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Graham Linehan given police warning for "transphobia"

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    #272
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Just look at here on boards at the various threads at how a transgender person is treated as sub-human with hate spewing mostly from male contributors.
    Can you give linked examples of being "treated as sub human", a bit of "hate spewing" would help too. If you can't well...

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #273
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    klaaaz wrote: »
    You do go on some rants, I give you that. The Times link is behind a paywall unless you copy and paste the article here for all to see?

    Who is TIM?



    I certainly think trans men should not be placed in a men's prison unless they request it. Most of the violent bigotry against anything transgender is from misogynistic, intolerant and sometimes violent males, they especially have a target for trans women. Just look at here on boards at the various threads at how a transgender person is treated as sub-human with hate spewing mostly from male contributors. (there are lots of good men too in case any men get offended :) )

    Yes I agree that the vast majority of transphobic abuse and violence comes from males. That's why I don't understand why the current crop of extreme transactivists direct their hatred towards women and with their threats of rape and violence, act very much like misogynistic men. Perhaps because they are the "safe" target?

    There is no way on Earth a trans man would be safe in a men's prison and it would be unethical to place him there, even if he requested it.


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    #274
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    I made it to the last post on page one, then wanted to set fire to my own head.


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    #275
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Can you give linked examples of being "treated as sub human", a bit of "hate spewing" would help too. If you can't well...

    Really, you know what goes on here. You saw it on the other thread describing transgender people as having "mental illness" and "not normal"
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057955579, threadstarter quoted an ultra-conservative American site!!
    Page 2 on this thread has it's own vile https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057955584
    Page 2 of the other Linehan thread the hatred starts. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057948252&page=2
    Page 10 on this thread here it starts to get really ugly too.
    And that's only from the last few days, all threads started by what looks like some posters being upset at lgbt people in general.


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    #276
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Yes I agree that the vast majority of transphobic abuse and violence comes from males. That's why I don't understand why the current crop of extreme transactivists direct their hatred towards women and with their threats of rape and violence, act very much like misogynistic men. Perhaps because they are the "safe" target?

    As we're dealing with a UK issue, they have their extremely strict law around their GRA(gender recognition act) whereby its quite costly and can take years of jumping through legal hoops just to be recognised officially as changing gender despite going through the complete physical process much earlier. I believe a candidate has to travel long distances just to sit in front of strangers on a panel to validate and prove their new gender. That needed reforming to make it easier for those who competed medical transition to obtain legal recognition.
    As I see it, I think some women's groups who appear not to be mainstream have taken issue with this bringing out the extremes of those who will never accept a medically transitioned trans woman(transsexual) which itself is wrong. They are making life very hard for medically transitioned people by continuing their objections to reform hence the dispute.

    Then you have the trans self ID people who want recognition too, but the problem people don't seem to realise is that institutions are protected under the British equivalent of the Equality Act, something about sex discrimination and it's exemptions. Open to correction on this!
    Then you have the tabloids spreading their lies about transgender people like that story about Ian Huntley misleading the public, this UK trans debate has brought out the worst in some people and some people in Ireland are trying to import that nasty dispute here.


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    #277
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,389 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Did anyone hear a thunderous Irish accented roar coming from London direction


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    #278
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    No did he complain about it or something? Seems to be the usual circle jerk of twitter happening on that link.

    Havent seen him respond to it directly but when i check his twitter he seems to make some very valid points protecting kids from adults.


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    #279
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Did anyone hear a thunderous Irish accented roar coming from London direction
    https://twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1097867934750396418?s=19

    At least he can roar without a hormonally-induced, seriously increased risk of heart attack....
    Dr. Nienke Nota — a researcher in the Department of Endocrinology at the Amsterdam University Medical Center in the Netherlands — and her team examined the medical records of 3,875 Dutch transgender people who had hormone therapy between 1972 and 2015.

    Their study examined 2,517 transgender women and 1,358 transgender men. The women were 30 years old, on average, and they had received estrogen either alone or in combination with androgen suppressors.

    The men were 23 years old, on average, and they received testosterone therapy as a part of their gender transition.

