Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15 · 10-07-2019 10:33pm

john boye wrote: »

150 was half single deck and half deckers for years before it became completely deckered. And like you say the 123 had deckers along with WVs for years. Probably quite hard to pinpoint what the last completely single deck route was.

I think it may have been the 59 never remember seeing any double deckers on it until about 2008

SG317 · 10-07-2019 11:13pm

devnull wrote: »

SG317 wrote: »

From the old Dublin Bus timetables, the 102 was every 20 mins in the morning and midday and every half an hour up to 7, then every hour after 7, for Saturday. Weekdays, additional departures at peak times.

Do you have a copy of the timetable? The reason I ask is that if we are saying that the timetable with DB was a higher frequency which affected passenger numbers, then we can only really judge that by comparing the timetables.

My point was, following your line of argument that overcrowding on the 102 from the SDs is due to DB ticket box data not accounting for all passengers, the same logic would apply to GAI as well.

In my experience GAI are not letting people through as easy without validating their pass or logging it on a ticket machine. I admit I use GAI less frequently than DB and the demographics of routes not serving the CC would be a little different so based on this what I'm saying is anecdotal rather than a considered study, but it's my experience none the less that this is the case.

Since GAI has been operating the 102 for half a year now, their ticketbox data should show that the 102 is over capacity with SDs. However, if how some users have claimed, that the NTA won't let GAI operate DDs on the 102, then surely GAI's data would also not be factoring in all passengers. As the ticket box data will not be showing the actual amount of people using the route, hence why the NTA wouldn't allow DDs on the 102 as GAI's data would not be showing all the Free Pass holders and other passengers not counted by the ticket machines.

I don't know why that they are not sticking double deckers on these routes just like you don't. It's a question which should be asked of the NTA and I would suggest that you email them to find out the answer. I was just merely stating the fact that when there have been big service changes in the past, that passenger number counts have been done based on ticket machine data to predict demand, so I'd assume the same was done here. Assumption is a very dangerous thing, but as we don't have a crystal ball, we can only look at best practice for changes of these kind and what was done in the past, and all of these cases involve analysing passenger number data from ticket machines.

The one thing I have heard though is that some were surprised by the demand for some routes because the information that they had suggested that there would not be as many people using the services. So either the improvements that have been made to the services or enhanced timetables have resulted in a spike in usage, or the projections for passenger numbers were flawed, I would presume because they under estimated the passenger numbers required.

I do agree though that the important thing is that this situation is not allowed to carry on. If they have to divert a few double deckers from the DB order to keep a few AXs on for an extra year so be it. At the end of the day by the time the schools start the new academic year this issue needs to be resolved and it's unacceptable for the NTA to not address this in the coming weeks and months, I can understand why they may have found themselves in the position that they are, which may well not be their fault but they now need to take action to address it.

So by your logic if DB gave the NTA innacururate data regarding loadings on the 102, GAI is also giving g them innacururate data.

So because one company gives inaccurate data the other one must be too? That is a big presumption to be making, as I've said, in my limited experience, GAI are letting less free travel pass holders through that DB who are waving people through. This may well be that as Go Ahead Ireland staff are new in a fairly recent company they had long lead in training and had no established culture which means it's easier to drum rules and adherence to them into staff.

You are right the 102 wasn't always outbased, however before it had long dead mileage to and from Ballymount, so operating SDs on the 102 from the start would have still been most convenient for GAI. So, either way if it is outbased or in Ballymount SDs are more convenient for GAI. Therefore, the fact that the 102 is so far from its base in Ballymount is one of the main reasons for SDs on the route, outbased, long dead mileage.

That's a really disingenuous point to make I have to say. The fact was that when the service wasn't outbased it was almost fully single decker operated, so you cannot make a credible claim that being outbased is a main reason for it being single decker operated. The facts say something else. In any case, as recently as a fortnight ago double deckers have been on the 102 as I was on one to the airport!

I see you have very conveniently only quoted half of my sentence and taken what I said out of context, you even replaced a coma with a full stop to essentially mischaracterise what I said, which I actually find quite disingenuous. So I'll repeat my point, so it hopefully won't be taken out of context again. You can't argue that DB is to blame for the SD policy on the 102, as if the loadings figures that DB gave for the 102 were wrong as you claim, then GAIs figures which have been recorded for over 7 months now should clearly indicate that the 102 is over capacity as has been widely reported on this thread and on Twitter. Yet the route is still getting SDs and you seem to believe it is because of inaccurate loadings data from DB, but if the NTA is still telling GAI to allocate SDs to the 102, then GAIs data is incorrect too, as it is showing that the buses are not over capacity when they are. To be honest it just seems like you ar being selective here. It can't be that DBs data was wrong, but then 7 months later when GAI is operating the route and providing the data, they are still being told to allocate SDs, despite the buses being full. Clearly all the passengers aren't being counted then? Or SDs are allocated to the 102 because that is what is cheapest fuel wise, unless there is some other reason none of us know. To be honest, I actually think the 17 would cope better with SDs than the 102 would, yet that is DD.

