these places.

    There comes a point,when the Authorities really do need to focus on the "greater good" principle and get real with the perpetually offended ? :rolleyes:

    With the Go-Ahead BMO plan now ongoing,and the reality that not a single Bus Atha Cliath staff member has lost their job,nor has the company lost a single bus from it's fleet,perhaps people will begin to focus on the new reality of a substantially increased Bus Service level,simpler fare structure,24 hour services and the final steps to an integrated Public Transport structure in Dublin.

    There have been many avoidable mess-up's to date,and I suspect there are more to come,BUT,for the first time in 4 decades,the Bus Service is finally receiving significant investment which requires careful monitoring to ensure that dubious scenarios such as College Green are NOT repeated in our lifetimes !!!

    Alternatively,we can join King Canute on his throne,and command the tide to retreat ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #2605
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,384 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Very happy to hear that new timetables are being handed out & updated on various bus stops with new data being included on the Real Time apps from TFI. On the other hand; Dublin Bus still having their old timetables for these routes up on their own website is not good to hear. Their staff should have made some updates earlier this morning to get rid of them from their site. Anyway; tomorrow is another day to do that properly.


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    #2606
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    Very happy to hear that new timetables are being handed out & updated on various bus stops with new data being included on the Real Time apps from TFI. On the other hand; Dublin Bus still having their old timetables for these routes up on their own website is not good to hear. Their staff should have made some updates earlier this morning to get rid of them from their site. Anyway; tomorrow is another day to do that properly.

    I may sound like I'm nit picking but I spotted an inconsistency today in Dun Laoghaire. One side of the timetable was DB style and displaying the 46a and the other side was the Go-Ahead routes in NTA style so both sides were displaying two different styles of timetable.


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    #2607
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Saw a double decker ex DB SG today on the 111 which I thought was going to be operated by single deckers only. Only passenger on board was a GAI employee.

    This is the first time the 111 has ever had a Sunday service. I have no doubt it will carry more passengers as the weeks go on.


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    #2608
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    KD345 wrote: »
    This is the first time the 111 has ever had a Sunday service. I have no doubt it will carry more passengers as the weeks go on.

    True enough but it operated on a Sunday before 1991 so it's not the first time it's had a Sunday service. I wouldn't this route justifies double deckers mind you. I would imagine the 114 will also get a Sunday service too.


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    #2609
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I may sound like I'm nit picking but I spotted an inconsistency today in Dun Laoghaire. One side of the timetable was DB style and displaying the 46a and the other side was the Go-Ahead routes in NTA style so both sides were displaying two different styles of timetable.

    There are currently 5 different timetable formats being used

    Dublin Bus - Online and on street (same style)
    TFI - Stop specific with spider maps
    TFI - Go Ahead (temporary) timetables for 45a, 63, 75
    Go Ahead/TFI - Online version
    TFI - Journey Planner version

    All in different styles, colours and formats which unfortunately makes it inconsistent for passengers.

    I’m sure the plan is to standardise them all in time.


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    #2610
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Apologies if this deserves its own thread. Fianna Fail introduced an amendment to the Dublin Transport Authority (now NTA) Bill to prevent further "privatisation" of routes

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-10-18a.201


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    #2611
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    [QUOTE=On the other hand; Dublin Bus still having their old timetables for these routes up on their own website is not good to hear. Their staff should have made some updates earlier this morning to get rid of them from their site. Anyway; tomorrow is another day to do that properly.[/QUOTE]

    At least it says on the top in big red letters that its a Go-Ahead service now.
    But yeah, for the previous phase DB had the timetables off the website by 23:45 on the Saturday.

    Also, are the 184 and 185 only using single deckers now?


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