    Dr. Nota and her colleagues clinically followed the trans women for an average period of 9 years and the trans men for an average of 8 years after they started hormone therapy.

    The study found that trans women were more than twice as likely to have a stroke as cis women and almost twice as likely to have a stroke as cis men.

    Trans women were also five times and 4.5 times more likely to develop blood clots than cis women and cis men, respectively.

    Trans women also had heart attacks more than twice as often as cis women, and trans men were over three times more likely to have a heart attack than cis women.

    Dr. Nota comments on the findings, saying, "In light of our results, we urge both physicians and transgender individuals to be aware of this increased cardiovascular risk."

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324482.php


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    #280
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    That's what concerns me. Physical health gets ignored in all of this.

    For instance High levels of estrogen in men is said to increase cancer risk.


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    #281
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    That's what concerns me. Physical health gets ignored in all of this.

    For instance High levels of estrogen in men is said to increase cancer risk.

    Way worse than anything (in my opinion) is slowly emerging evidence regarding the development of the prefrontal cortex. Adolescents don't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex till about 25 and make decisions often from the amygdala (the highly reactive fight or flight region). Pubertal hormones are what help the prefrontal cortex develop and there is evidence emerging of stunting of this area where blockers are administered.


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    #282
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    At least he can roar without a hormonally-induced, seriously increased risk of heart attack....

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324482.php

    Alot of maybe's there. Going back as far as 1972, a transgender person would be at least around 70 plus today and more likely to be older when they started transition at that time.
    There is no breakdown on the age of examined transgender people in their study as medical transitions were not frequent in the 70's like these days, nearly 50 years later.

    Back then and as far as the 90's, I believe they used a different form of high risk estrogen (Premarin) than the type of estrogen (estradiol) used today which is much safer. This is not factored in the article.

    It's not all straightforward as you claim to be.


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    #283
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Alot of maybe's there. Going back as far as 1972, a transgender person would be at least around 70 plus today and more likely to be older when they started transition at that time.
    There is no breakdown on the age of examined transgender people in their study as medical transitions were not frequent in the 70's like these days, nearly 50 years later.

    Back then and as far as the 90's, I believe they used a different form of high risk estrogen (Premarin) than the type of estrogen (estradiol) used today which is much safer. This is not factored in the article.

    It's not all straightforward as you claim to be.

    Read the article, they say the ages they followed, and for how long. I presume it is a study of studies so they did not personally follow anyone to 70


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    #284
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    Read the article, they say the ages they followed, and for how long. I presume it is a study of studies so they did not personally follow anyone to 70

    Have you read the article?

    All they quote is median age going back as far as 1972. Is that a 30 yr old in 1972 or a 30 yr old in 2010 for example? Nothing is stated about the type of HRT administered as HRT changed quite a bit since then.

    Plus it emphasises the following that you conveniently left out of your quoted article which applies to everyone...
    The authors caution that their analysis did not account for modifiable risk factors such as smoking, stress, diet, and exercise


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    #285
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Have you read the article?

    All they quote is median age going back as far as 1972. Is that a 30 yr old in 1972 or a 30 yr old in 2010 for example? Nothing is stated about the type of HRT administered as HRT changed quite a bit since then.

    Plus it emphasises the following that you conveniently left out of your quoted article which applies to everyone...

    I read it, Klaaz. The upshot of the study is there is serious cause for concern regarding cardiovascular events for people taking cross sex hormones, and many more studies will probably emerge in the future to back this up.
    Just as there are problems for women taking HRT - which is why I will not consider it when the time comes. It's simply called medical research and people should know the facts.
    It's simple, really, not a political point at all, or me being transphobic or confrontational - there is an increased medical risk, seriously increased by the numbers, though that serious increase may be somewhat modified in a minor way by lifestyle factors.
    Twice as likely is a high risk. 4 times as likely is a high risk. That's all.

    Trans men - ie people born female - are more than 3 times as likely as biological females - to have a heart attack. Three times. Even with accounting for the fags etc that's fairly shocking stuff.


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    #286
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,389 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Calhoun wrote: »
    No did he complain about it or something? Seems to be the usual circle jerk of twitter happening on that link.