Sorry, but what facts? You say facts yet there are no sources and you actually state above that you have to assume on what is common practice. How is a DD meant to operate a 102 the next day, if the only buses in the outstation are the SDs from the last day? If you are operating from a garage with 6 buses, the allocation will be a lot stricter than a garage from 100 buses. That is what i was saying, that since the route is outbased less DDs can appear on the route, because most the time time the SDs are in the outstation as that is what is cheaper. It is the same as the Bray outbase that DB have, where AXs and EVs were never found on the 184 and 185, as all that was in Bray were GTs and SGs. Most bus companies will try have more fuel efficient buses in their outbases, DB only keep GTs and SGs in Skerries and Bray. Likewise for Go Ahead it would be cheaper to keep SDs in the outbase rather than DDs, as SDs are more than fuel efficient.

Stephen15 · 10-07-2019 11:22pm

You mention about the 84/a only getting SGs and GTs as it's out based in Bray but that's also because a number of 145 duties are based there too which is one of the routes which the NTA require to be operated by dual door buses. So it would be easier for DB to just allocate dual door buses to Bray so buses can be swapped around between the 145 and 84/a. The 61 also nearly always gets dual doors as it's interworked with the 14.

Also GAI have some double deckers based at their airport outstation for the 17a. I don't think it's too do with fuel savings and more to with the fact that's it's interworked with the 33a and 33b. My belief is the NTA only ordered for the busiest routes operated by GAI to be operated by double deckers.

devnull · 11-07-2019 12:08am

SG317 wrote: »

I see you have very conveniently only quoted half of my sentence and taken what I said out of context, you even replaced a coma with a full stop to essentially mischaracterise what I said, which I actually find quite disingenuous.

Unfortunately replying on a touch screen as I did earlier is rather awkward when trying to move blocks of text around to reply inline in different chunks please let me know where I put a full stop instead of a comma and bits I missed out and I'll correct it because it was not my intention to mislead.

You can't argue that DB is to blame for the SD policy on the 102, as if the loadings figures that DB gave for the 102 were wrong as you claim, then GAIs figures which have been recorded for over 7 months now should clearly indicate that the 102 is over capacity as has been widely reported on this thread and on Twitter. Yet the route is still getting SDs and you seem to believe it is because of inaccurate loadings data from DB, but if the NTA is still telling GAI to allocate SDs to the 102, then GAIs data is incorrect too, as it is showing that the buses are not over capacity when they are.

All I'm saying is that in my experience there is a higher number of passengers on Dublin Bus that are not being logged than there is on Go Ahead services in my experience. Is this reflective of something wider? I cannot say as I do not see every single bus service, but I am just saying my observations.

Observations of passengers not being counted were also made in 2009 when the Deloitte review of Dublin Bus services found that a number of free passengers were not being put through by DB drivers which was also discussed in the Oireachtas Transport Committee at the time. Also the NTA certainly are using DB ticket machine data intensively since this data is being used to report punctuality and reliability figures (stated in the 2018 Public Service Obligation Funding for Public Transport Performance Measurement publication) for Dublin Bus.

I'll repeat what I said before - this issue needs to be resolved and it's unacceptable for the NTA to not address this in the coming weeks and months, I can understand why they may have found themselves in the position that they are, which may well not be their fault but they now need to take action to address it. I'm not defending the NTA at all - there are problems and this needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency because there are no excuses for it carrying on as it's been going on too long.

Sorry, but what facts? You say facts yet there are no sources and you actually state above that you have to assume on what is common practice.

Ticket machine data has been the way to count passengers on bus services throughout the industry since machines like the Wayfarer has been invented, do you really think that it's all estimates and based on driver memory and creating tallies in their head? Dublin Bus, like TFL and others have been using ticket machine data to identify passenger numbers for a couple of decades now, you don't have to believe me, but a quick search on Google will find you plenty of examples of where this is the case.

How is a DD meant to operate a 102 the next day, if the only buses in the outstation are the SDs from the last day? If you are operating from a garage with 6 buses, the allocation will be a lot stricter than a garage from 100 buses. That is what i was saying, that since the route is outbased less DDs can appear on the route, because most the time time the SDs are in the outstation as that is what is cheaper.

As I told you, I was on a DD on the 102 a fortnight or so ago, if what you say is true then I assume you are saying that I am not telling the truth, since as far as I am aware the outbasing has been going on for a number of weeks. The simple fact is that since the outbasing has started from what I have seen there has not been any visible change for the ratio of single deckers on route 102, so it is incorrect to say that the outbasing has had an effect on the vehicle allocation, since in my experience of seeing vehicles on that route quite regularly, nothing has really changed since the outbasing begun, we're not talking about what you think could or should happen, we're talking about the reality here.

Stephen15 · 11-07-2019 12:50am

devnull wrote: »

All I'm saying is that in my experience there is a higher number of passengers on Dublin Bus that are not being logged than there is on Go Ahead services in my experience. Is this reflective of something wider? I cannot say as I do not see every single bus service, but I am just saying my observations.