    Havent seen him respond to it directly but when i check his twitter he seems to make some very valid points protecting kids from adults.
    Oh yeah, he complained or something. And the charity ended up with nearly double their money following a crowd funding campaign inspired to put him back in his box.

    https://gcn.ie/graham-linehan-encourages-cruel-campaign-national-lottery-block-trans-kids-charity-funding/


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    #287
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Alot of maybe's there.

    Sure are - but it isn’t that the point? There’s heaps of maybes and unknowns around transition - and so transgender folk should be urging caution, particularly when it comes to prepubescent kids and even young adults as referenced above.

    There are for sure some bigoted people out there who will never accept transgender people - but I think many many ordinary decent people, who are accepting of trans folk, but who have very valid concerns particularly around kids are being shut down by the very people who should also be concerned.
    It's not all straightforward as you claim to be.

    Exactly.


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    #288
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    I read it, Klaaz. The upshot of the study is there is serious cause for concern regarding cardiovascular events for people taking cross sex hormones, and many more studies will probably emerge in the future to back this up.

    No there is not. There is a concern for those who are at risk due to lifestyle factors just like everyone else, we need to know the profile of people engaged in HRT which was not released and yes we need more in depth studies.
    Zorya wrote: »
    Just as there are problems for women taking HRT - which is why I will not consider it when the time comes. It's simply called medical research and people should know the facts.

    That's your call, plenty of women take HRT, are they dying en masse from heart attacks? If so, HRT would be withdrawn ya think?
    Zorya wrote: »
    It's simple, really, not a political point at all, or me being transphobic or confrontational - there is an increased medical risk, seriously increased by the numbers, though that serious increase may be somewhat modified in a minor way by lifestyle factors.
    Twice as likely is a high risk. 4 times as likely is a high risk. That's all.

    Trans men - ie people born female - are more than 3 times as likely as biological females - to have a heart attack. Three times. Even with accounting for the fags etc that's fairly shocking stuff.

    Yes, lifestyle factors, we need to know the profiles of people that have been studied.
    Testosterone is a powerful hormone and yes smoking would be a risk for everyone who take HRT.


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    #289
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Oh yeah, he complained or something. And the charity ended up with nearly double their money following a crowd funding campaign inspired to put him back in his box.

    https://gcn.ie/graham-linehan-encourages-cruel-campaign-national-lottery-block-trans-kids-charity-funding/

    Ah ok i didnt know that, i looked at the charity page. Seems to be an organization that is inclusive of parental oversight so dont know why he would be so against it.

    In a way he did it a favor it seems lol.


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    #290
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    No there is not. There is a concern for those who are at risk due to lifestyle factors just like everyone else, we need to know the profile of people engaged in HRT which was not released and yes we need more in depth studies.

    The full study only seems to be available if you have a subscription to Circulation, so we can only go on what was reported in the news article - and a quote from the researcher:

    Dr. Nota comments on the findings, saying, "In light of our results, we urge both physicians and transgender individuals to be aware of this increased cardiovascular risk."

    So yeah, I’d take that as there’s cause for concern. Which is hardly surprising really - its what you’d expect.
    It’s not a dig at you or transgender people either - it’s something that they should be made aware of, and be concerned about. That’s all.


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    #291
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You can call it what you like, but it certainly puts into context the stated concerns about protecting women from being raped.


    I'd have thought that anyone who was really genuinely concerned about protecting women from being raped might like to prioritise doing something about some of the very real, current, actual causes of women being raped, instead of obsessing with potential, future causes from other jurisdictions which don't really apply to the Irish legal scenario.

    Why not listen to actual women on this. But mums net is a mob right?


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    #292
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,389 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You can call it what you like, but it certainly puts into context the stated concerns about protecting women from being raped.


    I'd have thought that anyone who was really genuinely concerned about protecting women from being raped might like to prioritise doing something about some of the very real, current, actual causes of women being raped, instead of obsessing with potential, future causes from other jurisdictions which don't really apply to the Irish legal scenario.

    Why not listen to actual women on this. But mums net is a mob right?
    It's certainly a long way from representative or typical. Most women I listen to are concerned about the real, current violence against women rather than theoretical imported issues.


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