I haven't seen this however I was on a GAI bus about a week ago and the driver was allowing anyone who looked under 19 on for free and that included myself and I'm 20 and use a student Leap card. Also a couple of months ago another time the driver forgot to deduct any money off my Leap card when I presented it on the reader which is a fair enough case of genuine human error.

I'll repeat what I said before - this issue needs to be resolved and it's unacceptable for the NTA to not address this in the coming weeks and months, I can understand why they may have found themselves in the position that they are, which may well not be their fault but they now need to take action to address it. I'm not defending the NTA at all - there are problems and this needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency because there are no excuses for it carrying on as it's been going on too long.

From what I gather the 102 is a route which still get's fairly decent loadings even in the summertime as many from what I've heard it's popular with tourists and schoolchildren who are off for the summer. This could be addressed by putting taking double deckers off routes which are actually quieter in the summer.

For example I don't think the 17 is that busy in the summer no reason why single deckers couldn't be put on it and the 114 for the summer when it's relatively quiet as a temporary measure until more double decker buses arrive in time for when the schools go back. Which could be obtained by transferring buses from DBs order or transferring from DB s current NTA owned fleet.

Ticket machine data has been the way to count passengers on bus services throughout the industry since machines like the Wayfarer has been invented, do you really think that it's all estimates and based on driver memory and creating tallies in their head? Dublin Bus, like TFL and others have been using ticket machine data to identify passenger numbers for a couple of decades now, you don't have to believe me, but a quick search on Google will find you plenty of examples of where this is the case.

There can always be problems disprencies with ticket machine information especially using an inadequate system such as wayfarers. For example in London i believe a number of LT operated routes have has their frequencies cut as so many people are not paying their fare on LTs due to the three doors on them. A better way I would think would be through driver reports or better still using CCTV footage to monitor passenger numbers.

devnull · 11-07-2019 9:36am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I haven't seen this however I was on a GAI bus about a week ago and the driver was allowing anyone who looked under 19 on for free and that included myself and I'm 20 and use a student Leap card. Also a couple of months ago another time the driver forgot to deduct any money off my Leap card when I presented it on the reader which is a fair enough case of genuine human error.

Hence why I said that my experiences cannot be taken as anything more than ancedotal evidence, like with anyones experiences in isolation, however they are my experiences netherless. It could be different on some routes to others, a study would be needed to get the idea of if there is a trend or not for sure.

From what I gather the 102 is a route which still get's fairly decent loadings even in the summertime as many from what I've heard it's popular with tourists and schoolchildren who are off for the summer. This could be addressed by putting taking double deckers off routes which are actually quieter in the summer.

It depends on the reasoning for the allocations and if it is stated in an agreement between GAI and the NTA what vehicle allocations should be on what route then it may be subject to negotiation of the contract for example which may well be going on at the moment for all we know. The one thing I do know is that whatever the reason, it needs to be addressed some way or other.

There can always be problems disprencies with ticket machine information especially using an inadequate system such as wayfarers. For example in London i believe a number of LT operated routes have has their frequencies cut as so many people are not paying their fare on LTs due to the three doors on them. A better way I would think would be through driver reports or better still using CCTV footage to monitor passenger numbers.

The wayfarers that Dublin Bus and Go Ahead Ireland use are very limited, but even older machines were reliabily able to count passenger numbers and the amount of money taken, because this is pretty much an essential feature of ticketing equipment so they are able to ensure that the amount of cash taken in cash fares, is equal to the number of tickets sold, otherwise you'd not be able to tell if someone is pocketing some money from the fares in the chain.

Driver reports and CCTV footage are complely impractical. Are you really going to issue every driver with a notepaper and pen and ask him to update a tally chart at each stop on every service all year around? It would destroy dwell times even more than they are now and paying hundreds of staff to watch a thousand buses CCTV cameras in full will add massive amounts to costs and I doubt the unions would be happy abou their drivers every move being monitored in this way, and that's something I'd agree with unions on as nobody likes micromanagement by CCTV.

Stephen15 · 11-07-2019 10:16am

devnull wrote: »

Driver reports and CCTV footage are complely impractical. Are you really going to issue every driver with a notepaper and pen and ask him to update a tally chart at each stop on every service all year around? It would destroy dwell times even more than they are now and paying hundreds of staff to watch a thousand buses CCTV cameras in full will add massive amounts to costs and I doubt the unions would be happy abou their drivers every move being monitored in this way, and that's something I'd agree with unions on as nobody likes micromanagement by CCTV.

That's absolutely not what I was suggesting. The driver reports could be just simply the control room radioing the driver and asking how busy the bus is and it could be made a rule that drivers must radio control if the bus is full there wouldn't be any need for a any tallies.

As for CCTV and not asking for any more than what is currently there just that CCTV staff could also report on busy loading and potential areas where capacity may need to be increased.

devnull · 11-07-2019 11:12am

None of your solutions are even close to being as reliable as ticket machine data and require rough estimates and/ or would require substantial additional staffing costs to implement. If drivers are logging everyone who boards their bus on the ticket machine like they are supposed to and using them correctly, this data should be correct.

Stephen15 wrote: »

That's absolutely not what I was suggesting. The driver reports could be just simply the control room radioing the driver and asking how busy the bus is and it could be made a rule that drivers must radio control if the bus is full there wouldn't be any need for a any tallies.

How would the driver know exactly how many people are on his bus and how many inspectors would you need to do this for every service that is operated by every bus to have proper passenger figures? The ticket machine data is far more reliable and Wayfarers, despite their age are well able to do this.

As for CCTV and not asking for any more than what is currently there just that CCTV staff could also report on busy loading and potential areas where capacity may need to be increased.

There are 1000 buses in the Dublin City bus fleet, many of which will operate around double figures of journeys per day, how are you going to have enough staff to download the footage from the multiple cameras on each bus and review them all throughout the journey for each service each bus operates, because loadings vary throughout any bus service.

Yer Da sells Avon · 11-07-2019 2:37pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I haven't seen this however I was on a GAI bus about a week ago and the driver was allowing anyone who looked under 19 on for free and that included myself and I'm 20 and use a student Leap card. Also a couple of months ago another time the driver forgot to deduct any money off my Leap card when I presented it on the reader which is a fair enough case of genuine human error.

I regularly don't charge people when they present their leap card on the reader. The machines are so slow that most people have taken their card away before the payment has gone through. And I'm not arsed calling them back because as far as I'm concerned, I've pressed the right button and they've made a reasonable attempt at paying. I would imagine this is extremely common right across Dublin Bus and Go Ahead, and it might explain why it's difficult to get accurate passenger numbers.

punisher5112 · 11-07-2019 2:45pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I regularly don't charge people when they present their leap card on the reader. The machines are so slow that most people have taken their card away before the payment has gone through. And I'm not arsed calling them back because as far as I'm concerned, I've pressed the right button and they've made a reasonable attempt at paying. I would imagine this is extremely common right across Dublin Bus and Go Ahead, and it might explain why it's difficult to get accurate passenger numbers.

This morning near a full bus got into the city free as leap reader on top of machine wouldn't work...

This is very common and a fortune is been lost.

Another thing that's really taking off now is adults using child leap cards and then the amount I would find not scanning at all...

On an average day this would tend to be between at a minimum 2 to 7 or 8 and that could at worse end be one journey....

Absolutely shocking that we as drivers have no back up from management or have people to put those making everyone else's commute a pain off or sort them out....

punisher5112 · 11-07-2019 2:48pm

Oh and well done to the bright spark that came up with the child free travel on leap for a month when all the students are over from abroad....

They are even worse this year and shockingly disrespectful.

They are taking over the buses and those that rely on the service can't get on...

Stephen15 · 11-07-2019 3:42pm

devnull wrote: »

None of your solutions are even close to being as reliable as ticket machine data and require rough estimates and/ or would require substantial additional staffing costs to implement. If drivers are logging everyone who boards their bus on the ticket machine like they are supposed to and using them correctly, this data should be correct.

Sorry I should have made it more clear that my suggestions were more meant in addition to information from the wayfarers and not as replacement. It's more that the information that DB receives currently from drivers reporting full bus loads and I have regularly overheard controllers asking drivers how busy it is over the radio. This sort of information that DB receives about passenger volumes other than wayfarer data should also be passed on to the NTA.

It should also be the case when a driver refuses to let additional passengers on to a bus that this information should be logged and reported to the NTA.

john boye · 11-07-2019 10:36pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

This morning near a full bus got into the city free as leap reader on top of machine wouldn't work...

This is very common and a fortune is been lost.

Another thing that's really taking off now is adults using child leap cards and then the amount I would find not scanning at all...

On an average day this would tend to be between at a minimum 2 to 7 or 8 and that could at worse end be one journey....

Absolutely shocking that we as drivers have no back up from management or have people to put those making everyone else's commute a pain off or sort them out....

When I last used the bus regularly a few years ago that was regularly a problem, at least once a week. Is it still like that?

Just on your other point, a guy in one of our offices (who is as tight as a water snake's arse) recently told me that he's started using his elderly mother's FTP to get to and from work. He's only 45 and says the most he gets is the odd funny look from the driver. I actually have half a mind to report him as his smugness about it actually galls me a bit but it's hard to pinpoint him as I he gets the bus at different times every day and gets it on a main road where he has multiple routes that will get him to town.

Stephen15 · 11-07-2019 10:51pm

john boye wrote: »

When I last used the bus regularly a few years ago that was regularly a problem, at least once a week. Is it still like that?

Just on your other point, a guy in one of our offices (who is as tight as a water snake's arse) recently told me that he's started using his elderly mother's FTP to get to and from work. He's only 45 and says the most he gets is the odd funny look from the driver. I actually have half a mind to report him as his smugness about it actually galls me a bit but it's hard to pinpoint him as I he gets the bus at different times every day and gets it on a main road where he has multiple routes that will get him to town.

Well the reason he's obivously doing it is because he knows he can get away with it which is ridiculous but true. No drivers going to care as most know that it will end up a lose lose situation for them as they'll get abuse and may end up getting in trouble with DB, RPOs are almost non existant on buses in general in this country and not many people are going to report him and even if they did not much will probably be done to him.

punisher5112 · 11-07-2019 11:16pm

john boye wrote: »

When I last used the bus regularly a few years ago that was regularly a problem, at least once a week. Is it still like that?

Just on your other point, a guy in one of our offices (who is as tight as a water snake's arse) recently told me that he's started using his elderly mother's FTP to get to and from work. He's only 45 and says the most he gets is the odd funny look from the driver. I actually have half a mind to report him as his smugness about it actually galls me a bit but it's hard to pinpoint him as I he gets the bus at different times every day and gets it on a main road where he has multiple routes that will get him to town.

You can report any issues and anonymous also....

I'm sick to death carrying these free loaders whom make my job even harder as these are the type that speak down to us and actually put in bogus complaints....

He can put the FTP in his wallet and no driver will ever know.

Many are using their spouses pass to get their pals on and this isn't just the drug addicts as I'm finding many of the older generation are copping on and giving it a go.

Also companion pass means they should have someone eligible at all times but at least 80% travel alone....

Ticket machine not fit for purpose and many many drivers don't even report.....

I'm having huge issues with very badly defective driver seats and nothing done... Bus could be on the road hours with a defect and nothing written on report sheet.

Sure buses are even passing the walk around check with faulty lighting...
The best was the wedding bus was on the road minimum 4 months with no brake lights on one side... The day I got it was the last day of this and it spent 2 days in the shed with electrical engineer working on it.

It's actually sickening to see what now qualify for a pass these days...

Stephen15 · 11-07-2019 11:39pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

You can report any issues and anonymous also....

I'm sick to death carrying these free loaders whom make my job even harder as these are the type that speak down to us and actually put in bogus complaints....

So are all law abiding citizens. There is no incentive for people to report these kind of things and no ones going to bother and even if they do nothing will likely be done to the people who are involved in scamming the system.

Ticket machine not fit for purpose and many many drivers don't even report.....

I'm having huge issues with very badly defective driver seats and nothing done... Bus could be on the road hours with a defect and nothing written on report sheet.

This seems like the problem with DB and probably GAI too as a whole that the operators and the NTA are relying too much on drivers who have enough on their plate already to be ensuring everyone pays their fare and every bus is in sound working order.

There needs to be more people out there checking tickets and passes like on the Luas it shouldn't be only up to the driver to make sure everyone pays and all passes are being used legitimately.

Likewise with maintenance it should up to DBs and GAIs maintenance to ensure that buses in proper working working and that includes ticket machines and any other defects obivously the drivers should be playing their part too but the emphasis shouldn't only be on them.

john boye · 11-07-2019 11:59pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Sure buses are even passing the walk around check with faulty lighting...
The best was the wedding bus was on the road minimum 4 months with no brake lights on one side... The day I got it was the last day of this and it spent 2 days in the shed with electrical engineer working on it.

Are defect dockets even read anymore?

punisher5112 · 12-07-2019 12:07am

john boye wrote: »

Are defect dockets even read anymore?

It's a paper trail, what I do is keep every docket I put a defect on...

Vic_08 · 12-07-2019 12:18am

punisher5112 wrote: »

It's a paper trail, what I do is keep every docket I put a defect on...

I've said it numerous times, as well as dockets there should be a defect book on each bus so that drivers can see a log showing what faults keep repeating or are being unresolved. It is far too easy in big fleets for issues to be bodged, ignored or "fixed" by clearing fault codes on the computer. Throw it straight back out not properly fixed and rely on the next driver not being aware that the bus has just been defected.

XPS_Zero · 12-07-2019 12:30am

With respect for FTP abuse, there is a big issue here.

The companion pass is a joke and needs reform badly, its meant to be for people who medically cannot travel alone but there are only a minority that use it that way. There needs to be some kind of system where an approved list of 3-4 people can be taken on your card at different times, and they have their own separate photo ID cards that cannot be tagged unless they are tagged within say 30 seconds after the first card, I imagine programming this would not be at all rocket science. Make them a different color than the regular one so they can't be confused for the other one alone either.
The same should go for the spousal pass, if the spouse is entitled to be taken on they should get a pass that works the same way ^
This would END all such abuse right away.

When you tag on you can tag on the card reader on the right for the bus, so the driver is not going to have any idea if you are using anthers FTP. As someone who has it for genuine reasons it absolutely enrages me to see it abused because we are enduring enough stigma and abuse and myth in pub talk, on daytime radio, and on online message boards (even here where people should know better and be more educated on the topic) as it is without this adding to it, so R.E.P.O.R.T THEM.
Using someone else's pass is welfare fraud it's no different than collecting jobseekers when you are working or disability when you are not sick.

To the issue of the pass being used by another, I ask you, where are these inspectors? I never see them, and when they do appear it's never on the arse end of the 75 route in some Tallaght Estate or winding around the 46a it's on the 145 route down the street from the garage, I have to wonder if they are doing it the lazy way. I don't know if GAI even HAVE inspectors? or is it gonna become an NTA thing now? Whoever does it, I don't see them, and I'm all over PT constantly.

They need to take a lesson from Luas and Glider in Belfast on fare checking, it would be so much easier to just make PT free, with the climate issue it will eventually get that way, but until we have the infrastructure and capacity to get there, if were gonna have this be the revenue source it needs to be protected properly.

I have to wonder if you guys put as much effort into contacting your union about dodgy machines and abuse of the FT pass and making them bang on the subject to the NTA and Minister as you do when you want to shut the country down for a wage increase would these problems still exist?
Let me give you a lesson from politics you gotta get organized if you wanna change this stuff, complaining online and in the pub is not enough.

punisher5112 · 12-07-2019 12:41am

Things have changed to years ago... Only reason for checks was to see were drivers pocketing the money or the conductor....

Stephen15 · 12-07-2019 12:50am

XPS_Zero wrote: »

To the issue of the pass being used by another, I ask you, where are these inspectors? I never see them, and when they do appear it's never on the arse end of the 75 route in some Tallaght Estate or winding around the 46a it's on the 145 route down the street from the garage, I have to wonder if they are doing it the lazy way. I don't know if GAI even HAVE inspectors? or is it gonna become an NTA thing now? Whoever does it, I don't see them, and I'm all over PT constantly.

I think GAI do have revenue inspectors I've heard reports there were some on the 75 thought I saw someone on a GAI bus which I was not travelling on but passed me with one of those handheld devices that ticket inspectors to scan Leap cards. Oddly enough the report I heard was that only one got on but I thought it was a health and safety requirement that RPOs must travel in groups.

Dravokivich · 12-07-2019 10:54am

punisher5112 wrote: »

This morning near a full bus got into the city free as leap reader on top of machine wouldn't work...

This is very common and a fortune is been lost.

That's the operators policy. If the leap card cant be read, they should be paying a cash fare. Leap already state the leap card must be validated to be considered in use for the journey.

punisher5112 · 12-07-2019 11:17am

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's the operators policy. If the leap card cant be read, they should be paying a cash fare. Leap already state the leap card must be validated to be considered in use for the journey.

But the issue there is they want nobody paying cash so that's going to cause huge issues.

Stephen15 · 12-07-2019 12:21pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's the operators policy. If the leap card cant be read, they should be paying a cash fare. Leap already state the leap card must be validated to be considered in use for the journey.

Often the case that the wayfarer is completely broken and can't process any fares cash or leap

dublinman1990 · 12-07-2019 7:03pm

I've come across a small issue this evening with the Routes & Timetables page on the GAI website.

There is no timetables being offered for some of their bus routes like the 33a & 33b. There is also a separate entry being offered for the 76a but the timetable is currently a combi-timetable in the 76 timetable on the website. The timetables are also not displayed in the correct numerical order. Routes like the 18, 76, 76a, 102, 33a & 33b are all displayed at the bottom of the page.

They also have the 33a & 33b re-numbered as 331 & 332 on the website which is a bit odd.

https://www.goaheadireland.ie/services

Dravokivich · 12-07-2019 7:22pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Often the case that the wayfarer is completely broken and can't process any fares cash or leap

They made a point of stating an inability to do leap transactions. And commenting about lost revenue as a result. It's a decision the operator makes so they are willingly taking that hit.

XPS_Zero · 13-07-2019 11:51am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think GAI do have revenue inspectors I've heard reports there were some on the 75 thought I saw someone on a GAI bus which I was not travelling on but passed me with one of those handheld devices that ticket inspectors to scan Leap cards. Oddly enough the report I heard was that only one got on but I thought it was a health and safety requirement that RPOs must travel in groups.

I'd imagine that would be considerd standard when you think about the reaction they get, I've often seen IE RPU ones with Guards. The DB guys seems to travel as a team with an inspector and two checkers.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Often the case that the wayfarer is completely broken and can't process any fares cash or leap

I've been seeing drivers and staff call these wayfarers pieces of sh1t for the last 5-6 years on here, at least, why do we still have them? All these new busses are they just changing the machines over to the new bus? or are they new machines using a bad design?
If this company is crap should we not be ordering from someone else? They seem to be extending dwell time something awful?

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I've come across a small issue this evening with the Routes & Timetables page on the GAI website.

There is no timetables being offered for some of their bus routes like the 33a & 33b. There is also a separate entry being offered for the 76a but the timetable is currently a combi-timetable in the 76 timetable on the website. The timetables are also not displayed in the correct numerical order. Routes like the 18, 76, 76a, 102, 33a & 33b are all displayed at the bottom of the page.

They also have the 33a & 33b re-numbered as 331 & 332 on the website which is a bit odd.

https://www.goaheadireland.ie/services

It's time for a Transport for Ireland website with all the timetables and info on one site.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/dublin-bus/

ATM we have an absurd situation where you have to go to the operators site, from TFI, that's so stupid I don't know where to start. If for the public they are to be thinking about ROUTES only how would the average punter know which company has their route esp when just introduced it's crazy.
They should be on one site.

john boye · 13-07-2019 12:10pm

Just saw a GAI SG with a nearside ad fitted.

dublinman1990 · 13-07-2019 8:57pm

john boye wrote: »

Just saw a GAI SG with a nearside ad fitted.

That's great. Was it out on a bus route?

john boye · 13-07-2019 10:07pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

That's great. Was it out on a bus route?

Yes, the 18

Stephen15 · 13-07-2019 10:09pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

That's great. Was it out on a bus route?

I've seen pictures of GAI buses with ads online their all for the Leap card kids go free scheme a bit like the way there's NTA/TFI ads on the interior interior. Nothing commercial yet just the NTAs own ads as no contracts for advertising have been sigmed yet.

dowlingm · 13-07-2019 10:24pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's the operators policy. If the leap card cant be read, they should be paying a cash fare. Leap already state the leap card must be validated to be considered in use for the journey.

If failing to provide either redundant LEAP readers or have them operating to acceptable stability means passengers must pay cash or not travel, where is the inconvenience to those responsible? If you have a LEAP card and the reader is down, you should be allowed to travel without further payment, end of.

Dravokivich · 14-07-2019 12:40am

dowlingm wrote: »

If failing to provide either redundant LEAP readers or have them operating to acceptable stability means passengers must pay cash or not travel, where is the inconvenience to those responsible? If you have a LEAP card and the reader is down, you should be allowed to travel without further payment, end of.

You haven't paid for a ticket, that you are unable to redeem.

Stephen15 · 14-07-2019 12:47am

Dravokivich wrote: »

You haven't paid for a ticket, that you are unable to redeem.

Sorry but exactly do you mean by redeem? What exactly is there to be redeemed by paying a fare?

tabbey · 14-07-2019 2:43pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The companion pass is a joke and needs reform badly, its meant to be for people who medically cannot travel alone but there are only a minority that use it that way.

I agree with most of your post, but would mention that some people, a little confused, are quite capable of travelling into town alone, but might need a companion if going on their holidays, or to a medical appointment outside their usual routine.

L1011 · 14-07-2019 2:48pm

They're unable to offer Leap fares for cash customers let alone capping. Suspect there's absolutely no ability for them to demand cash payment when Leap is down

tabbey · 14-07-2019 2:50pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think GAI do have revenue inspectors I've heard reports there were some on the 75 thought I saw someone on a GAI bus which I was not travelling on but passed me with one of those handheld devices that ticket inspectors to scan Leap cards. Oddly enough the report I heard was that only one got on but I thought it was a health and safety requirement that RPOs must travel in groups.

Yes I did have my leap card inspected on a 75 many months ago by a solo checker. He was not wearing a uniform, but mufti covered by a hi-vis jacket. I wondered at the time whether he was an executive of GAI rather than a regular ticket checker.

Stephen15 · 14-07-2019 3:54pm

tabbey wrote: »

Yes I did have my leap card inspected on a 75 many months ago by a solo checker. He was not wearing a uniform, but mufti covered by a hi-vis jacket. I wondered at the time whether he was an executive of GAI rather than a regular ticket checker.

Sounds strange did he have any ID badge another thing which I think RPOs are supposed to display or show (if plain clothes)

tabbey · 14-07-2019 9:42pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Sounds strange did he have any ID badge another thing which I think RPOs are supposed to display or show (if plain clothes)

I cannot recall all the details, but he wore some sort of hi-vis jacket, I think it was a GAI one.

He was courteous and efficient, quickly checking but seemed to notice anything out of the ordinary, suggesting an experienced operator, and wasted no time. He had an English accent, which made me think he might have been more than a recently recruited employee, perhaps on secondment from England or helping to set up the Irish division.

KD345 · 14-07-2019 10:02pm

So many Go-Ahead services cancelled today on routes 33A, 75, 239, 270. Gaps of 90 minutes on the 75 and 2 hour gaps on the 239 and 270.

Whatever the problem is it needs to be sorted. From reading tweets its clear these cancelled buses are growing by the day.

Stephen15 · 14-07-2019 10:19pm

KD345 wrote: »

So many Go-Ahead services cancelled today on routes 33A, 75, 239, 270. Gaps of 90 minutes on the 75 and 2 hour gaps on the 239 and 270.

Whatever the problem is it needs to be sorted. From reading tweets its clear these cancelled buses are growing by the day.

Probably even worse now at this time of year with so many drivers on annual leave it would be the same with DB as i believe there's been a lot of issues with DB services aswell lately

Yer Da sells Avon · 14-07-2019 11:40pm

tabbey wrote: »

I cannot recall all the details, but he wore some sort of hi-vis jacket, I think it was a GAI one.

A green hi-viz. He can regularly be seen checking tickets on the 45a and 75. He occasionally drives too. He's been around for at least six months.

KD345 wrote:

So many Go-Ahead services cancelled today on routes 33A, 75, 239, 270. Gaps of 90 minutes on the 75 and 2 hour gaps on the 239 and 270.

A combination of driver holidays and an inordinate number of drivers ringing in sick at the last minute. Also, it can be hard to get people to do overtime when the weather is nice.

It's extremely rare that you'd get a gap like that on the 75. God help the driver of the next one. You'd think passengers would just be relieved when a bus arrives after two no-shows, but nope.

Stephen15 · 14-07-2019 11:46pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

A green hi-viz. He can regularly be seen checking tickets on the 45a and 75. He occasionally drives too. He's been around for at least six months.

I've seen that guy too around DL Dart station guessed he was an inspector/supervisor whatever GAI call the DB equivalent of an inspector. Used to be a DB inspector there who wore a peaked CIE hat.

Contrails · 15-07-2019 2:44pm

KD345 wrote: »

So many Go-Ahead services cancelled today on routes 33A, 75, 239, 270. Gaps of 90 minutes on the 75 and 2 hour gaps on the 239 and 270.

Whatever the problem is it needs to be sorted. From reading tweets its clear these cancelled buses are growing by the day.

My heart goes out to the support staff and drivers trying to make it work. I started following the Go Ahead Twitter feed recently and I cannot believe the number of "operational issues". Yesterday and and today in particular. Was it always like this?

punisher5112 · 15-07-2019 3:30pm

Contrails wrote: »

My heart goes out to the support staff and drivers trying to make it work. I started following the Go Ahead Twitter feed recently and I cannot believe the number of "operational issues". Yesterday and and today in particular. Was it always like this?

Worse then ever now. There is a drought of drivers across all companies....

Weather and summer isn't helping either.

AlekSmart · 15-07-2019 5:36pm

Contrails wrote: »

My heart goes out to the support staff and drivers trying to make it work. I started following the Go Ahead Twitter feed recently and I cannot believe the number of "operational issues". Yesterday and and today in particular. Was it always like this?

Your heart can beat a little easier now,since the NTA have finally deigned,despite the reservations of some observers, to enable the GAI Performance Reports in the same manner as all their other PSO contracts.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/go-ahead-ireland/

As expected,there was a lead-in period,during which some of the metrics were not in force,but this grace period has now expired.

Quarterly Service Quality Performance Report – in compliance with the ODMA Contract Service Quality Performance Deductions shall not apply in respect of any services during the first 3Qs of 2019.

So essentially,from October 2019,GAI will be directly comparable with the other PSO operators in relation to their Performance figures.

So,for the moment the NTA's financiers,at least have some idea as to how the thing will work....;)

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/GAI_-_Performance_Report_-_Punctuality_Q1_july.pdf

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Copy_of_GAI_Performance_Report_-_Reliability_Q1_-july.pdf

Of equal (if not greater) importance,is the publication of the NTA's now official,By-Laws for it's services,which will,no doubt,be eagerly perused by it's many customers

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/National_Transport_Authority_Public_Passenger_Transport_Services_Bye-Laws_2019.pdf

It's going to be a lonnng night ahead....:D

KD345 · 15-07-2019 11:41pm

Contrails wrote: »

My heart goes out to the support staff and drivers trying to make it work. I started following the Go Ahead Twitter feed recently and I cannot believe the number of "operational issues". Yesterday and and today in particular. Was it always like this?

It seems to be particularly bad this last week.

Some of the cancelled Go-Ahead services mentioned on Twitter today:

Route 17 from Rialto: 15:40
Route 17A from Howth Junction: 07:40
Route 18 from Palmerstown: 07:36
Route 18 from Sandymount: 17:27, 17:47
Route 45A from Kilmacanogue: 10:50
Route 76A from Blanchardstown: 18:00
Route 184 from Newcastle: 06:47
Route 75A from Dun Laoghaire: 07:35
Route 104 From DCU: 10:10, 11:10, 17:10, 18:10
Route 104 from Clontarf: 11:00
Route 102 From Dublin Airport: 12:30, 13:00
Route 239 From Blanchardstown: 10:20, 14:20, 16:20
Route 220 From “BCS”?: 13:11
Route 236 From Damastown: 17:15
Route 238 from Tyrrelstown: 14:32, 22:03, 23:03
Route 238 from Lady’s Well: 21:33, 22:33
Route 239 From Liffey Valley: 11:55, 12:55, 14:50, 17:45

They’re just the ones mentioned online. There were also buses delayed and running short.

They seem to be announcing the cancelled services ahead of their times which is helpful to inform passengers.

Stephen15 · 16-07-2019 12:24am

I wonder what that compares to cancelled DB services atm as from what I gather there's been issues with both operators lately.

LuckyLloyd · 16-07-2019 9:00am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wonder what that compares to cancelled DB services atm as from what I gather there's been issues with both operators lately.

I haven’t been noticing DB issues myself. The above issues will be blatantly obvious to a huge swathe of Go Ahead’s customer base.

Anyway, as noted above, they’ve got a couple of months to get their house in order before data highlighting their poor performance starts to be published in a comparable fashion. They got quite the extended period of grace.

Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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